I figured his "charge" wouldn't go away until he died... just like in brawl. And requiring 4 or 5 charges for his aura to reach full potential would take time like accumulating damage... especially if we are talking about that counter actually having to be activated to make the charge work - which incidentally doesn't promote camping but a defensive playstyle that revolves around reads.
In the counter activiated case, the move should be fast. In the activated regardless case, it should be slower or at least more punishable. The counter activated style is more in line with brawl as it requires getting "hit" to increase your aura strength. In that respect, I'd believe that if you couldn't keep the brawl aura system, you'd prefer this. Also, if the counter activated aura is going to be fast and beneficial, then maybe its actual counter should be weak but give enough time to not be punished immediately afterwards.
And thanks for responding, lol.
So does his aura go away when he dies or does it go away with time? Because if it goes away with time, that promotes camping Lucario until his boosts go away with time. If it is by stock, then it would fit his style a bit more as his brawl counter part in ways.
I wouldn't have as much of a problem if it weren't the fact that it was attached to his "lore" As he comes closer to death his aura gets stronger to protect him, I really want to keep consistency and making a system that fit him perfectly. Getting beat up to get stronger is what he is about.
The new Pro Lucarios dont really fancy me though? Like Lee Martin doesn't look like I could fit in to watching. I still feel exhilaration watching most azen vs m2k matches. Ill check out trela in the afternoon due to its almost 6am here.
DT wasn't useless nor wothless and it had it uses bro. I never had a time to use it against ICs blizzard and I know at low percentages it could combo, but I know sometime if placed in the wrong direction that it could lead to an SD. Its a ridged move in situation that I know I wouldn't trust in most circumstances.
Although in relation to jahkzheng idea for his down be being charging and counter. That depending on how much you have stored up and timed right... It could lead to a decent to big aura explosion.
But honestly it almost seems to much to be in a single move to be fair.
Tp the promoting of camping: Nha it depends on the player, but over camping isn't needed. Your aura should be used close up and most likely close up then focused on aura spheres.
Watch Lee vs Rain, at 3:20 is amazing for the next 15-20 seconds at what he does.
Dt again as I said, if people removed it, wouldn't be a huge deal since it's situational but I just wanted to clarify things about the move.
Honestly, i would love double team more if you had more control over where you could appear. I would love to punish jumpers by appearing right above where they hit me. that might be too much work for the devs to come up with those animations though. The only other thing i can think of for that move is to do what Bbrawl did to it and make it unblockable...
Actually you can control it.
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Most people just don't learn how to do it.
I seriously can't grasp the idea of someone wanting a mechanic like aura stock to stay. It really doesn't affect me regardless, as I won't touch Lucario with a ten foot pole anyway. If you guys want your character to have to soak up massive amounts of damage to get a kill, be my guest.
I just want to understand the logic here. I've read the past 7 pages of this thread, and it still doesn't make any sense to me.
If I can kill people under 100% in Brawl with it, just think of what could happen in Melee where people die much sooner.
A character who plays passive aggressively passive equates to defensive play, since by definition passive aggressiveness requires an action for you react to.
The only character in brawl you can remotely play aggro is MK, and this has been cited by multiple pros hundreds of times (M2K especially). No matter how you spin it Red Ryu, you can't argue against it. Lucario is and will be a defensive character as long as he plays like brawl. The fact is against fast characters with lower lag in a melee environment, his approach options become nullified as fair can easily get outspaced leaving him mostly with the option AS camping, trying to bait them into never ending uthrows, and dair. As somebody who has played the game (which you have not) as well as lucario in B+ (an analog with higher gravity and less landing lag), its pretty sad to see how lucario is forced to play. Go watch Lee Martin play B+ or PM. There are plenty of vids, and I can tell you nobody would want to play PM if it had that. We are aiming for a fun game, but I think you and I have a different opinion on fun (see our differing opinions on the melee vs brawl thread where you cite you prefer brawl "combo vids" whereas I prefer melee vids). As I reiterated earlier, we don't want "passive aggressive" gameplay. We don't want you to pick up PM and to just be playing brawl. That is what justifies changing brawl characters in the OP. If we didn't change them, all you would have is melee + brawl characters who get outpaced in every form of the game. No matter what, a characters metagame will change in this environment, and a brawl metagame in melee is not what we want. The thing you don't seem to understand is our mission statement. When it clearly defines "Project M aims to capture the essence of what made Melee a truly great game in our eyes," it in no way shape or form says "We aim to change as little as possible to reflect brawl and leave brawl characters as low tiers while melee characters will be the best again." Re-read Shell's quote on captain falcon in brawl. If you can't accept this, then you do not understand this projects goal.
You see, while I do differ in likes and dislikes, I understand this and accept it. Still enter Melee tournaments and play the game and respect that the game is more aggressive. I can understand some changes where a character is pretty much a camp and run character, Toon Link.
My issue is the fact people don't seem to understand how the character worked, and seem to think he was nothing but camp and run away. His fair in Brawl, doubt it will be in Project M either, was not the most disjointed move but being a 4 frame with very short cool down and transcendent priority made up for it. Generally his approaching invovled spaced tilts/jabs, fair/rising nair, or grabs/pivot grabs. His has approach options, granted he has some issues with shield and having poor grab range outside of his pivot grab doesn't help him.
The fact you brought up Aura Sphere camping proved even more people don't know this character, camping aura sphere never works. It stops working when people start using the shield button to slow moving projectiles, they are very very good at punishing in the air, landing and used as a mix-up, 26% is nothing to laugh at with max aura. It can be used fired as smaller ones as a means to do slight pressure, but with a -10 on block the pressure they give is very minimal.
Never ending Uthrow CG only works on 4 characters, at specific % with aura, 38% when under 4oish%, 25 from 40% to around 140%, all of which are fast fallers. Dair is good to cover from below, but baiting it and hitting him from the sides is a lot easy, not to mention if he doesn't SH it he is more vulnerable after using it.
Really all of this is coming off to me as people who don't understand him or did much research outside of theory craft and when Lee played him in Brawl+, M, etc. Thinks like his Uthrow CG I don't expect people to know, it's only on 4 characters and not widely talked about, things like camping Aura Sphere not being effective I would expect people to know.
It's another persevered notion that defensive play wasn't a part of Melee when it quite in fact was. Peach has issues when Fox and Falco camp her with lasers and force her to approach, in melee. Heck, Peach herself isn't what I would call an aggressive character, she can approach and has the options to, but watching platform camp for Dsmashs, or float in safety to avoid being hit. Yeah she has combos and is good at edge guarding, but to say she didn't have her fair share of campy or defensive play style is foolhardy. Fox is versatile enough where players can play him in different ways. Like he can be aggressive he can also run away and camp lasers if he really wanted to.
This project outlined a goal to balance defensive and aggressive play with aggressive having a slight edge, I haven't seen much to really define the defensive aspects as everyone only focus is how they can be aggressive and combo. I really see this as failing to follow the original outlined goals since while people say they wanted a balance with aggro slightly winning, I see nothing wrong with some characters being more defensive that others, not everyone is Fox, Falcon, Sheik, etc. There are characters like Peach, Jigglypuff, Zelda, etc. who play more defensively than others do and aren't rush down.
There are characters like Snake, Toon Link, etc. who need revisions to fit Project M, because they were more defensive. Characters like Zero Suit Samus, and Lucario only need have their moves changed slightly to be more aggressive. Brawl characters were changed to their Melee counter parts to be almost identical, why can we do the same by simply tweaking some things with the Brawl exclusive ones, not just Lucario, that can fit and play more aggressive versions of their Brawl counter parts.
Sorry if this is annoying or something I don't want to come off like that, but this is just my take on it and how I think Project M should go about it to fit the goals on the OP. Thats all.
