PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[KirbyKaze]

Sion that Samus kept being too far to combo Shine after Dair you should do other moves to combo or dash jump Shine like DaShizWiz. But if you're lazy at like 35%+ just D/U-tilt loooooool

Let's play again :D

 

[Violence]

....

*peeks into thread*

So many Falco players...

 

[Rubyiris]

Watch any video with DrPP vs Hbox while Dogysamich is doing the commentary. He spends about 3/4 of the time describing stage control, and how the match is going back and forth because of it. Stage control literally means who controls more of the stage, usually; as I said, just watch anything with DrPP playing and Dogy doing commentary. When you have more room to maneuver, and control center stage, it increases your options and decreases your opponents options. That's the number 1 issue with camping: you forfeit stage control to your opponent. Camping means you've placed yourself in a corner, and while that can work, characters like peach/jiggs/ganon, that most people like to camp, are generally very good at taking advantage of the fact that you've cut down your space and thus your options.

I can't speak for PP on either of these, but when he says combos need to come together more, I would assume he's implying that you don't seem entirely consistent with your combo'ing, or know where you're going next with your combos. You're getting some small combos in and such, but you don't seem to have your combo game vs peach down.

That's what I understood by what PP said, at least.

that doesnt really help me though. i need to know how not to be forced into a corner.

 

[Little England]

Option Selects

I think Melee has option selects. (If you've ever played other fighters then you're familiar with this term.)

What is an option select? This guy explained it better than I can. lol 0:00-0:20
Here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHHoGHcgK9k

I'll start. If a Fox is doing basic nair shine shield pressure on your shield at mid to mid-high percents. You input the wavedash away command after the Fox's shine hits your shield. Let's look at Fox's common options out of shine.

shine again (or double shine)
delayed/late nair
instant nair
grab

Now let's look at the responses the game will have for inputting a wavedash right after a shine for all of these scenarios.

shine again (or double shine)-When the shine hits you, you will have downwards DI and you'll be pressing R/L which will cause you to CC tech away.
delayed/late nair-If he delays or does a late nair you'll get away safely with your wavedash.
instant nair-(same as shine again)
grab-not sure quite honestly

I know Fox can also wavedash out of shield to catch you or maybe even upsmash, but those are obviously less effective/safe options than the above. I think we should be wavedashing out of shield more often.

 

[JPOBS]

i love wd oos.

my first option is shine oos if they are close enough. if not, wd oos is my next option.

 

[Rubyiris]

I like to fsmash shields and lose stocks.

 

[Bonsai]

roll oos (advanced tech) is pretty good too if you do it after a shine, just to escape the shield pressure.
what can you do when your opponents roll away against your nair/dair, shine? Best option to me is shinegrab to prevent the roll but against characters like falcon it's not THAT good to get a throw (except for at the edge at higher percents), I'd rather hit a shine. Don't know of a lot of other good options. maybe rising nair or something.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

did you just say rolling oos is an advanced tech? as in, holding shield, and then c-sticking left or right?

 

[JPOBS]

lol i think he might have been kidding. The rest of his post was pretty true, theres not a whole lot you can do to an opponent who rols out of your pressure.

at most, you can fire a reactionary laser, and then catch them and just start pressuring again. It is better to poke or bait them into grabbing, unless you have a really good read on their roll patterns.

 

[Little England]

ehhh...I think most of what he said definitely isn't true JPOBS

-Shine grabbing will NOT catch a buffered roll
-You CAN immediately chase someone's roll with a jc grab or dair on reaction
-And grabbing with Falco is a integral part of his shield pressure! Just think about it.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

grabbing with falco = legit


fruhl.



get yalls **** straight.

 

[Tero.]

I like to fsmash shields and lose stocks.

I lol'd.
Not kidding.

 

[Bonsai]

how is rolling out of shield not an advanced tech. I can only do that **** like 10-20% of the time, **** is hard yo.
anyway LE, I don't see a lot of people buffer rolls against shine grabs. I saw some buffered spot dodges in the falco tourney of apex, that's about it. Sounds pretty good tho.

you can't chase someone's roll on reaction if they roll exactly when you aerial after the shine. an option might be not shining and waiting or sth if they always roll away and then react. or like shine and wd shine again, then you might be able to run after their roll.

hell yeah that grabbing is crucial for falco, love doing grabs in pressure against fox falco marth sheik etc. but against falcon it's not that good to me. against ganon same thing kinda. usually I fthrow ganon and then wait for the reaction or keep on pressuring but if he jabs right after I threw him it's bad for me usually. When ganon rolls out of his shield it's easier to punish like you say than with falcon, falcon slips away faster, that lubey mofo

 

[JPOBS]

ehhh...I think most of what he said definitely isn't true JPOBS

-Shine grabbing will NOT catch a buffered roll
-You CAN immediately chase someone's roll with a jc grab or dair on reaction
-And grabbing with Falco is a integral part of his shield pressure! Just think about it.

i dont know the frame data on shinegrab vs roll, but i know the opponent kinda has to cal lyou on it or something to get away with it, otherwise, they just get grabbed. unless they always buffer rolls the secodn you touch their sheild in which case, easy pickings.

i dunno about that second one. In my experience, if im full out sheild pressuring, its hard to react to a roll, especially if they roll after the shine, cuz then you've already jumped and likely input an aerial, and they just get away for free. If their dumb and roll after the aerial then yea its much easier i agree.

he was talking specifically about grabbing falcon, i can see why grabbing falcon isnt that great. falcon is probably the worst character to grab, but you can still do stuff so watever.And falcon's OoS options suck so bad, i dont even bother grabbing him anyway. Stuff any of his aerials, catch his roll, **** him.

i posted way more than i wanted to lool

 

[KirbyKaze]

jpobs talk to me baby

i'm bored

 

[Sion]

i never buffer rolls, but i've spot dodged/rolled out of shine grabs a couple of times myself.

and i see, utilt *****. i'll keep that in mind.

 

[Little England]

i dont know the frame data on shinegrab vs roll, but i know the opponent kinda has to cal lyou on it or something to get away with it, otherwise, they just get grabbed. unless they always buffer rolls the secodn you touch their sheild in which case, easy pickings.

i dunno about that second one. In my experience, if im full out sheild pressuring, its hard to react to a roll, especially if they roll after the shine, cuz then you've already jumped and likely input an aerial, and they just get away for free. If their dumb and roll after the aerial then yea its much easier i agree.

he was talking specifically about grabbing falcon, i can see why grabbing falcon isnt that great. falcon is probably the worst character to grab, but you can still do stuff so watever.And falcon's OoS options suck so bad, i dont even bother grabbing him anyway. Stuff any of his aerials, catch his roll, **** him.

i posted way more than i wanted to lool

Yeah exactly they have to call you on it.

If you throw out the aerial or jump after the shine you definitely won't catch them. This is why people shouldn't just jump automatically. haha but yeah you get it

And if we're talking about Falcon that's more understandable. But I still grab him a bunch. In order to stuff one of Falcon's OoS aerials that means you'd have to either utilt after your aerial (Falcon is free from pressure if he doesn't jump) or do a quick nair/dair after your shine (once again Falcon is free). I guess this is why Mango says Falco shield pressure is overrated. Still, it is true that Falcon will get ***** OoS 9/10 times. Grabbing is my way to remind him that he can't sit in shield all day. Besides, when you land the grab you generally set up better pressure.

 

[AvengerAngel]

I like to fsmash shields and lose stocks.

LOL me too xd

And if we're talking about Falcon that's more understandable. But I still grab him a bunch. In order to stuff one of Falcon's OoS aerials that means you'd have to either utilt after your aerial (Falcon is free from pressure if he doesn't jump) or do a quick nair/dair after your shine (once again Falcon is free). I guess this is why Mango says Falco shield pressure is overrated. Still, it is true that Falcon will get ***** OoS 9/10 times. Grabbing is my way to remind him that he can't sit in shield all day. Besides, when you land the grab you generally set up better pressure.

...wtf? Actually, Falco can shut off ALL of Falcon's OOS options with a good pillar (and that's what Mango says). Look at the frame data, Falcon doesn't have enough time to do anything :x
If you're pillaring him and you have the feeling he's gonna roll after the shine, just multishine his shield. I suppose you could get his roll's starting frames (when he's still vulnerable), but I might be wrong on this.

 

[Little England]

What's a "good pillar"?

 

[bossa nova ♪]

when u actually delay lol

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

if you always delay against a good player won't the good player constantly grab you before the delayed dair? making it a bad pillar. i'd say a good pillar is amazing mixups while being safe

 

[bossa nova ♪]

pillaring is shield pressure. so if u don't delay ur not doing it right. that's not to say all shield pressure needs to be delayed, just the part where you dont want them shield grabbing you. delayed dair to shine to receding nair immediately out of shine is ****in **** obv.

mix up the stew.

and i'd think with most characters it'd be easy to attack an incoming falco that plans on delaying than grab him.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

yeah, just i tried to delay my pillaring often while playing armada over and over in friendlies, and he would grab me before i did it SOOO many times. i wouldn't say if your not delaying your not doing it right because sometimes delaying is right and sometimes doing it early is right in the sense that they might try and grab early if they know you do super late dairs.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

wow.... yeah armada knows his shield pretty well lololol...

the reason i said "mix up the stew" is that you shouldn't be pillaring over and over... like ever. only against bad people.....

delayed dair –> shine –> shine will get them a lot, and then start grabbing out of the second shine until they learn to shield di or something lolol

 

[Tero.]

You shouldn't ever be pressuring someones shield with much more than aerial -> shine -> aerial spaced away to begin with.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

esp in the case of shield pressure, i dont think things need to be stated in such a straight and narrow way.... as to not detract readers from seeing potentiality in "less useful" options


i mean obv against a good player doing more than one pillar is dangerous... esp if that player plays a spacey lol

 

[Little England]

if you always delay against a good player won't the good player constantly grab you before the delayed dair? making it a bad pillar. i'd say a good pillar is amazing mixups while being safe

This .

 

[Rubyiris]

idk about you but most of the good players in my area grab delayed aerials. I'm not talking stupidly just attacking their shield over and over. They see that the aerial is delayed and just catch my *** mid-jump.

So instead I just fsmash their shield, because I figure I'm going to lose my stock anyways, so why not get it over with quicker?

 

[JPOBS]

i wouldnt say such a blanket statement.

aerial->shine-> away aerial is great cuz it keeps pretty u safe, but it also effectively ends pressure. the opponent is free to do whatever they want. Assuming they dont get baited into grabbing, they can wd back oos, jump and waveland on a platform and run away, wd foward oos and do a move, marth can jump oos and fair you etc.

Dont always assume your opponent is going to perfectly counter your sheild pressure every time so oyu should only do perfectly safe things like drifting aerials and such.
Sometimes, its more beneficial to go for sheild pokes when their sheild is low, or do aerial->dtilt to clip their toes, and even waveshining twice (omg teh horror) on their sheild can throw ther timing off.

Some things are inevtably worst than others, but you shouldnt always just do the safest thing, cuz the safest thing usually has a low risk-low reward payout. And again, dont just assume that if you choose a less safe option, your opponent s going to magically counter you, cuz they cant unless you over do it.

I should also throw it out there that its really important to note how your opponent responds to sheild pressure. MOST people have one, go-to option to get out. We make a deal about "mixing up" or sheild pressure, but majority of people dont ever really "mix up" their sheild escapes.
Lots of sheiks will instant nair OoS every time, many foxs will Full hop dair/nair a lot, or always shine oos. Many falcons will either always aerial OoS, or roll.
Just as important a smixing up your pressure, is taking note of how your opponent frequently responds, because then you can aim to specifically punish THAT instead of just "omg safest option all the time"

edit: lol this thread is moving fast. this was n response to anyone saying always late aerial, or always drift away on your second aerial etc

 

[X1-12]

I love D-air -> Shine -> waveshine past them -> B-air poke the top of their shield, I see Zgetto do this with fox and unless you are used to moving your shield around it pretty much always works.

 

[AvengerAngel]

Pretty much what JPOBS said. Delayed aerials **** almost all of Falcon's OOS options, and if you mix other things up (like multishines, waveshines, early fade-out aerials and stuff), they won't grab you in the middle of your jump :O

 

[JPOBS]

falcon sucks oos.

personally, when i sheild pressure him, i just go nuts on his sheild cuz i doesnt afraid of anything.

 

[Rubyiris]

I love fsmashing shields and losing stocks.

Occasionally I mix it up and dsmash their shield....


...Then lose a stock.

People should take after me. I am, of course, the best Falco.

 

[Rubyiris]

falcon sucks oos.

personally, when i sheild pressure him, i just go nuts on his sheild cuz i doesnt afraid of anything.

and then you play someone who doesnt suck and dairs you oos and you cry.

Then you bair him the next stock and enjoy ur free combo. Lol.

 

[mers]

Stomp OOS sucks. Like really really hard. You can easily hit it on reaction.

 

[JPOBS]

and then you play someone who doesnt suck and dairs you oos and you cry.

Then you bair him the next stock and enjoy ur free combo. Lol.

Stomp OOS sucks. Like really really hard. You can easily hit it on reaction.

this

lmfao at stomp oos.

 

[Rubyiris]

Stomp OOS sucks. Like really really hard. You can easily hit it on reaction.

no you cant.

 

[X1-12]

Then with your terrible reaction speeds I'm amazed you managed to post a response that fast

 

[JPOBS]

the only time stomp oos is a threat is when you overshoot your aerial way past him and shine anyway (so that the shine doesnt hit his sheild) and thats just stupid u deserve to get stomped.

if you land an aerial on his shield, and shine it, he doesnt have frame advantage to stomp.

feel no fear when facing dis *****

edit: although i have seen scar do this crazy thing where he jumps OoS, DI's away and spaces the stomp so the hitbox still smacks you, that was balla and only happened once tho

 

[Rubyiris]

Then with your terrible reaction speeds I'm amazed you managed to post a response that fast

im sorry. nobody has reaction speed good enough to, without fail, always stop falcons dair oos.

just stop trying to defend it. it just doesn't happen. someone will, eventually, make an incorrect desision during shield pressure, or just mess up and get hit.