Project M Social Thread

[BAD]

I can't even think of any notable changes we made to Lucario 0_o.

Let's see there's...the percentage aura and aura stock being removed.

That alone drastically alters Lucario's character. Not only that, but it seems his disjointed hitbox's in his aerials have been removed. That is a VERY huge change.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The hitboxes ARE THE SAME.

And considering the melee engine where hitstun is high and aura makes a negligible difference in combos...and where he accumulates damage much more quickly due to the kinds of combos melee characters can do, and where he dies much, much sooner both due to the overall kill power of melee top tiers and their ability to land those moves much more reliably (meaning he has very little control of his aura at any point in the game)...no, changing his aura does NOT drastically alter him.

 

[Sterowent]

half of me wishes to have the old thread back; the other half of me thinks these discussions are intended to some extent here. but, really, all i want is Hype:M once more.

those random streams were sexy. despite the naysayers (yes, all three of them), things are looking bright for P:M's future development!

Spoiler

LET LUIGI'S REIGN CONTINUE FOR ETERNITY AND BEYOND

 

[Demon-oni]

I'm with Stero on this one. Come on Dant, show us that sexy wizardry you so often do!

 

[BAD]

The hitboxes ARE THE SAME.

And considering the melee engine where hitstun is high and aura makes a negligible difference in combos...and where he dies much, much sooner both due to the overall kill power of melee top tiers and their ability to land those moves much more reliably (meaning he doesn't even get to USE the upper end of his aura)...no, changing his aura does NOT drastically alter him.

Yes it does, at least in Brawl. Like I said, I can't play-test a Lucario version in Melee and see if he really needs this change to be viable in a Melee environment. Also taking up the time to power up instead of just being powered up at a certain percentage all the time has a drastic effect on how you play Lucario. For example:

If your facing a Fox, then you really can't take the time to power up to kill him, because Fox will just get in your face and UpSmash you if you do. However, if your at a certain percent you can reliably kill Fox without the risk of him killing you if you Power Up.

 

[Dantarion]

Whoever posted that Brawls engine is worse than Melee's....

You realize they are pratcically the same, right?
The scripting system for the characters even uses the same commands, and the same Action/Subaction/Attribute style setup.
If someone even says the work Havok to me like it means something against Brawl, I will literally step on you.


tldr, if the engine was drastically different from Melee, we wouldnt have been able to just "port" hitboxes, we wouldnt have been able to easily get the results we wanted.

The more people look into the Melee files, the more they are being found to be pretty similar to Brawl.

 

[Shell]

Ryu, what traits, in your eyes, constitute the core, most 'sacred' aspects of Lucario? Anything you want to elaborate on beyond him being a passive aggressive character with disjointed attacks? We have been continuously revising Lucario and will try to keep your feedback in mind.

 

[BAD]

Whoever posted that Brawls engine is worse than Melee's....

You realize they are pratcically the same, right?
The scripting system for the characters even uses the same commands, and the same Action/Subaction/Attribute style setup.
If someone even says the work Havok to me like it means something against Brawl, I will literally step on you.

It's people's bias that thinks Brawl has such a horrid engine.

 

[Crispy4001]

I think people's bias against Brawl is only going to hurt P:M in the end.

Very unlikely, unless we're talking about those that sold their copies. Or those that wouldn't know about P:M because they no longer care about smash.

For everyone else, it should be easy enough to explain that P:M's mechanics are rooted in Melee moreso than Brawl.

Melee had a good synergy with both offensive and defensive playstyles. For you developers to favor only the offensive playstyles...

...and neglect even passive-aggressive playstyles like Lucario to the point of changing him into a completely different character I think is a bit much.

There's a huge difference between a passive-aggressive play in Melee and a passive-aggressive play in Brawl.

Neglecting Lucario would be leaving him as is, Brawl physics and all. He'd genuinely be the same character, and consequently he'd suck balls in P:M. Is that what you want?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yes it does, at least in Brawl.

Which this is not

Like I said, I can't play-test a Lucario version in Melee and see if he really needs this change to be viable in a Melee environment.

The mechanic doesn't work in melee. That doesn't necessarily mean that Lucario can't.

Also taking up the time to power up instead of just being powered up at a certain percentage all the time has a drastic effect on how you play Lucario. For example:

If your facing a Fox, then you really can't take the time to power up to kill him, because Fox will just get in your face and UpSmash you if you do. However, if your at a certain percent you can reliably kill Fox without the risk of him killing you if you Power Up.

Being at the percent where aura gives you enough boost to up your kill power any reasonable amount...means being at kill percent, where Fox can drill->shine->upsmash you. And you can still find situations to charge in. Give up one tech chase to fully charge, or charge while they're off stage. Heck, you can charge while you're invincible from respawning, or charge while you're high off stage. And if the charging mechanic doesn't work, it will be tweaked further. If it still doesn't work it will be scrapped. That's how development works.

 

[iLink]

My 2cents as a Lucario main and melee player

Lucario's metagame isn't campy and keep away entirely. The reason one might think this is because he is generally beat out by most of the top or upper tiers up close like MK, Snake, or Marth. Besides being out-ranged most of the time, I also believe this partially has to do with how slow his attacks are. He honestly has very little options against them so he is forced to sort of play keep away the whole time because at low percents, his attacks do too little damage to risk being hit while at higher percents, you want to hold on to the stock.

Against characters that don't straight up beat him in close combat, he can be played very aggressively since he has such a strong mixup game with his aerials.

I played a supposed leak of p:m and gave lucario a try. At this point he didn't have the charge up downb but a sped up version of his old one. I have to say he played pretty solid, his wavedash distance gave him some good spacing options and generally let him travel easier. His fall speed also let him move about quicker and I didn't have too much trouble adjusting. The one thing that did constantly bug me was the aura ability because it hindered me more then helped when I tried to play aggressive. (I also believe he would be a better character in general if he didn't have it in brawl as well) I wholeheartedly embrace the removal of it in the later sets I've seen.

The one thing I noticed that kind of worried me from later sets was the removal of some aura hitboxes. One of Lucario's biggest problems in brawl was that he was just barely out-ranged by higher tiers and it forced him to play a lot more defensive. Space with attacks like fair and such are a big part of his game and not being able to rely on it kind of worries me.

I know everything is subject to change and such and I haven't played the later sets so I honestly don't know how he plays, just giving some feedback on what I've seen and think.

EDIT: bleh i hate posting at the bottom of the page

 

[Dark Sonic]

The hitboxes didn't change Q_Q

 

[BAD]

Very unlikely, unless we're talking about those that sold their copies. Or those that wouldn't know about P:M because they no longer care about smash.

For everyone else, it should be easy enough to explain that P:M's mechanics are rooted in Melee moreso than Brawl.

There's a huge difference between a passive-aggressive play in Melee and a passive-aggressive play in Brawl.

Neglecting Lucario would be leaving him as is, Brawl physics and all. He'd be the same character, and he'd also suck balls in P:M.

 

[Vigilante]

I will repeat it again... Animations changed, hitboxes are the same.

Good night.

 

[iLink]

The hitboxes didn't change Q_Q

Could I get a link to a recent video of Lucario? The only one I saw seemed like he just sort of kicked his foot out when he did fair without aura coming out.

EDIT: also sorry if it was stated earlier, I might have missed it while typing.

 

[BAD]

Ryu, what traits, in your eyes, constitute the core, most 'sacred' aspects of Lucario? Anything you want to elaborate on beyond him being a passive aggressive character with disjointed attacks? We have been continuously revising Lucario and will try to keep your feedback in mind.

Shell, you should seriously go to the Lucario boards for this. But from what Red Ryu has posted, I know for a fact that he knows what he is talking about as well.

Red Ryu make sure you tell Shell exactly why Lucario is such a unique cahracter and why taking out his aura is really bad.

 

[Shell]

Removing graphics is not the same thing as removing hitboxes.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The graphic effects are not there, as we needed an indicator to show which moves got powered up with the new system.

The actual hitboxes are the same, even though it doesn't show a big glowing aura blast out of his feet.


Also, need I reiterate that the game engine changes Lucario far more than anything the dev team has done to him (which is very little)?

 

[jahkzheng]

Ryu, what traits, in your eyes, constitute the core, most 'sacred' aspects of Lucario? Anything you want to elaborate on beyond him being a passive aggressive character with disjointed attacks? We have been continuously revising Lucario and will try to keep your feedback in mind.

That's the PR we want.

In respect to Lucario... I never could get a handle on the whole taking damage to KO with him thing. I personally like how the new "aura" system works. It's a shame his counter couldn't be improved and kept at the same time, at least not in a very streamlined way...... or wait!

Lucario counter/aura charge downB idea:
It's so simple... the aura charge counters if someone tries to hit Lucario out of it. To make charging not completely untouchable, it should have a short startup that can be attacked with impunity if you can attack soon enough... and a bit of a cooldown that's attackable as well. Good idea? Or does this possibly make this move broken... I tried to account for that.

 

[Sora-kun]

The hitboxes didn't change Q_Q

That was the third time.
Quoting this for a 4th. Anyone who complains about his hitboxes being changed should be ***** nado'd for 5 hours straight by m2k. No items. You use Ganon only. Final Destination.

 

[Ulevo]

By the way, how come Lucarios Sword Dance was dropped? It was mentioned it didn't work out, but what specifically was holding the idea back? It looks pretty awesome in the videos it was featured in.

 

[B.W.]

Exceptions that prove the rule. I mean obviously Melee has some defensive elements, but you cited examples that are very much contrary to what most Melee gameplay is about.

I'd also like to address the claim that character changes between Smash games have been fairly minimal, and P:M is somehow in the wrong for changing characters more substantially:

1. Moveset changes to characters in P:M are in no way outside the bounds established by previous games. Consider, for example, the changes to Falco's moveset from Melee to Brawl. I think it's obvious that he was changed substantially - the adjustments to Lucario's moveset in P:M (thus far) are dwarfed in comparison. Seriously, what is so radically changed about Lucario other than his aura? That's a single move. Shanus has already explained that his disjoint has been mostly retained - what you're seeing are only animation changes.

2. The majority of moveset changes so far are not nearly as radical as you and others are making them out to be. With the exception of Wario and the returning Melee top tiers, most characters have only seen a couple outright move replacements - most existing moves have merely been tweaked or had their animations altered, not scrapped altogether. Even if the "tweaks" precipitate an adjustment in character playstyle (see: Snake), changing moves in this way has occured between every successive smash game. No big deal.

3. I stand by my first two points, but... Why does anyone assume the precedent in character design established in Brawl has any reason to stay? Not that I'm arguing for scrapping every Brawl design, but you must realize this game is not intended to have many similarities with Brawl. The majority of the game engine is being changed - why do people think that characters are somehow exempt from that? The Brawl designs are in no way "canon"; they were merely one interpretation of the characters. This is a new game, and it is thus fine to come up with new interpretations.

Basically, the problem as I see it is that Brawl players want their mains to stay similar to how they were in Brawl. They should instead treat this as a new game - not a mere adjustment of Brawl - and find a character that works for them.

(Also I just want to note that I'm responding in a civil manner to your post, not calling you a troll, you're entitled to your own opinions, all respect, etc.)

I want to add to this a little by saying, think of how a lot of Melee players felt when they made the transition from Melee to Brawl (mostly the ones that stayed). Many mains had to be switched up because they weren't the same as they were in Melee despite the fact everyone wanted them to remain mostly the same.

Now I'd say we need to treat this as a different game, which has already been said. Things are subject to change. Some may change drastically, some very slightly. Point is it's going to happen. Characters might end up playing much differently, some will play mostly the same. If we had to deal with the fact that Sakurai changed things so drastically you will have to suck it up as we did while the P:M team changes things. It's basically a new smash game, you might have to end up playing a new character if you decide to play it like the Melee players did. Otherwise you can take the path of previous Melee players and continue to play your own game.

Really that's all you can do. Team P:M is going to do what they think is right just the same as Sakurai did what he thought was right.

 

[Dark Sonic]

By the way, how come Lucarios Sword Dance was dropped? It was mentioned it didn't work out, but what specifically was holding the idea back? It looks pretty awesome in the videos it was featured in.

Swords dance is the name of the new charge down B

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I can't even think of any notable changes we made to Lucario 0_o.

Let's see there's...the percentage aura and aura stock being removed.
A few Gfx (nothing to do with hitbox sizes)
Swords Dance down B instead of counter (which didn't work and would be a pain to make work).
Up B having a hitbox.
Throws (everybody's throws got reworked).


What exactly makes him...not Lucario? Heck LINK had more changes than that and nobody's complaining about him.

You mentioned Aura which is my biggest concern.

The Gfx I have some issues since the blue clouds at least let people know why they were being hit. Fair and Utilt have some larger hitboxes.

Made him less Floaty, which helped him combo in Brawl btw.

Turned his roll from the best in Brawl to terrible in ProjectM, he was joked as Rollcario for a reason.

Some of his combos at low % were completely removed in favor of whatever people wanted him to to, apparently jab cancelled, Dtilt to Uair works in ProjectM. His previous legit combos could have been translated into ProjectM easily like how the combos of Melee were for Melee characters.

Exceptions that prove the rule. I mean obviously Melee has some defensive elements, but you cited examples that are very much contrary to what most Melee gameplay is about.

I'd also like to address the claim that character changes between Smash games have been fairly minimal, and P:M is somehow in the wrong for changing characters more substantially:

1. Moveset changes to characters in P:M are in no way outside the bounds established by previous games. Consider, for example, the changes to Falco's moveset from Melee to Brawl. I think it's obvious that he was changed substantially - the adjustments to Lucario's moveset in P:M (thus far) are dwarfed in comparison. Seriously, what is so radically changed about Lucario other than his aura? That's a single move. Shanus has already explained that his disjoint has been mostly retained - what you're seeing are only animation changes.

Falco was changed to make him less like Fox and more of his own character, same thing with Toon Link/Young Link.

and I listed the changes above that weren't.

2. The majority of moveset changes so far are not nearly as radical as you and others are making them out to be. With the exception of Wario and the returning Melee top tiers, most characters have only seen a couple outright move replacements - most existing moves have merely been tweaked or had their animations altered, not scrapped altogether. Even if the "tweaks" precipitate an adjustment in character playstyle (see: Snake), changing moves in this way has occured between every successive smash game. No big deal.

This is quite different actually.

Characters did have some changes through smash, but look at Link, his move set for the most part, with the exceptions of property changes, has stayed the same. The only extreme changes were as said, Falco and other character who many people who reviewed the game said were too clone like. We know as competitive players they are different with traits but to the average person, they were too clonelike, so characters got changes, Falco being the one who got the most changes.

At least that is my guess on that. For this, I don't see a purpose to override and change some characters move sets that drastically. Melee got to keep it's similarities why can't some Brawl characters keep some of their, even more so with Aura which defines a lot of Lucario.

3. I stand by my first two points, but... Why does anyone assume the precedent in character design established in Brawl has any reason to stay? Not that I'm arguing for scrapping every Brawl design, but you must realize this game is not intended to have many similarities with Brawl. The majority of the game engine is being changed - why do people think that characters are somehow exempt from that? The Brawl designs are in no way "canon"; they were merely one interpretation of the characters. This is a new game, and it is thus fine to come up with new interpretations.

Because with smash history, character didn't get revisions to the point where traits and such were completely changed.

Fox has been a fast faller, Kirby has stayed light, Fox is a fast character, someone like Bowser is a slow character.

Lucario was made a lot heavier, had his aura removed, and lost one of his best traits his godly roll. I could understand the roll being nerfed a bit, but they made it close to garbage. Much shorter distance with a lot more lag on it.

Basically, the problem as I see it is that Brawl players want their mains to stay similar to how they were in Brawl. They should instead treat this as a new game - not a mere adjustment of Brawl - and find a character that works for them.

(Also I just want to note that I'm responding in a civil manner to your post, not calling you a troll, you're entitled to your own opinions, all respect, etc.)

I want my main to stay consistent with in a series, wouldn't you find it weird if Fox was suddenly not a fast faller like he has been for the past three games, started carrying an axe, and was slow?

That is one of my issues with Lucario.

The hitboxes ARE THE SAME.

And considering the melee engine where hitstun is high and aura makes a negligible difference in combos...and where he accumulates damage much more quickly due to the kinds of combos melee characters can do, and where he dies much, much sooner both due to the overall kill power of melee top tiers and their ability to land those moves much more reliably (meaning he has very little control of his aura at any point in the game)...no, changing his aura does NOT drastically alter him.

If you left the system at 0-182%, well yeah he would have more issues, or you could change the system my lowering the max and mid point if he had issues like that instead of completely removing it so he is at a set base of 75%. Even looking at how the system works.

3.4 Aura Multiplier

This is the formula for the aura multiplier:

where

In coin mode, each coin counts as a stock for the purpose of the stock multiplier.

The damage multiplier is in the interval [0.7, 1.4]. It is 0.7 for all damages <= 20% and 1.4 for all damages >= 170%. It is exactly 1 only when the damage is 75%. A very good approximation for the damage multiplier can be found by reading the value from this chart:

For example, the damage multiplier for 95% is 1.09.

This chart was created by using quintic interpolation between some exact values that we worked out.

Spoiler

Changing is aura is a large change to his fundamentals, it is a large part of remembering what works when and what doesn't. It is a character trait of Lucario in smash that made him who he was. A lot his game was also remembering when you should use what, and why, these were all key to the character and gave him depth in a lot of match-ups.

Also it would lessen his usefulness in teams where his aura works on every other player in a doubles match.

That is my issue, this is a much larger part of him than people think it is.

 

[iLink]

I've mained Lucario forever and play him more then well and I can say that the aura hampers him more then helps him in most cases. I'm sure a lot of Lucarios would agree with me on this.

It basically hurts the player for doing well while helps those that aren't playing as well IMO.

 

[B.W.]

Swords dance is the name of the new charge down B

Really? This whole time I've been calling it HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a tribute to DBZ. I even think it should have made the "PEEEWWW shweet shweet shweet shweet" noise too. What a bummer

 

[Dantarion]

I think the waiting aspect is what we want to change.

I.e. Lucario at low percents shouldn't feel excessively weak, and Lucario at high percents shouldnt be so good in comparison that you try to stay alive at all costs instead of attacking.

Weak Lucario? Doesn't wanna rush in.
Strong Lucario? Doesn't wanna rush in.

To some aspect its spacing, to some aspect its camping.
The goal is to give lucario a "I get away, then I charge, and THEN I GET IN THERE" aspect to him.
You shouldnt have to miraculously live to high % in order to be strong.

 

[BAD]

That is my issue, this is a much larger part of him than people think it is.

EXACTLY!! If you P:M developers remove this trait, then that essentially means the end of Lucario as we all knew him.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Whoever posted that Brawls engine is worse than Melee's....

You realize they are pratcically the same, right?
The scripting system for the characters even uses the same commands, and the same Action/Subaction/Attribute style setup.
If someone even says the work Havok to me like it means something against Brawl, I will literally step on you.


tldr, if the engine was drastically different from Melee, we wouldnt have been able to just "port" hitboxes, we wouldnt have been able to easily get the results we wanted.

The more people look into the Melee files, the more they are being found to be pretty similar to Brawl.

Oh Dant. Dant Dant Dant. I thought I wouldn't have to explain something like this to you.

I don't mean the literal coding engine. Rather, it was an allusion to the flow and style of its core gameplay. The way that Brawl works outside of executables and command types is vastly different from the way that Melee works outside of executables and command types.

If they were so alike, you guys wouldn't have had to change nearly as much stuff as you guys have, regardless of the relative ease of it.

Oh you scientific types and your obsession with minute details over the bigger picture <3.

 

[iLink]

The only reason it's such a large part of him is because it is basically forced on us. It never really even made sense to have it to begin with.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only reason it's such a large part of him is because it is basically forced on us. It never really even made sense to have it to begin with.

I don't see what didn't make sense about it...?

 

[Crispy4001]

If I wanted to be silly I wouldn't have replied to you with anything more than a picture.

So that said, if you want to try to actually respond to my post instead of posting memes, I'll be around.

 

[BAD]

The only reason it's such a large part of him is because it is basically forced on us. It never really even made sense to have it to begin with.

He is described in the Pokedex as an Aura pokemon. So it does make sense really.

If I wanted to be silly I wouldn't have replied with anything more than a picture.

So that said, if you want to try to actually respond to my post, I'll be around.

You were serious? Fooled me....

 

[iLink]

I mean, there was never an aspect in pokemon that would warrant the ability and iirc, he didn't poses such ability in the anime or movie. We just tack on the name "aura" to this ability.

 

[Crispy4001]

You were serious? Fooled me....

Great, no meme jpg, we're stepping up the level of discourse now. Soon I might even get you to address a point I made.

And that strawman image wasn't meant to fool you. I couldn't have made any more blantant what it was referring to.

 

[Ulevo]

Swords dance is the name of the new charge down B

Oh, so it's still in? I was under the impression it was removed. If it hasn't been then that's great.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I mean, there was never an aspect in pokemon that would warrant the ability and iirc, he didn't poses such ability in the anime or movie. We just tack on the name "aura" to this ability.

Funny,

I don't recall the Ice Climbers having half of their moves from their original game.

Or Captain Falcon.

Or R.O.B.

etc...

 

[iLink]

IC, CF, and ROB were never really established characters as far as who they were or what they could do to be put into a fighting game. (inb4smashisntafightingame) All IC ever did was jump and swing their hammers while CF was always in the pilot's seat.

Lucario is already a pretty well established character being in a game where they fight and have attacks and even being able to see him in motion in the anime/movie.

Tho arguing about this point seems pretty trivial.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Thinking about stuff like this makes me want to play Vs. Ice Climber again, even though I've already wasted enough of my life playing it.

 

[jahkzheng]

My understanding is that swords dance works in such a way that it you can't achieve its full potential in a single charge, you have to use swords dance 3 or 4 times to simulate 180% damage or whatever the cap is (sorry I can't remember). If I understand correctly, then you can have different levels of power based on your number of charges. That makes the idea I stated earlier seem more viable. And for the sake of it hopefully getting noticed, I'll repost it... lol...

In respect to Lucario... I never could get a handle on the whole taking damage to KO with him thing. I personally like how the new "aura" system works. It's a shame his counter couldn't be improved and kept at the same time, at least not in a very streamlined way...... or wait!

Lucario counter/aura charge downB idea:
It's so simple... the aura charge counters if someone tries to hit Lucario out of it. To make charging not completely untouchable, it should have a short startup that can be attacked with impunity if you can attack soon enough... and a bit of a cooldown that's attackable as well. Good idea? Or does this possibly make this move broken... I tried to account for that.

As far as the argument for keeping brawl's aura system... I honestly don't see the problem with simulating damage with a charge rather than actually letting yourself get hit. If taking the damage is really important enough, wouldn't making sword's dance inflict damage be the answer? I still wonder what the allure of taking damage is... especially in a game that's going to have scary combos that I wouldn't want to possibly allow myself to fall into. However, I'm not a Lucario main and maybe I wont be able to understand :/. I do know, however, that I couldn't get into Lucario in brawl mainly because I didn't like the fact that I couldn't really kill until I was almost dead.