Project M Social Thread

[Crispy4001]

from my experience, higher level Young Link players use arrows least often out of all of his projectiles.

It's because of that endlag IMO. Conceptually in Melee I think they were solid, but used against faster characters it was just a little too easy to punish. I don't think the wheel needs to be reinvented (or abandoned for TL's).

 

[Laijin]

It's because of that endlag IMO. Conceptually in Melee I think they were solid, but used against faster characters it was just a little too easy to punish. I don't think the wheel needs to be reinvented (or abandoned for TL's).

Arrows are almost useless with YL not because of the end lag, but because its just a terrible projectile. His bombs and rangs are much more effective and better.

Why is it so bad? Well the main reason being that it doesn't go very far at all unless you take the time to charge it, heavily breaking up YL's movement into standing still and charging it to go where you want it to go. TL's arrow fixes this greatly since you dont have to charge it for it to go a good distance where you need it to go. A projectile that doesn't go very far when not charged or taking the time to charge it up is not useful at all and I'm mostly referring to the drop. I speak for all good Young Link players when I say this: We rarely ever use his arrows. If we're planning on making him a better character, I'd say thats one of the things that doesn't need to return.
If your wondering, the distance covered by the "drop" from the arrows can easily be made up with his boomerang and his bombs.

But maybe give Toon Link "Fire" arrows and have them stun more so we can combo off of them? The good thing about Young Link's arrows was that when we do use them and hit someone with them, we actually able to easily combo off of it.
I prefer this idea.

 

[Laijin]

Double post:

I'd like to first off say thanks for listening to my thoughts.

I just came up with an idea for the bombs since you guys mentioned multi hitting bombs are not currently working? Well:

1.Why not just make the stun from being hit with a bomb a bit longer? Being able to combo off the bombs is the most important part here and currently we can't very easily do that because of how they work. So if you can't fix the bugs with multi hitting bombs, this would be a fine alternative

2. If we z-drop a bomb, if the person only touches the outside of it can they take 1%, be stunned for a very short amount of time, and not have the bomb blow up in their face? YL's bombs work like this and this technique is used when someone is in your face and your holding a bomb. So your just z-drop it and n-air them. (works better if both of you are in the air) It'll be cool if this returned as well if its not already like that. Try out exactly what I just explained if your not sure what I'm talking about with Young Link

 

[Strong Badam]

1. Hitstun isn't move-specific. It's based off of launch speed. So we'd have to change the actual knockback or damage of it to change the amount of hitstun.

2. I understand what you're talking about. I'm not sure if this can be implemented, but we can try.

 

[Crispy4001]

Arrows are almost useless with YL not because of the end lag, but because its just a terrible projectile. His bombs and rangs are much more effective and better.

Why is it so bad? Well the main reason being that it doesn't go very far at all unless you take the time to charge it, heavily breaking up YL's movement into standing still and charging it to go where you want it to go. TL's arrow fixes this greatly since you dont have to charge it for it to go a good distance where you need it to go. A projectile that doesn't go very far when not charged or taking the time to charge it up is not useful at all and I'm mostly referring to the drop. I speak for all good Young Link players when I say this: We rarely ever use his arrows. If we're planning on making him a better character, I'd say thats one of the things that doesn't need to return.
If your wondering, the distance covered by the "drop" from the arrows can easily be made up with his boomerang and his bombs.

But maybe give Toon Link "Fire" arrows and have them stun more so we can combo off of them? The good thing about Young Link's arrows was that when we do use them and hit someone with them, we actually able to easily combo off of it.
I prefer this idea.

To that I'd say Young Link's arrows were clearly not designed to be used in the same vein as Link's. They're not a long range weapon. The opportunity it'd take to charge it is better spent pulling out (another) bomb or throwing the 'rang.

Shorter range projectiles do exist in Melee. I'd sooner classify YL's arrows with the likes of Dr. Mario's pills than as a counterpart to Link's arrows.

I think making them shoot further uncharged and giving them fire stun and more of it is asking for trouble. It shouldn't be possible to shoot someone with a projectile from far away and directly combo them from it (... unless were talking a bomb throw followup or something). What you're doing then is essentially giving TL an uber version of Zero Suit's stun laser.

And that's exactly the reason why the fire stun made sense in Melee the way it was. It hardly lasted, meaning that the arrow was best used mid-range. Now if firing a single arrow wasn't such a DEDICATION because of the end lag, it'd have some real use...

 

[Archangel]

Young link needs spammable Arrows. His should be faster or have less charge time or something. Simply because his range still isn't great.

also too bad I missed out on the pokemon debate. That looked really entertaining.

 

[Laijin]

I think making them shoot further uncharged and giving them fire stun and more of it isn't a smart idea. It shouldn't be possible to shoot someone with a projectile from far away and directly combo them from it (... unless were talking a bomb throw followup or something). What you're doing then is essentially giving TL an uber version of Zero Suit's stun laser.
.

Well. I suggested the fire stun since it'll be a good replacement for not being able to combo off of bombs. Come on man...we gotta be able to combo off at least one of our projectiles.

 

[Eldiran]

That's how they work now...Right?

I suppose it is... I kind of thought it was more of a check to see if the bomb touches an enemy and if so, explode and then create a hitbox, but maybe not.

I don't really know how it works, I was just throwing out ideas...

 

[Juushichi]

Laijin, about T/YL juggling from uair... isn't that what TL's bair is supposed to accomplish for you? It seems like it does the same thing.

 

[Laijin]

Laijin, about T/YL juggling from uair... isn't that what TL's bair is supposed to accomplish for you? It seems like it does the same thing.

Huh? How does his b-air work? I have the perfect example in mind for the u-air but the vid is not up yet lol. I'll post it as soon as its uploaded.

 

[nicaboy]

laijin how are you liking pm so far?

 

[Laijin]

laijin how are you liking pm so far?

Its pretty fun. Just gotta adjust to it But overall its looking quite nice so far

 

[Plum]

I think making them shoot further uncharged and giving them fire stun and more of it is asking for trouble. It shouldn't be possible to shoot someone with a projectile from far away and directly combo them from it (... unless were talking a bomb throw followup or something). What you're doing then is essentially giving TL an uber version of Zero Suit's stun laser.

Consider the level that characters need to be able to compete on to be viable in Project M.
They have to deal with Melee and Brawl top tiers, so they will have a wide variety of characters that do different things extremely well. You have to compete with ******** grabs, aerial mobility and safety, long disjointed range, extremely effective combos, characters literally immune to the concept of gimping, characters with projectiles that in some cases do everything you wish your projectiles could do and more, etc...

You basically need something that you can abuse that no other character can abuse in the way you can to be viable. Every high tier character has something along those lines, and you can't just think something is too good because quite frankly other characters DO have things that are "too good." Too good in the way that Sheik's Dthrow or Falco's lasers are too good.

 

[Sox]

make the arrows a spike

 

[Shell]

Lajin, what would you do to Melee Young Link to make him a more viable character? Try to consider things which would specifically help his worst matchups.

I think the killing power of the B+ Fair and combo ability of the B+ Bair, and kill power of B+ U-smash are helpful (although I understand your points about u-smash and we're talking about it in the PMBR), and the Zair helps his range a bit. However, what do you think? Would those tools be enough vs. Sheik / Fox / Falcon? Would you do anything else in addition, or differently?

 

[Rikana]

make the arrows a spike

lol I suggested that over a year ago for Brawl+ Link's arrows as a joke.

 

[Anth0ny]

Spiking arrows would be hilarious.

And to be honest, not even that overpowered, if the speed and distances aren't changed from Melee

 

[Laijin]

Lajin, what would you do to Melee Young Link to make him a more viable character? Try to consider things which would specifically help his worst matchups.

I think the killing power of the B+ Fair and combo ability of the B+ Bair, and kill power of B+ U-smash are helpful (although I understand your points about u-smash and we're talking about it in the PMBR), and the Zair helps his range a bit. However, what do you think? Would those tools be enough vs. Sheik / Fox / Falcon? Would you do anything else in addition, or differently?

I'm talking strictly about melee here:

There are plenty problems that YL has with the top tier match ups(and a couple of others), but the absolute biggest problem in my opinion and experience is this:

Those characters are able to move and act quicker than YL can ever dream of doing. Lets take Fox for example, that guy can literally run circles around YL and not give him any time to breath. All of your close range moves do not either come out fast enough to stop Fox's oncoming onslaught or your moves simply do not have enough priority to also stop his onslaught. YL's worst match ups are against characters that are a lot faster than him.

His second biggest problem is inability to kill fast enough. Sure he can rack damage pretty well and camp, but he has trouble killing and finishing off his opponents while all the top tier characters have absolutely no issues with this. His main offensive for finishing opponents off are to hit them with a projectile(safest approach) and combo them into a kill move(u-air, n-air, d-air depending on the character). Problem with this is the character always has to be a pretty high %s to guarantee the kill while Fox/Sheik/Falcon have absolutely no problems with finishing their opponents off and can do with ease(Fox has a ton of kills moves + set ups. Sheik can simply f-tilt or d-throw to f-air or whatever she wants to do. Falcon can has a million setups -> knee).


Of course there are other problems, but these are his main issues. If these two problems can be fixed/overcome, Young Link would be a lot better. I'm currently working and thinking up new ways to overcome this problem(in melee), but obviously its not easy cause if it was he wouldn't be low tier in every tier list ever made. haha.

 

[Shell]

Okay, we can look at move speed and setups into kill moves.

 

[GP&B]

Move speed is arguably one of Link's biggest problems too so it doesn't surprise me to see the same reflected in YL.

 

[Shell]

Yes, but Link now has the range, damage, setups, and raw killing power to make up for it.

 

[JCaesar]

Not to mention AGT zairs are a pretty slick new movement option...

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, Link looks really legit so far. I can't wait to see everything get rounded out with him.

 

[FrozenHobo]

credit to mastaklo

 

[_Spade_]

You should work on fixing being able to c-stick uair after trying to do a shorthop.

In vBrawl, if you tried to do that, it would always make you do an upsmash for some reason

 

[GP&B]

Yeeeeeeeeeeesssss!

 

[Strong Badam]

You should work on fixing being able to c-stick uair after trying to do a shorthop.

In vBrawl, if you tried to do that, it would always make you do an upsmash for some reason

that would be you sucking too much and inputting the u-air during jumpsquat (upsmash) rather than after you're in the air (up-air).

 

[Sora-kun]

Yeah, Link looks really legit so far.

I'll be the judge of that. Formerly being the 4th best link in the world before i quit him i would know.




edit: did i say 4th? i mean't 40,000th. Obviously i'm someone special.





edit2: kewl castle thingy.

 

[Shadic]

Link had quite a few minor speed buffs on his moves, actually. He's still no Toon Link, but like SHeLL said, he's got range and power.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i'm very disappointed none of you recognize this:

you should all be ashamed.

 

[Laijin]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows what that is man

 

[stingers]

whats that? soul calibur, right?

 

[FrozenHobo]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows what that is man

edit2: kewl castle thingy.

you'd think so....

 

[Laijin]

you'd think so....

Well everyone knows that castle picture you just posted is from Metroid. Like who has not played that? Seriously. A classic nintendo game guys.

 

[Sora-kun]

you'd think so....

sarcasm bro =/ it's from smash 64.

 

[FrozenHobo]

if you say so...

 

[GP&B]

I thought the "Yeeeeeeeeeessss!" I posted clearly indicated that I knew what that was.
<3 the practically pinball-like triangle slopes though I have a feeling that the physics won't allow for the same hilarious rebounds that SSB64 had with those.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Will the moving inferior part of Peach's Castle have ledges?

Oh well, if the Clone Engine works, what you gonna do?

Include Young Link too and rework Toon Link?

Or it would be too much heroes wearing green tunics?

 

[Laijin]

Whats the clone engine?

 

[Shell]

Too many Links.

We are going to communicate closely with Lajin and try to get a good compromise which appeals to Y link players.

Edit: Dantarion has been working on an engine which loads custom characters.