PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Rubyiris]

the only time stomp oos is a threat is when you overshoot your aerial way past him and shine anyway (so that the shine doesnt hit his sheild) and thats just stupid u deserve to get stomped.

if you land an aerial on his shield, and shine it, he doesnt have frame advantage to stomp.

feel no fear when facing dis *****

there is no black and white in melee. frame advantage is not absolute. in-game, a player will make a mistake at some point in time, and get hit by something they "shouldn't"

 

[JPOBS]

yea but you originally said "then u play someone who doesnt suck and dairs you OoS and you cry"

implying that falcon dair OoS > falco pressure

it doesnt really matter how good the falcon is, the mechanics of the game work such that falcon cant really dair you OoS consistently.

messing up once in a while and getitng punished is another topic entirely.

 

[Little England]

wow, this concept isn't that hard to grasp. Nobody said stomp OoS>Falco shield pressure.

the only time stomp oos is a threat is when you overshoot your aerial way past him and shine anyway (so that the shine doesnt hit his sheild) and thats just stupid u deserve to get stomped.

if you land an aerial on his shield, and shine it, he doesnt have frame advantage to stomp.

Stomp OoS works if they anticipate that you will shine after your aerial. The animation for stomp makes Falcon scrunch up into a little cute ball to avoid the shine then he stomps you outta that ****.

And of course if someone is approaching Falcon such that their aerial hits late on Falcon's shield, they are running the risk of getting shield grabbed out of their jump. Late aerial risk=shield grab. Earlier aerial risk=stomp OoS. Maybe they won't even shine. Maybe they'll try to utilt Falcon's stomp OoS (shield grab risk). It's a big circle.

there is no black and white in melee.

Let's be mindful of this.

 

[JPOBS]

Stomp OoS works if they anticipate that you will shine after your aerial.

how?

correct me if im wrong, but assuming the shine actually hits his shield, he cant even jump before you do and your aerials come ou faster so....

if you're early aerling his shield and he's jumping before the shine comes out thats cool, but thats a completely different scenario, he can do loads of things in that time frame.

edit: anyway ya we all know whats going on here, we're just arguing dumb "if x then y" scenarios. I just wanted to pick a bone with the original statement "until u play a falcon who doesnt suck and dairs you oos" cuz thats just way to broad and leads to the impression that falcons who dair oos will beat ur pressure

edit 2: why the fawk is scoutu's frame data thread not stickied.

 

[X1-12]

I think he means if he jumps between your d-air and shine so when you shine it misses him, this shouldn't really happen though

 

[Falcinho]

If you hit Falcons shield with a late aerial it may be true that you can shine his shield before he can jump,
but if you're spamming late aerials the Falcon should adapt and just catch you mid-air with nairs or uairs or dashdance if possible =/

So against good Falcons with awsomely timed dairs oos you should watch out since one downair can end in a lost stock.
It's still not a great threat since you can utilt, bair w/e on reaction usually and still cover a grab with shine.

However, i once saw Dr. PP post that some good Falcon (dont remember who) outspaced his utilt with a dair oos, so dont be too careless

 

[Little England]

Yeah he was talking about SS. And I actually did it the other day against a Falco and it was surprisingly easy to space.

 

[Moooose]

stomp oos beats pillaring

 

[genkaku]

avoiding grabs:
keep my arials low and space dtilts?

 

[JPOBS]

space aerials > space dtilts

 

[Riddle]

So I recently went to a smashfest and one thing I noticed is that I have absolutely NO game plan.

How do you go about developing one?

 

[Rubyiris]

Some things to note about falco vs falcons shield. All of these assume you're approaching Falcon's shield from the FRONT.

Earlier aerial, but not enough to be 100% guarantee shield grabbed:

In this situation Falcon can stomp OOS. Falcons stomp retracts his hurt box in such a way that both shine, AND utilt will completely miss. The stomp hitbox will then come out before you can react if you shine/utilt. This gets beaten by Aerial > Aerial

Late aerial is beaten by shield grabbing if they recognize the late aerial/anticipate the late aerial, but beats stomp OOS, and you have enough time to react to spot dodges and rolls.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I recently went to a smashfest and one thing I noticed is that I have absolutely NO game plan.

How do you go about developing one?

Well, I can tell you what I do and you can take it or leave it, but in the end it's what you come up with to yourself that will help the most since it will naturally make the most sense to you. Hopefully you can take something from what I'm saying though. =p

Developing a game plan is much deeper than a general smash question, it's like asking how to play the game. What has always made the most sense to me was not to say "okay in this match/matchup I will be offensive/gay/etc" but rather "in this matchup vs this character/person this keeps happening and I want/don't want it to keep happening." I never really came up with an idea of playing really gay or really aggressively on anyone(I found that neither of those types of styles worked for me, though more defensive play benefited me initially). I preferred approaching if I could, and I learned to adjust myself to when I felt like approaching wasn't safe and when it was. I did this by examining every situation I was placed into when I played. I found my own answers for each situation I placed myself into and built my style based on the numerous situations I like to place myself in.

I know I sort of circled around some and repeated myself a little, but basically if you want to develop your own style, then I can suggest that you play the game the way you want to and then when you want to get better play that way but adjust your style to the situations you're losing/need to improve in.


Edit: Ruby's post makes sense to me based on what I've seen. I'd be kind of nervous to shield grab before the aerial came out but that's me.

 

[Rubyiris]

double post my bad.

 

[Rubyiris]

PP:

If you've ever seen M2K just stand in one place as a space animal runs at his marth and grabs them out of a jump, its kinda like that, only you're captain falcon, and shielding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ2wY3Jr4Jk

how does i fight sheik?

 

[stingers]

i think i can summarize the entire reason you lost in one sentence

Don't go near the ledge.

 

[Rubyiris]

Nvm, you clearly didn't watch the vid.

 

[Frame Perfect]

so pp, what inputs do you use to break out of grab when 'ice climbers' grabs you.

 

[Rubyiris]

Mash your face against the controller.

 

[Dr Peepee]

so pp, what inputs do you use to break out of grab when 'ice climbers' grabs you.

I heard spinning the control stick one direction and C stick the other was the best for that.

Ordinarily I rotated the control stick with one hand and just kind of spazzed on my controller with the other soooo I kinda like the first method more lol.


Ruby: I promise I'll get to you.

 

[Mogwai]

roll stick with left hand and spaz out with the right hand seems optimal to me, lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hmmm well I may go back to doing that then, we'll see.

I do enjoy flipping out and taking out frustration while I'm grabbed. =p

 

[Rubyiris]

I still vote mash your face against the pad.

 

[X1-12]

if its the simple D-throw D-air thing just wait, then hit away as the d-air is about to hit you, I find timing is better than mashing for that particular one

 

[Druggedfox]

I heard spinning the control stick one direction and C stick the other was the best for that.

Ordinarily I rotated the control stick with one hand and just kind of spazzed on my controller with the other soooo I kinda like the first method more lol.


Ruby: I promise I'll get to you.

I was playing brawl (yuck, I know) with reflex this past weekend, and had to fight an IC... and you know how ICs are in brawl with their grabs. So I asked reflex what he does:

-Shake control stick
-Position thumb so that the base of your thumb covers X and Y, and that the rest of your thumb goes across A and B
-Sort of "vibrate" your forearm so that you press all 4 buttons rapidly

He did this when we played melee, and I could only pummel him twice at around 120%. I didn't even get to throw him afterwards. It's by far the fastest way I've seen of getting out of grabs, and I'd never heard of anyone doing it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I was playing brawl (yuck, I know) with reflex this past weekend, and had to fight an IC... and you know how ICs are in brawl with their grabs. So I asked reflex what he does:

-Shake control stick
-Position thumb so that the base of your thumb covers X and Y, and that the rest of your thumb goes across A and B
-Sort of "vibrate" your forearm so that you press all 4 buttons rapidly

He did this when we played melee, and I could only pummel him twice at around 120%. I didn't even get to throw him afterwards. It's by far the fastest way I've seen of getting out of grabs, and I'd never heard of anyone doing it.

Yeah I've heard Reflex was exceptional at breaking out of grabs, so maybe there's something to that.

Thanks for that bro.

 

[Rubyiris]

I STILL suggest mashing your face against the pad. :3

 

[FoxLisk]

I was playing brawl (yuck, I know) with reflex this past weekend, and had to fight an IC... and you know how ICs are in brawl with their grabs. So I asked reflex what he does:

-Shake control stick
-Position thumb so that the base of your thumb covers X and Y, and that the rest of your thumb goes across A and B
-Sort of "vibrate" your forearm so that you press all 4 buttons rapidly

He did this when we played melee, and I could only pummel him twice at around 120%. I didn't even get to throw him afterwards. It's by far the fastest way I've seen of getting out of grabs, and I'd never heard of anyone doing it.

jesus ****. i feel like no matter what method he was using, he's just twitching at an unbelievable speed. that's amazing.

 

[Druggedfox]

It's pretty awesome, but if you figure out how to shake your forearm, it's pretty doable for most people. He'll just always be a bit better at it than most everyone =D

 

[X1-12]

If its just mashing grabs the measurable way to train is training mode as fox, start pressing B to repeated laser, then slide your fingers across ABYX and back in time so you hit B fast enough not to break the laser chain. Also spin control stick with other hand, then just increase the speed. untill you can do it on 2X

 

[Mogwai]

sounds like a surefire way to rip through a ton of controllers, not to mention that you're not actually tracking how well you're doing at hitting AXY after B and, rather, are just testing B speed really.

 

[X1-12]

If you try it its fairly simple to tell whether you are pressing AXY or not, but whatever, each to their own

 

[Rubyiris]

I didn't see this posted anywhere, or covered in any past discussions, so I feel like bringing it up:

How do people like dthrow near the ledge? It covers tech in, tech in place, and no tech, and you can turn around and shoot a laser before their tech roll finishes if they tech in place, and continue applying pressure.

3 out of 4 tech options are punished by dsmash, and 2 out of 4 by dilt, both being good killing moves.

Fthrow is guaranteed to put them in a bad position, but dthrow has better payout if you react/anticipate correctly.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I didn't see this posted anywhere, or covered in any past discussions, so I feel like bringing it up:

How do people like dthrow near the ledge? It covers tech in, tech in place, and no tech, and you can turn around and shoot a laser before their tech roll finishes if they tech in place, and continue applying pressure.

3 out of 4 tech options are punished by dsmash, and 2 out of 4 by dilt, both being good killing moves.

Fthrow is guaranteed to put them in a bad position, but dthrow has better payout if you react/anticipate correctly.

Couldn't they DI off of the stage and be totally fine though? Or do you mean Dthrowing not close enough to DI off?

It sounds like a good enough mixup to use somewhat sparingly. I've never really used it all that much though so I don't know.

 

[Rubyiris]

Couldn't they DI off of the stage and be totally fine though? Or do you mean Dthrowing not close enough to DI off?

It sounds like a good enough mixup to use somewhat sparingly. I've never really used it all that much though so I don't know.

Near the ledge, but not close enough to DI OFF the stage. It's a good mixup if you don't spam it, like just about any mixup, lol.

 

[unknown522]

yeah, I've seen zhu do it vs HugS.

 

[genkaku]

holy carp, that spinanalog/mashABXY works.

 

[JPOBS]

i've see zhu do it versus a number of foxes and land downsmash kills lol. even multiple times within the same set.

i've never tried it, i dunno why, seems just like the platform trap and i do that one all the time.

 

[X1-12]

There's a UK player who always does D-throw near the edge and reads your roll inside with a D-air, I think its probably ok vs samus I guess but marth or spacies I would just F-throw them off and edgeguard

 

[Rubyiris]

i prefer dthrow vs marth/fox since marth is sometimes hard to edgeguard. either i get a dthrow/tilt, or i can chase his roll in.