PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

@ umbreon: Lol. I was sad to see some costly situations because of an u-throw at super high percents

@ pp: the vids are up. I just can't do it with my phone atm cuz it uses too much data

Edit: here's some reasoning about throwing peach off vs throwing up at high percents: basically when wanting to set up kills vs peach as marth, you usualy want to do it like a step-by-step thing when you remove her jump/float and then continue to either rack damage, or go for the finish. Throwing peach off the stage forces her to use her float and/or jump naturally, whereas when you throw up, there is a chance of getting stalled/tricked/baited with the float/jump/FF/etc. since peach already doesn't have the range to attack marth, or even grab the ledge with good edgeplay, you have automatically removed 1 of her best escape tools, making it easier to go for the kill. When she has to DI away/neutral, then the recovery gets hindered even more.

Though it is true that they can pull some tech trick, but going low, especially vs the top 5 characters is generally really bad because they have some sort of spike or projectile that also has low lag and you can punish the following tech (sans jiggs I guess).

More later. I have arrived at the gym. Lol

Quick edit: neither option is bad, but it's definitely more work with u-throw.

I for one man a fan of u-throw at low/mid percents though

Tech and wall hug vs DI away from the edge and space the up-B. That's aggravating lol and I dunno if I can get that on reaction or if it's better than Uthrow at higher %s or not. I'll toy with it but yeah either way again good point.

WELP

LETS GET TO WORK KEV

real talk, you do your full analysis by saturday, and i'll have mine done too. let's do them independently and trade notes.

go go 12 hours of homework lol

edit: ryan, you're not setting up the kill. upthrow is more work but it's also objectively better. i'd rather not post specifics here.

I can probably do it Thursday or Friday hopefully so that may work.

is doubleshine to 2 hit f-air legit shield pressure

I'm scared that an l-cancelled f-air can get shieldgrabbed

or should I stick with never shield pressuring and just shinegrabbing

Never tried it, but if you even slightly space the Fair it should be fine. Fair tends to trip people up on shield and what you described would likely shield stab.

 

[Bones0]

Wasn't there a discussion on the intentional gap given by 2nd shine in the air to waveland? It was something about how if you double shine too fast, it keeps them in shieldstun so they can't move even if they wanted to. The gap is there to bait the next movement but still tight enough to punish an attempt to counter attack.

You can leave a gap between shines by jumping out of the first one slower and still stay grounded. I have actually been working on this myself, and I can double shine really slowly pretty consistently. It looks super ugly, but it will work vs. characters with slow OoS options. I don't think I'll use it much though because grabs are just too big of a risk if they happen to try to grab after a shine.

My Falco was buuuuuutttttt this tourney, but we should still go over everything we see about it anyway! Teams and singles. I'd like to have both characters for stage CP'ing eventually and having one off tourney with Falco doesn't mean I can't learn from the videos. Tell me if you guys saw anything big!





See above.

Marth vs Peach isn't that terrible on DL. Well, I mean, it is LOL, but neutral isn't so bad there. That's why Azen always picked it I think. Marth gets soooo much room to WD/DD around! Movement is a huge part of why Marth wrecks Peach so abusing that on DL is fine. Also bigger platforms should help me with juggling since I can move quickly along them too.

Your question about whether Falco is still better there than Marth is very sound regardless of those points. I am pretty sure I'd rather play Falco there instead of Marth, especially since I think I just about mastered/got solid at edgeguarding Peach with Falco(about all I did better at/decently at vs AR with Falco lmao.) Dair to Dair still kills reasonably early there too!

I don't punish very well but I also never really thought Marth could COMBOOOOO Peach anyway. M2K had to juggle AR a lot as well. I subscribe to the "he's gonna die eventually anyway" approach to Marth so I don't risk trades. I could probably combo more and I'll definitely be asking around for more combo tricks and setups to minimize the amount of brainpower I have to use though, thanks for reminding me.

And it was fun!

Three things I'll point out:
1. When Armada was floating off stage and you were doing your jump out to threaten him with bairs, you always always jumped out twice while waiting, and then he drifted back right after the second threat. If you had delayed jumping out a second time, he'd be in much more of a pickle because his float would run right before you get to him instead.
2. You did a triple side-B at one point and it worked, but didn't do it much after that. Idk, I think it could be a quick damage builder that's easy to hit confirm instead of going for 2-3 more regrabs to match the same %.
3. You came down on top of him with a dair and without a double jump multiple times. For some reason he kept shielding, but I am sure the next time you play he will just nair OoS or nair trade with your dair any time you try that.

Btw also consider that if PP had used falco he would have been locked to falco g5

Ummm... no?

is doubleshine to 2 hit f-air legit shield pressure

I'm scared that an l-cancelled f-air can get shieldgrabbed

or should I stick with never shield pressuring and just shinegrabbing

The only "legit" shield pressure Falco has is multishining. Everything else can be escaped, and even multishining is beaten fairly easily by just holding shield and shield DIing. Whether or not you use a single or double shine before shield pressure is irrelevant to how safe the fair is. No matter what you do, doing the same thing every time will not work.

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. neat

2. far too risky as I have to start the input for the second without reliably being able to hit confirm the first hit of side B

3. well I didn't always do it and had to do side B stall mixups aka MINDGAMES

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm waiting for the day when Armada starts counterpicking against everyone and not just hungrybox.

 

[Wretched]

I'm waiting for the day when Armada starts counterpicking against everyone and not just hungrybox.

q ft

 

[genkaku]

pretty sure that is still 80% peach

 

[Wretched]

He's gonna pick up Shrek when Peepee's Marf gets better

 

[Voltz]

Good stuff at GF; Armada is just too good.

He's gonna pick up Shrek when Peepee's Marf gets better

Lol, do you mean Shiek?


Autocorrect is hilarious.

 

[Life]

So I think I'm picking up Falco now, what are some things I can practice on my own? (glanced through the stickies, not much really stuck out at me other than multishines which I'm working on)

 

[Voltz]

1. neat

2. far too risky as I have to start the input for the second without reliably being able to hit confirm the first hit of side B

3. well I didn't always do it and had to do side B stall mixups aka MINDGAMES

Do what Hbox does (bair! bair! bair! Bair). Lol

So I think I'm picking up Falco now, what are some things I can practice on my own? (glanced through the stickies, not much really stuck out at me other than multishines which I'm working on)

Do 99 Stock M2k trainig in the ditto (against a level 9 CPU). Also, use L cancelled bairs to start combos (instead of dair) use dair after 20%.



Also waveshine.

 

[Life]

Do 99 Stock M2k trainig in the ditto (against a level 9 CPU). Also, use l cancelled bairs to start combos (instead of dair) use dair after 20%.

what do you mean by M2K training?

thanks for the bair tip btw, I've kinda been slowly noticing that I need to use other things at low percents

Also waveshine.

Good catch, I tend to mess this up a lot (as well as ledgehop wavedash which I'm also working on)

Also, something I noticed while screwing around right now: falco lasers despawn right before they would KO the opponent off a walkoff. Doesn't matter competitively but interesting (albeit one you probably all knew about--I've been around long enough to know there's hardly anything unknown anymore).

 

[Voltz]

M2k training is playing against a CPU with no time limit and 99 stocks; it is easier to stay focused within one match. You keep momentum better.



Falco's lasers can stun an opponent, preventing them from DIing, making it appear as though the lasers have KO power. I noticed this when I side smashed Fox at 60%, I realized he would not die from that, so I lasered him when he was about to stop his momentum, and he died.

 

[Swann]

Shoutouts to triple triple posts.

How do you keep your opponent scared/respectful when your character gets death-touched by so much of the cast? I suppose I just need to work on converting hits to huge damage or stocks and being consistent in that regard.


@Life: practice moving as fluidly as possible. Being able to make your character do what you want should be your #1 priority, ahead of flashy falco things.

 

[Voltz]

Nair/bair (L cancelled) starts combos best. I will be back tomorrow.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah... don't listen to anything Voltz said. No offense.

Watching vids should answer the large majority of your questions.

 

[Voltz]

:/

 

[Zoler]

I agree with everything Voltz said, Bones0 you don't know what you're talking about.

Also Voltz you forgot to mention side-b that is also an excellent combo starter.

 

[Wretched]

Lol, do you mean Shiek?

No

I mean Shrek

No autocorrect

 

[jerflip]

No

I mean Shrek

No autocorrect

i wanna make a game called finding shrek

its like finding nemo, except you find shrek

 

[crush]

What do vs peach. Keep dsmash get -_- begins I think peach is broken
#banpeach2013

 

[Xyzz]

Peach is broken, don't worry about it, just lose your matches and give us free wins <3

on a more serious note: There's little to no reason to keep getting downsmashed by her as Falco (outside of some stuff like low fc aerial into a dsmash that shield stabs).
On the top of my head I can think of some things that could go wrong:
- you come from below and predictably jump into a Peach standing on a platform. Don't do this, you should use safe pokes from below or wait for her to do the dsmash anticipating your jump and punish afterwards with whatever you deem most appropriate. If you really want to, you can jump into her occasionally. Just really keep it occasional.
- You do stuff that can be CCed. Avoid this, use more dair (can't even be CCed at zero percent). Of course sometimes you will want to punish some lag on her part with jab->killing move, and she just happens to be out of lag already... those things can happen, but it'd be your own fault, if you keep jumping into her with nair at low percents.
- You whiff stuff: She's slow, her WD doesn't go very far. There's little reason to whiff a lot.

 

[crush]

I don't jump into platform dsmash I'm not ********.


I didnt aks for a critque ***et I asked for a peach ban

 

[ChivalRuse]

You should have phrased it better. Instead of saying "what do vs peach" you could have said "There's nothing to do vs Peach. Ban please."

 

[Wretched]

Jump into platform downsmashes for bait
If you time it right, you can use Falcon's double jump out of his short hop to get JUST UNDER the top platform. She will dsmash and you get a free punish

Why are you even in the Falco thread tho

You play Falcon

 

[crush]

Jump into platform downsmashes for bait
If you time it right, you can use Falcon's double jump out of his short hop to get JUST UNDER the top platform. She will dsmash and you get a free punish

Why are you even in the Falco thread tho

You play Falcon

>just under
>free punish
>implying i wont get sucked into the supermassive

 

[Wretched]

I just bait dsmashes and then use Falco's long Uair hitbox to get a free punish. Favorite MU <3 I dunno what to tell you to do with Falcon, because if you Uair her, you'll probably get sucked in. Maybe a well spaced Bair?

This is all assuming that she Dsmashes right as you reach the peak of your jump and you fast fall. Such ****ty conjecture lul

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm waiting for the day when Armada starts counterpicking against everyone and not just hungrybox.

I really hope he does.

He's gonna pick up Shrek when Peepee's Marf gets better

LOOOOLLLLLL

So I think I'm picking up Falco now, what are some things I can practice on my own? (glanced through the stickies, not much really stuck out at me other than multishines which I'm working on)

edge dashes, edgehop double lasers, platform wavelands, side b cancels and edgecancels, shine grabs, edgecanceled aerials.

How do you keep your opponent scared/respectful when your character gets death-touched by so much of the cast? I suppose I just need to work on converting hits to huge damage or stocks and being consistent in that regard.

1. have a good punishment game so they fear it as well
2. work on teching and edge canceling combos/throws so you can live longer
3. have a good neutral/laser game

 

[Voltz]

I agree with everything Voltz said, Bones0 you don't know what you're talking about.

Also Voltz you forgot to mention side-b that is also an excellent combo starter.

Yeah, side b is pretty useful.

 

[Purpletuce]

Damn, I feel like most people in this thread aren't even coherent.

(Nothing useful to say.)

(Rides PP's PP.)

(Complains about a MU.)

 

[Zoler]

I feel like the only ones that really understand Falco is me and Voltz.. and maybe PP. (maybe)

 

[Voltz]

I feel like the only ones that really understand Falco is me and Voltz.. and maybe PP. (maybe)

Lol, PP is the best here.

 

[Life]

Thanks PP. You're awesome btdubz.

Damn, I feel like most people in this thread aren't even coherent.

(Nothing useful to say.)

(Rides PP's PP.)

(Complains about a MU.)

Then either contribute something, or ask a question that allows someone else to contribute by answering.

 

[Wretched]

Rofl Zoler get off it.

 

[Niko45]

One of the reasons I hate up throwing peach (ESPECIALLY on dreamland) is that it's a pretty serious commitment to try to cover top platform. Can be pretty unsafe if she's saving her recovery tools. Now, maybe you were completely fine with her getting top platform and were just really playing for her to come down off the platform (I don't really remember) but idk, I can't play that patiently LOL.

I would have liked to have seen some bthrow maybe. Basically gives the height an up throw would have given you if she were 50-70% lower, which means she's not high enough to drift wherever she pleases expending no recovery tools in the process. If she wants top platform, she has to expend SOMETHING to get there. No clue how much it would have really helped tho.

 

[Voltz]

PP- what is your favorite MU?

 

[The Business]

>just under
>free punish
>implying i wont get sucked into the supermassive

if you'll notice, your text didn't turn green.

that's a sign that doing >this doesn't do anything on this site.

so ****ing stop it.

 

[bolt.]

if you'll notice, your text didn't turn green.

that's a sign that doing >this doesn't do anything on this site.

so ****ing stop it.

>Calm down

 

[Metal Reeper]

Any tips on getting falcos dub lasers low? Mine suck *** I really wanna do it with x and not tgs control stick way. Please don't make me use control stick ;/

 

[Wretched]

Traditionally, I short hop, and then double jump, then laser at the peak of my jump and fast fall. The second laser should come out at ground level. That's just how I do it, but I get dash attacked by Marfs and then they eat me up without my second jump ;-;

 

[Anand]

I assumed he was asking about double lasers from the ledge, since that is the more technically intensive one (and that's the one where it's possible to make both lasers low).