as far as I know, yea. I just throw bairs out until something sticks and occasionally look for janky **** like CC dtilt or sneaking under her aerieals with usmash.
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
AvengerAngel
Smash Journeyman
I honestly think that Jigglypuff is the easiest character to kill as Falco but yeah, I've never played HBox-good Puffs xP
If they start to DI your Uthrow, I suppose the other ones should catch them offguard and allow you to combo their wrong DI with something (Dthrow, Fthrow or even Bthrow should work)
CC > Dtilt/Fsmash is ****, of course :x
If they space just slightly bad, your Bair/Utilt can easily outprioritize their Bair spam
If I have the opportunity, I love to approach them while they're mid-air with a laser to Usmash or turnaround Utilt. They both kill at mid-high %s. Oh, and lazer > dtilt could work as well, but dtilt doesn't have much range :x
If your opponent is constistently DI'ing your Uthrow maybe you could try with more shinegrabs when you're facing their shield, I dunno :O
I hope this makes sense, lulz
If they start to DI your Uthrow, I suppose the other ones should catch them offguard and allow you to combo their wrong DI with something (Dthrow, Fthrow or even Bthrow should work)
CC > Dtilt/Fsmash is ****, of course :x
If they space just slightly bad, your Bair/Utilt can easily outprioritize their Bair spam
If I have the opportunity, I love to approach them while they're mid-air with a laser to Usmash or turnaround Utilt. They both kill at mid-high %s. Oh, and lazer > dtilt could work as well, but dtilt doesn't have much range :x
If your opponent is constistently DI'ing your Uthrow maybe you could try with more shinegrabs when you're facing their shield, I dunno :O
I hope this makes sense, lulz
I think that way it would be fair (for me xP)
Also you can't really combo puff off a grab.
At low% dthrow-->usmash works sometimes for some odd reason
(i guess puff tries to be cool and just ASDI the lasers to get out and be airborne immediately)
But other than that i dont even go for uthrow anymore, i just fthrow/bthrow them away for the centre of the stage and then spam bairs and lasers
My secret masterplan is picking marth or getting a better Fox and picking Fox against puff =P
stingers
Smash Obsessed
couldn't u just kill her from a techchase from a dair? i see u dair him a lot
Possibly, but I wasn't getting many good Dairs on Hbox at TO6.
Ideally, yes that's what I'd want.
Ideally, yes that's what I'd want.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
hmm well have u figured out why u couldnt land many dairs? in my theory head falcos fast rising and falling speeds should let u get above jiggs when they're falling @.@
Ugh it's so hard to explain.
Basically, Puff is never gonna be right above or below you for you to get that because of her quick horizontal mobility(which you'd have to match in order to get above or below her in the first place).
Basically, Puff is never gonna be right above or below you for you to get that because of her quick horizontal mobility(which you'd have to match in order to get above or below her in the first place).
stingers
Smash Obsessed
well if she is always retreating when falling doesnt that leave her open for lasers?
if she is approaching while falling then u can just shield and do whatever right? even an empty landing is punishable
if she is approaching while falling then u can just shield and do whatever right? even an empty landing is punishable
stingers
Smash Obsessed
jiggs bair outspaces all of falcos moves except laser obv lol cuz of her disjoint. u just have to predict how she will land. i know you can't get right beneath her but you can still watch where she's going.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
@PP
Maybe a perspective change? You said fishing for a bair... but I mean, what's hbox doing the whole time he's fighting you? If you're as patient as he is, honestly I think falco can match jiggs in bairing. You have lasers to help control her movement (obviously not spam, but control) and on top of that, you have a lagless backair which makes for great ways to bait jiggs.
It's just that the way you've said it, it's as if having to bair is a bad thing. I understand you would like a more reliable way to kill jiggs, but your bair can match hers. Additionally, even if the upthrow is DI'd, it can often be followed up; don't forget that. She can cause three different scenarios: you have to jump backwards, jump straight up, jump forward. Regardless, if you feel that killing jiggs is the problem (I wouldn't personally feel like this is the biggest problem, but I'm not you
) then just ban DL64 honestly.
If you just ban DL64, your personal problem with the matchup is solved. As I've said previously though: I maintain that between laser control and your insane vertical range/mobility (falco can get up to jiggs' height SO fast) you can match her bair spam. As long as you don't start fishing, but stay patient, it's doable. Remember that as long as you don't fall for any baiting on his part, you have the advantage. He has to avoid being baited by you, while you're controlling the positioning with lasers. If puff is above you, you can catch her with a safe rising aerial (and space it so that you can't be punished for whiffing). If puff is at or below your level, you can force her to the ground with lasers.
I'm probably theorycrafting a bit heavily, but I think the concepts are there despite how frustrating it may seem.
Maybe a perspective change? You said fishing for a bair... but I mean, what's hbox doing the whole time he's fighting you? If you're as patient as he is, honestly I think falco can match jiggs in bairing. You have lasers to help control her movement (obviously not spam, but control) and on top of that, you have a lagless backair which makes for great ways to bait jiggs.
It's just that the way you've said it, it's as if having to bair is a bad thing. I understand you would like a more reliable way to kill jiggs, but your bair can match hers. Additionally, even if the upthrow is DI'd, it can often be followed up; don't forget that. She can cause three different scenarios: you have to jump backwards, jump straight up, jump forward. Regardless, if you feel that killing jiggs is the problem (I wouldn't personally feel like this is the biggest problem, but I'm not you
) then just ban DL64 honestly.If you just ban DL64, your personal problem with the matchup is solved. As I've said previously though: I maintain that between laser control and your insane vertical range/mobility (falco can get up to jiggs' height SO fast) you can match her bair spam. As long as you don't start fishing, but stay patient, it's doable. Remember that as long as you don't fall for any baiting on his part, you have the advantage. He has to avoid being baited by you, while you're controlling the positioning with lasers. If puff is above you, you can catch her with a safe rising aerial (and space it so that you can't be punished for whiffing). If puff is at or below your level, you can force her to the ground with lasers.
I'm probably theorycrafting a bit heavily, but I think the concepts are there despite how frustrating it may seem.
Yeah see it's not that easy(it used to be before Hbox studied me before TO6 which he hadn't done before I think).
You shoot a laser and and hit Puff. She can Fair you right after so you have to get ready to beat it/shield it or chase Puff if she jumps away. That's already a mix up because now you have to wait and see what the laser did. You can't just go in. Puff STILL controls you even after you hit her with a laser. If you go in on her then you could get Fair'd or retreating Bair'd(puff can use her jump to turn around and Bair at the same time which is the safest option outside of floating away and landing to regain jumps....that's the reason why you jump in in the first place though to beat that). If you stay away then Puff really just gets to land and regain jumps. Not so bad, right? Well, all Puff has to do in this time is observe your laser and movement patterns since its hard to really get to her and then she can move/take lasers/jump in such a way that allows her to pressure you away if you just camp the middle.
So, let's say puff does land and you lock her into her shield. As soon as you start to move puff is gonna WD OOS either towards you or away from you. If you end up not aerialing you're probably gonna get rising bair'd(to combo/death), grabbed(to combo/death), or dash attack/Fsmashed(possible death set up/kill). But you're probably gonna Dair because that's **** vs Puff. So your Dair timing has to get adjusted, and you have to worry about timing since Puff is moving around and may hit a shield barely or you may whiff(if you whiff you better buffer a roll and hope for the best btw because a grab/Fsmash is coming). So even in Puff's worse position she can still scare/reverse the situation on you and kill you, whereas your reward for getting the Dair is modest %(20-30 typically).
Now if you get Puff still, in her shield, and you hit with a Dair, you better hope you make the most of it. Even so, if you delay your Dair a teeny bit too much, you're gonna get Usmashed OOS and tech chased/straight comboed. But let's say Puff doesn't do that. She always has WD OOS in the middle of any type of shield pressure(most characters do...or at least more than you think I bet) and she can Fsmash afterward which will **** Falco since he'll be DI'ing down to SHFFL/shine. Grab mixups could also be a factor if you just decided to shield after a Dair for whatever reason. I guess a mixup is to stop pressuring her, but then Puff feels pretty safe in her shield even then and she can react to your pressure string ending and won't have to commit to the Fsmash/grab so shell be safe and the nasty situation resets. More often than not I've been hoping for shield pokes with Dair.
So, to look at this in a general view, you can either camp the middle and give puff all day to figure out how to get in on you and kill you(your punishments start to even out quickly if you're only getting Bairs and puff is getting 0-deaths), or kinda play with camping the middle and going in on puff when she lands to take advantage of her weaker ground game(which isn't all that weak imo) to avoid her figuring you out but obviously runs the risk of you getting gimped/OOS option'd to death.
And that's kinda where I'm at right now. Not good at getting kills and not seeing a way to work with neutral position well. Thoughts?
Edit: Duggedfox I'll respond to more in a sec but I have to ban Brinstar because that stage against puff is silly.
You shoot a laser and and hit Puff. She can Fair you right after so you have to get ready to beat it/shield it or chase Puff if she jumps away. That's already a mix up because now you have to wait and see what the laser did. You can't just go in. Puff STILL controls you even after you hit her with a laser. If you go in on her then you could get Fair'd or retreating Bair'd(puff can use her jump to turn around and Bair at the same time which is the safest option outside of floating away and landing to regain jumps....that's the reason why you jump in in the first place though to beat that). If you stay away then Puff really just gets to land and regain jumps. Not so bad, right? Well, all Puff has to do in this time is observe your laser and movement patterns since its hard to really get to her and then she can move/take lasers/jump in such a way that allows her to pressure you away if you just camp the middle.
So, let's say puff does land and you lock her into her shield. As soon as you start to move puff is gonna WD OOS either towards you or away from you. If you end up not aerialing you're probably gonna get rising bair'd(to combo/death), grabbed(to combo/death), or dash attack/Fsmashed(possible death set up/kill). But you're probably gonna Dair because that's **** vs Puff. So your Dair timing has to get adjusted, and you have to worry about timing since Puff is moving around and may hit a shield barely or you may whiff(if you whiff you better buffer a roll and hope for the best btw because a grab/Fsmash is coming). So even in Puff's worse position she can still scare/reverse the situation on you and kill you, whereas your reward for getting the Dair is modest %(20-30 typically).
Now if you get Puff still, in her shield, and you hit with a Dair, you better hope you make the most of it. Even so, if you delay your Dair a teeny bit too much, you're gonna get Usmashed OOS and tech chased/straight comboed. But let's say Puff doesn't do that. She always has WD OOS in the middle of any type of shield pressure(most characters do...or at least more than you think I bet) and she can Fsmash afterward which will **** Falco since he'll be DI'ing down to SHFFL/shine. Grab mixups could also be a factor if you just decided to shield after a Dair for whatever reason. I guess a mixup is to stop pressuring her, but then Puff feels pretty safe in her shield even then and she can react to your pressure string ending and won't have to commit to the Fsmash/grab so shell be safe and the nasty situation resets. More often than not I've been hoping for shield pokes with Dair.
So, to look at this in a general view, you can either camp the middle and give puff all day to figure out how to get in on you and kill you(your punishments start to even out quickly if you're only getting Bairs and puff is getting 0-deaths), or kinda play with camping the middle and going in on puff when she lands to take advantage of her weaker ground game(which isn't all that weak imo) to avoid her figuring you out but obviously runs the risk of you getting gimped/OOS option'd to death.
And that's kinda where I'm at right now. Not good at getting kills and not seeing a way to work with neutral position well. Thoughts?
Edit: Duggedfox I'll respond to more in a sec but I have to ban Brinstar because that stage against puff is silly.
I may start Bair'ing more as a bait, but I've always been kind of bad with conditioning with stuff like that. I guess I'll play around with it. I don't ever feel like Falco's Bair can match Puff's but I guess I'll think on it more.@PP
Maybe a perspective change? You said fishing for a bair... but I mean, what's hbox doing the whole time he's fighting you? If you're as patient as he is, honestly I think falco can match jiggs in bairing. You have lasers to help control her movement (obviously not spam, but control) and on top of that, you have a lagless backair which makes for great ways to bait jiggs.
It's just that the way you've said it, it's as if having to bair is a bad thing. I understand you would like a more reliable way to kill jiggs, but your bair can match hers. Additionally, even if the upthrow is DI'd, it can often be followed up; don't forget that. She can cause three different scenarios: you have to jump backwards, jump straight up, jump forward. Regardless, if you feel that killing jiggs is the problem (I wouldn't personally feel like this is the biggest problem, but I'm not you
If you just ban DL64, your personal problem with the matchup is solved. As I've said previously though: I maintain that between laser control and your insane vertical range/mobility (falco can get up to jiggs' height SO fast) you can match her bair spam. As long as you don't start fishing, but stay patient, it's doable. Remember that as long as you don't fall for any baiting on his part, you have the advantage. He has to avoid being baited by you, while you're controlling the positioning with lasers. If puff is above you, you can catch her with a safe rising aerial (and space it so that you can't be punished for whiffing). If puff is at or below your level, you can force her to the ground with lasers.
I'm probably theorycrafting a bit heavily, but I think the concepts are there despite how frustrating it may seem.
I don't mind Bair'ing I just feel like Falco can't manipulate his as safely as Puff can in the matchup.
Lasers don't really control Puff in my opinion(unless she's on the ground). Lasers are kinda overrated to me. Lasers turn puff around some and that creates the previous mixup I described, but I don't know how that actually helps me.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
PP, I actually have a lot of thoughts... any chance you'd AIM? I think I want you to beat puff more than you do, so I definitelyyyyy want to see if this can be worked through xDD
If not, I'll reply smashboards style, but there's SO much to say on this matchup
If not, I'll reply smashboards style, but there's SO much to say on this matchup
stingers
Smash Obsessed
why can't you just let the laser be a laser? you can just get the chip damage and continue to let her control space
@Drugged: Yeah man I'm always invisible just message me lol.
@Stongers: I already told you that just gives her time to figure you out and the laser is pretty useless for anything besides a little damage which doesn't even out with her pokes or damage output on the whole.
@Stongers: I already told you that just gives her time to figure you out and the laser is pretty useless for anything besides a little damage which doesn't even out with her pokes or damage output on the whole.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Lol I knew it was coming.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
only because it related to the discussion.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
falco just doesn't have any guaranteed death combos vs puff. you're literally forced to get a lucky killing move on puff.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
JPOBS
Smash Hero
fish for bairs
uptilt when she's realy high
shine off the top depending on the stage when you get the chance
sometime you can dair->dair spike and edgeguard
dtilt is the best finisher but its like impossible to land consistently :/
uptilt when she's realy high
shine off the top depending on the stage when you get the chance
sometime you can dair->dair spike and edgeguard
dtilt is the best finisher but its like impossible to land consistently :/
KikoMePlease
Smash Journeyman
whats the proper spacing for a regular nair approach?
When i said outspace i meant she can bair against your aerial and hit you out of it without trading hits.
Most people would call that priority, but i don't like calling it that way since aerials don't really have priority.
Oh nevermind, i just read your whole post and saw you were talking about the disjointed part.
Yeah you can watch her, but since it's hard to get there it doesn't help much
PP, have you tried platform camping?
I know, you first have to get the lead and Hbox probably will be very careful while approaching, but i didn't even see anybody mention it.
Obviously this won't help to get kills much, but i felt pretty safe when i did it against this really gay puff in my region who usually ledge-camps all the time when he has the lead.
PS: in our last set we had two matches that lasted about 7 minutes and in the last one i killed him when i shieldstabbed him with a weak reversed bair in the middle of the stage =P
I don't think I could maintain platform camping successfully. I'd probably mess up and die.
I guess I'll think about it some.
I guess I'll think about it some.
Mahone
Smash Champion
jab to aerials is good at killing puff at high percent, i'm sure you'll just tell me how your super theory bros. puff never falls for that or something, but i thought id post anyways
Actually nah that works from a CC.
Mahone
Smash Champion
Ya CC is good, but also just like jabbing the back of their shield, i really need to see the matches first before i give you any advice, because it sounds like hbox is doing a lot of really smart stuff, do you know when those vids will be up?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Mahone
Smash Champion
ya, i forgot about that, pp make sure to listen to chival's advice and not mine, because he is definitely better than me. Last time i played him was so memorable that i remember everything about it, he 3-0d my puff in a $5 mm, none of the matches were even close 
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I wasn't trying to give PP advice. I just thought his video was cool.
I'm afraid to jab puff's shield because your arm is stuck out and you could get Usmash'd OOS since you're extending your body over to Puff.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea but it's kinda risky I guess. Maybe I'm just being a wuss.
The vids should be up this week sometime. I'm reading the video thread and they seem to be getting closer daily to having them up.
Sorry if I made things out to seem as though I feel puff is unbeatable through super theory bros or something. I appreciate your willingness to help, Mahone. I'm just discouraged since Hbox studied me and found a very good way to play vs me is all.
Yeah last time he wasn't WD'ing OOS when I pressured him, which makes Falco's pressure a lot more difficult to do(granted I caught him with Dairs on that a few times, but not nearly enough).
He was also a lot more scared the last 2 times I played him. I may try a little more jab stuff but it kinda worries me at this point.
He was also a lot more scared the last 2 times I played him. I may try a little more jab stuff but it kinda worries me at this point.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
macd is ALREADY REVOLUTIONIZING THE FALCO METAGAME
Mahone
Smash Champion
I think if you only jab once nothing bad will happen, just don't keep jabbing... and ya don't worry about it i know you are venting a little because puff can be really frustrating, but even hbox isnt perfect, so don't start thinking of him like that, you can still definitely put pressure on him and force mistakes.
I mean there is hope, i remember you used to jab -> fsmash hbox's shield (before Herb 3) and he would rest you OOS. Then you started just jabbing until his sheild was so small he had to roll, and you would dair him and get a decent combo off of it, and now you claim he will upsmash OOS, but there is a counter to everything, so don't worry.
edit: ya chivalruse i was just joking, i ain't even mad!
I guess this will just be easier when the videos go up.
I plan on studying them/maybe discussing them here. We'll see what happens.
I plan on studying them/maybe discussing them here. We'll see what happens.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I know. I was just clarifying for anyone else reading.
If you are calling a jab you can grab/usmash/rest it on reaction and CC repeat if he does the second jab.
With good mix-ups of course you can't be so sure if the other guy jabs and it will work eventually.
The thing is jab can set up a kill on puff if you surprise her, but she can also kill you if you're not careful and that at much lower percentages.
So taking the risk doesn't payoff most off the time, because when puff is at that percentages you probably only need to hit with some more bairs to get the kill while staying rather safe
With good mix-ups of course you can't be so sure if the other guy jabs and it will work eventually.
The thing is jab can set up a kill on puff if you surprise her, but she can also kill you if you're not careful and that at much lower percentages.
So taking the risk doesn't payoff most off the time, because when puff is at that percentages you probably only need to hit with some more bairs to get the kill while staying rather safe