PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[GimR]

tips please, first to 5 serious set vs. Wenbo

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/353211748?t=180m20s

 

[Warhawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omi9MyweC_I

Mango's a good deal better than Taj.

 

[Bones0]

Mango came back and whooped on Taj in Loser's because Taj is gdlk vs. Falco (FORWARDFANBOY4LYFE) and he went Fox. It had nothing to do with momentum or how good Mango is vs. Marth with either character.

 

[Wenbobular]

tips please, first to 5 serious set vs. Wenbo

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/353211748?t=180m20s

Don't watch my ****ty Marth

I will allow you guys to watch my Fox

 

[Bones0]

You know where Marth is on the character select screen?

 

[Wenbobular]

Bottom right ... maybe ....???

 

[Metal Reeper]

Yes, Wenbo is correct
confirmed

 

[unknown522]

Isn't Roy the bottom right?

 

[Xyzz]

tips please, first to 5 serious set vs. Wenbo

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/353211748?t=180m20s

Skimmed it; mostly noticed that you often go for fancy stuffs after hitting dash attacks that would combo into a simple f / d - smash for a kill or at the very least an easy edeguard. (or at 3:07:30 you appear to be just looking at him in confusion after you've hit him with it )
Also like a lot of people you instantly do the doublejump as soon as you're in control of your character again when you're hit offstage, every single time. Free edgeguards for your opponent, especially if he's a fox and can basically jump into the position where you'll end up for a shine-spike.

 

[Doser]

I completely agree I mean it's not like M2K is the best in the world at Marth dit--
OH WAIT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoob08ssmvs
5:00

Do you not know how to add #t=5m0s to the end of the url?

 

[SpiderMad]

Do you not know how to add #t=5m0s to the end of the url?

or right click copy url at current time

 

[PB&J]

pp- I think we are staying @ the same place for apex, so lets play some falco dittos and my fox vs your marth.

 

[Bones0]

Do you not know how to add #t=5m0s to the end of the url?

You don't have to add "0s", just fyi.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So whats the general gameplan vs. Puff? I don't get it

She's real low=laser or aerial.

She's jumping=SH Bair

She's higher=FH/DJ Bair

Sometimes lasering to turn her around is awesome even if you don't get a followup. Chasing her landing with lasers is also great for leading into pressure. Shine grab is great vs her shield and shield pressure is tricky since she's short so work more Dairs for shield stabbing unless you want a Nair mixup.

Don't freak out and jump when you're by the edge IT'S WHAT PUFF WANTS.

I realized I have a Fox problem this weekend. I just cannot for the life of me move vs. this character without getting pounced on. Once I get knocked down, I just end up shielding, rolling, and spotdodging like a scrub, and it's pissing me off. I tried to WD OoS more, but I just get hit as Fox just steamrolls me. Holding shield just means I get grabbed constantly, which leads to more knockdowns, and more shielding... If anyone has any general spacing advice in this matchup or ways of dealing with Fox pressure, I'd appreciate it. I did notice that if I just FHed out of pressure I sometimes was able to reestablish my movement game, but I somehow suck at getting off of platforms with Falco's broken-*** dair. I also didn't feel like I had many opportunities to laser. Whenever I finally was able to establish movement and fire a laser, the Fox would just head right for the platforms. I think I got a grab every time I hit a Fox/Fox's shield with a laser, but I just couldn't get those lasers out often enough. I am pretty sure none of my matches were recorded, unfortunately, but I am going to watch a bunch of Falco vs. Fox vids, so if anyone can point out anything in particular I should focus on in regards to lasers or movement of me or the Fox would be very helpful. Thanks.

Don't just move via lasering, run around and threaten with your back/crouch. Fox has to start spacing around you then, which opens lasers back up. This'll give you plenty of breathing room.

Try to tech shines, change up when you tech and how long you get up if you don't, and M2K's advice is holding down when Fox hits you to break combos, so try that.

Jumping OOS is good as long as you don't always drift and/or FF and/or attack at the same time every time. It's also okay to fall straight back down due to Dair respect, and then you get free lasers(the gay Mango stuff that works best in the corner.)

Getting off platforms is a matter of learning how to make people commit. Try to jump off of platforms or WD off of them in the direction people don't seem to be covering. Heck falling off of them with lasers/aerials can be good if they're just waiting for you to shield/jump. Look for your common habits here and correct them, as you have enough options to stay safe for sure.

Fox on a platform is fine, just threaten with Bair/Utilt and when he stays up there you can do neat FH aerial/laser/shine tricks.

PP, M2K says the only reason you beat him is because of Falco. Can you please MM him with Fox?
<3

I'll do it at some EC regional eventually. I think I can take M2K's Marth with Fox now(I'm already amazing somehow at Fox vs Sheik naturally and don't know why.)

M2K should do a Falco ditto vs. PP if he thinks Falco is broken.

I'd win, and that logic doesn't work with M2K.

instead of M2K playing Falco I think PP should just beat M2K in a full set of Marth dittos.

I REALLY WANT TO TRY THIS AGAIN OMG

pp- I think we are staying @ the same place for apex, so lets play some falco dittos and my fox vs your marth.

down

 

[Charlesz]

I see zhu and westballz run into their opponent and light shield pivot to b-air just a character length away. Any reliable method on how to do that? I seem to be able to do it but not consistantly, and is it fast then just a short dash dance in b-air?

 

[Bones0]

What happens when you try to do it? If you roll, it means you're pressing shield before dashing. If you don't go very far, it means you're not changing directions on your stick before you leave the ground (Falco flips when you get a jump-back). The point of shield stopping is simply to pivot more easily (which gives you greater air mobility going backwards than if you jump from a dash). Pivoting properly is a bit faster (by however many frames you spent shielding, 1 minimum), but sometimes shield stopping can trick your opponent into thinking you're shielding for a split second so that's another small benefit.

 

[Metal Reeper]

IDK why but I always find it hilarious when I see higher level people run and then use their sheild to auto-pivot. ****ing cheaters lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah I love shield stopping. Bread and butter.

 

[Charlesz]

Wait so shield pivoting is the same as normal pivoting? Do I need to use light shield? Anyone have a video or a tutorial?

 

[Beat!]

First you dash or dash dance or whatever

Then you shield when you're at the desired spacing

Then you immediately SH bair OOS

That's it really.


It'll look a lot like a "legitimate" pivot if you shield IMMEDIATELY after dashing in the opposite direction. Maybe that's what confuses you?

 

[Bones0]

Whether you shield hard or lightly is irrelevant. All you have to do is shield at any point during your dash animation, and it cancels your momentum. You will notice that shielding during a full run won't allow you to SH bair further behind you than simply jumping because it doesn't instantly halt your momentum (it does slow it down a little, but it doesn't enable a jump-back like shield stopping during dashes does).

 

[Kira-]

Bones, your posts would look less voluminous and would be easier to read if you took an example from others like beat/PP

aka press enter between your sentences or main points.

Makes them easier for others to skim!

Anyway, who is trying to chill and get some Falco dittos in at APEX? Most the EC falcos I want to play don't post here, but I'd like to put a face to a name for the rest of y'all lol

BTW this is stabbedbyafriendscomputer NOT kira lol

edit: all i know is wenbo is mad azn and iirc bones is white as ****kkkkkkk

 

[clowsui]

Stab why did Kira quit

 

[Bones0]

Bones, your posts would look less voluminous and would be easier to read if you took an example from others like beat/PP

aka press enter between your sentences or main points.

Makes them easier for others to skim!

Anyway, who is trying to chill and get some Falco dittos in at APEX? Most the EC falcos I want to play don't post here, but I'd like to put a face to a name for the rest of y'all lol

BTW this is stabbedbyafriendscomputer NOT kira lol

edit: all i know is wenbo is mad azn and iirc bones is white as ****kkkkkkk

Thanks, I will try that more. I guess I just get caught up when typing because if I don't let it flow out of me, it gets 10x more confusing to translate into words.

[ENTER]

I auditioned for The Whitest Kids U' Know, but they criticized me for being "too unbelievably white."

Also, you should try not to look at the opinion of top players as law if they haven't even played your char long enough to have tested the various options. Oftentimes top players will later realize that what they were doing was suboptimal. PP's marth's game changes very regularly. I think the most impressive feat i watched was when he slowly designed the marth vs jiggs metagame over 3-4 hrs. Things I had spent days working on were all tested and incorporated rapidly, and the final product was nothing like the initial way he had been playing the matchup, which i would merely categorize as bad.

i honestly think after those 4 hrs he probably could have gone and 3-0'd hungrybox's jiggs easily, but knowing PP he probably forgot half the things he learned and then learned another 1000 things about other chars. The stuff PP knows seems to change depending on what month of the year you catch him at. It's like his brain can't hold all the stuff he's worked on or invented

PP, would you care to comment on KP's observations of your adaptiveness? Any advice about how you break down oblivion and build a good understanding of matchups quickly and fundamentally would be very helpful for me. Sometimes I feel like I have no grasp on what my opponent is trying to do in the big picture of our match. I may notice them using plats a certain way or reacting to lasers are certain way, but I never feel like I "get" someone (let alone their character), even after playing friendlies for an extended period of time. Is this a skill you think comes with time in general, or were you always fairly quick to pick up on matchup nuance?

I feel like I either understand or recognize something immediately and it just clicks, or I get stuck on it and have to play through a million times before it clicks. It never feels like I am gradually getting better, which is what I would expect most players at my level experience (as opposed to getting better in large chunks).

Another weird observation is KP's comment that you seem to forget or somehow get out of touch with stuff you learned. That's interesting to me because I tend to be the complete opposite where once I "get" something, it sticks in my brain like a sticky note, and based on the past few games I have been really good at, I end up having a million sticky notes all organized in my brain, and I just feel like a super check list of game theory. I still have intuition and stuff, but my intuitive decisions would be based on how my mental check list is forming. I would notice specific parts of the game developing one way or another and just naturally accommodate my strategies to those changes. Is this how you are, and Melee simply has so much complexity that remembering everything simply isn't a realistic goal, or is there some other explanation as to why you remember some things but not others? Perhaps you just have to play more to make your conscious adjustments natural habits?

I know that was all pretty vague and disorganized, so feel free to ramble about any of it if you have time to. I'm interested in others' ideas as well. You don't have to be a pro at Melee to be good at learning. ^_^

 

[Jake13]

Stab

I got you on those falco dittos

 

[Tee ay eye]

BTW this is stabbedbyafriendscomputer NOT kira lol

i hate you

you got me so excited

 

[unknown522]

Lol stab you troll

 

[Bones0]

Critique anyone? Four Falco dittos on Yoshi's, of course. lol

Bones vs. GIMR

Bones vs. Wenbobular

 

[knightpraetor]

is z-canceling less likely to have problems with the button sticking? i was just curious. Since it's a digital input, is it more accurate?

 

[T-Flex]

I just paused in practice to ask this question, but I think I just sideB spiked. Anyone know if that's a thing? Because I just watched it happen. I don't know if it was a % thing or an actual spike, but it just kind of happened on accident.

 

[unknown522]

Lol

 

[Beat!]

The side-B hitbox is a meteor smash.

 

[T-Flex]

The side-B hitbox is a meteor smash.

Thanks! Guess I probably could have found that in frame data.

 

[Xyzz]

Nah, not really. Unless you take kinda advanced tools into consideration.
Everything that has a unmodified trajectory not more than 20 degree away from straight down is meteorcancellable. It's probably easier to just know which ones are cancellable and which aren't

 

[pokemongeof]

I have now decided that I will start playing as Falco with Luigi! Lets go teh Falco!

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

Bones, just a couple of random things I noticed (and I suck so feel free to defend yourself/correct me) when I watched your set with Wenbo:

-There were several instances where you had Wenbo in his shield, and he was able to escape because you would full hop during pressure (like shine -> fullhop). So maybe try sticking closer to the ground during pressure. Especially since you miss several opportunities to follow up from a shine hit because you had to land from you jump.

-Throw in some grabs when you have him pressured. Most of your grabs came from shielding attacks. There was one instance during the 2nd game where you made him shield a laser right next to you and you proceeded to dash dance and get killed. But when you start making him guess whether he has to avoid a grab or stay in shield to not get hit you get more opportunities to do both.

-You gave up control a lot of the times you had center stage by trying to follow him up and platforms and whatnot. Overall I think you committed to attacks that lost you control instead of keeping him boxed out of the middle. Didn't really see you go for up tilts (and I'm terrible at it so I can't say anything) but between lasers, bair, and uptilt, you could make it a lot harder for him to get back to a good position

-You also ended a few combos with bair that you could've extended by knocking him into the ground or a platform. A lot of these were because you couldn't get there fast enough from your shine, but there were a couple of instances at least I think. That also goes back to earlier though, where you should try to stick closer to the ground after shining. Maybe work on shinegrabs? Seems to be a good tool to sort of tie a lot of these things together.

Anyway I can't give really specific things and I'm bad so they would probably suck anyway but hopefully some of that helps

 

[unknown522]

So bones I looked at some of you vs Wenbo. Things that wshould instantaneously help you:

Shine oos a lot
Laser
Grab
Laser -> grab
Double shine sometimes on shield
Not trying to autocancel b-air spam
Uhhhh.... Stuff

Edit: spacing around his shield so that you don't get hit by oos options so much

 

[Wenbobular]

What about me

 

[unknown522]

Same things apply

 

[Wenbobular]

Haha ballin