PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[unknown522]

Good work PP! I rushed home as fast as possible from work to watch the GFs and used up all of my data bandwidth for my cell phone.

Some things need to be discussed though

 

[Wretched]

New topic of discussion:

How to not approach a Marth who is waiting by the ledge

 

[Xyzz]

The answer to that goes something like this:

Pew pew pew dd pew pew dd dd pew pew pew

 

[unknown522]

There is nothing wrong with that if you play a good edge game. People waiting at the edge can be used against them too

 

[Xyzz]

I really like going for shine grabs a lot against people who have their back against the ledge, because it's a pretty safe option and the rewards are fine for me (from the grab I'll usually just go for f throw > edge guard attempt (I like Falcos edge guard), and well if the nair / dair > shine shield stabs or hits for whatever reason... It's Falco, he can still get the spiking dair after whiffing the grab most of the time lol).

 

[Wretched]

I don't think that there is any scenario where you should, without any reason, force yourself into a position where Marth is completely dominant and has the power to kill you at 0%.

The wonderful thing about Falco is that he doesn't have to ever put himself in that position, and people like Peepee understand that and they don't engage Marth in situations that they're bound to lose.

Mang0 was just dumb yesterday and I'm really disappointed by his performance.

 

[unknown522]

So anywhere on the stage?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

There is nothing wrong with that if you play a good edge game. People waiting at the edge can be used against them too

Yeah for realz

its a double edge sword

 

[Wretched]

So anywhere on the stage?

ro fl

 

[AvengerAngel]

Great games, PP.
I couldn't understand why you went Marth vs. Armada's Peach in Dream Land. It doesn't look such a great stage for that match-up. Wouldn't a safe/campy Falco/Fox do better than Marth?
And your stage control with Marth was just amazing. I felt like the biggest issue was your inability to land heavy combos and/or finish Armada quickly enough. Even though you could control him very well, letting him past 150% was like fighting a Peach with 7-8 stocks with just 4 stocks. Have you tried to watch some M2K's Marth vs. Peach vids? Or have you asked him for advice?
Anyway congratulations for accomplishing something that no Marth main managed to do for years: taking a whole set from Armada x)

 

[Metakill]

PP's Marth is easily at M2k's level, he just need to use more Dair and Fsmash.... When he did it, he KO'd Armada at 40% at win the first GF.

On topic, and this may sound/read a little dummie but how to left edge and do the double laser but more grounded? When I do it is too high for hitting in example Fox or Falco

 

[Bones0]

Thanks PP for winning me $5 in your loser's set vs. M2K. Can't believe you did it Zenith style again where you played FD-PS-PS-FD. God I hate DSRm. You should try and get TOs to use my ruleset so you don't have to play FD twice simply because M2K won on your first cp. :D

PP's Marth is easily at M2k's level, he just need to use more Dair and Fsmash.... When he did it, he KO'd Armada at 40% at win the first GF.

On topic, and this may sound/read a little dummie but how to left edge and do the double laser but more grounded? When I do it is too high for hitting in example Fox or Falco

LHDL height is determined by two factors:
1. How low you drop before jumping, and
2. How soon after jumping your laser.

Most people can't do low lasers that well because they do #2 too slowly.

 

[unknown522]

ro fl

lol. It's not marth's fault if players can't 0-death off a hit.

 

[Xyzz]

LHDL height is determined by two factors:
1. How low you drop before jumping, and
2. How soon after jumping your laser.

Most people can't do low lasers that well because they do #2 too slowly.

I use the control stick for the jump in my lhdl's, because I'm too slow with #2 otherwise. *lalala* yeah, I know my tech skill is horrible in some departments :D

Ah btw.: why do most people who use double shine shield pressure opt for WD down after the double shine instead of going for a sh dair?

Regarding Mango vs M2k: To me it seems like he usually got fair pay offs for taking the fight to M2k. He should've payed more attention to M2k moving out of the way, but his approaches looked really safe otherwise.
Also: would Mango really be Mango anymore if he stopped playing in his aggressive style? I sure as hell LOVE him for the way he refuses to camp... (:

 

[unknown522]

I dunno man. He camped hbox pretty hard

 

[Xyzz]

Point taken. I wanted to defend him like "yeah he shot some more lasers than usually, but didn't really camp that hard and I've seen fox players shoot much more lasers against floaties"... but I realized how ridiculous that sounds.
Guess, I'm just a fanboy after all :D
#Mangonation

oh and I'm pretty sad I didn't get to see you at Apex, I really like your Fox as well
Well, there's always the next tourney and stuff, eh? (:

 

[Wretched]

Ah btw.: why do most people who use double shine shield pressure opt for WD down after the double shine instead of going for a sh dair?

Consistently double shining during shield pressure is kinda hard and throws a lot of people off, so they waveland down with that being a way to save yourself if you don't shine fast enough. You'll see players like Wes drop double shines and he'll preemptively waveland because he will get punished if he dairs, as it will come out as a double jump dair instead of a SH dair. Also, I think the thought process when shield pressuring is "Okay, this character might try to grab me after this shine, so I'll shine again," so when the shine lands, the waveland gives more combo options.

People just need to practice against more handicapped bowsers and starmans so that their shines aren't off.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Point taken. I wanted to defend him like "yeah he shot some more lasers than usually, but didn't really camp that hard and I've seen fox players shoot much more lasers against floaties"... but I realized how ridiculous that sounds.
Guess, I'm just a fanboy after all :D
#Mangonation

Congrats, you're one of the 3 reasonable ones.

<3

 

[genkaku]

westballz's wavelands are intentional
there was a large discussion about whether it was a good mixup (because of invulnerability on airdodge) or not
I think people have just started to roll out when it happens, though

 

[noobird]

You can just buffer roll to get out of that pressure and there's not a really good followup for falco if he does do that waveland straight down. I don't understand why so many stay in shield vs. doubleshine waveland down shield pressure =/. probably scared they'll get punished for rolling?

i think wavedash back might be a good mixup to cover the roll in and keep center stage; double shine grab is also good for people who just stay in their shield all day (also really easy to do if you can double shine already; just practice on the bowser with 9 handicap like eggm!)

i'm not sure about triple shine because of shield di, but i can see it being really effective because of possible shield stabbing on the third shine? someone correct me on this if i'm wrong

edit: oh yeah and mango was camping hbox HARD. looking like m2k fox out there with the double lasers. I was really sad to see pp v armada in wf but the marth dangggg

 

[Bones0]

It's not that difficult to double shine consistently. Wes presumably does the second shine in the air and wavelands because it's easier. He posted that he does it for the airdodge invincibility, but the invincibility is virtually meaningless because it's never going to last long enough to actually dodge anything. As far as being safe, a grounded double shine followed by a waveland is just as safe as a single shine followed by a waveland (i.e. not safe at all, they can shield grab, do quick moves OoS, and roll). Also, you'll probably never shield stab with a shine because even if you are spaced as far from the opponent as possible, their shield covers their left and right side until it becomes extremely small.

 

[ElloEddy]

You can just buffer roll to get out of that pressure and there's not a really good followup for falco if he does do that waveland straight down. I don't understand why so many stay in shield vs. doubleshine waveland down shield pressure =/. probably scared they'll get punished for rolling?

i think wavedash back might be a good mixup to cover the roll in and keep center stage; double shine grab is also good for people who just stay in their shield all day (also really easy to do if you can double shine already; just practice on the bowser with 9 handicap like eggm!)

i'm not sure about triple shine because of shield di, but i can see it being really effective because of possible shield stabbing on the third shine? someone correct me on this if i'm wrong

edit: oh yeah and mango was camping hbox HARD. looking like m2k fox out there with the double lasers. I was really sad to see pp v armada in wf but the marth dangggg

thank you ...just roll when you see a falco go for shield pressure ..and mix up where you roll and when you roll and jump away after you roll or Wave dash back

 

[ElloEddy]

New topic of discussion:

How to not approach a Marth who is waiting by the ledge

bait his ...patient campy *** and mix up lasers pressure or just wait

 

[Acryte]

moved10char

 

[Beat!]

There's a PP thread in the Marth boards as well.

 

[Crusayer]

Wasn't there a discussion on the intentional gap given by 2nd shine in the air to waveland? It was something about how if you double shine too fast, it keeps them in shieldstun so they can't move even if they wanted to. The gap is there to bait the next movement but still tight enough to punish an attempt to counter attack.

 

[Dr Peepee]

My Falco was buuuuuutttttt this tourney, but we should still go over everything we see about it anyway! Teams and singles. I'd like to have both characters for stage CP'ing eventually and having one off tourney with Falco doesn't mean I can't learn from the videos. Tell me if you guys saw anything big!

Great games, PP.
I couldn't understand why you went Marth vs. Armada's Peach in Dream Land. It doesn't look such a great stage for that match-up. Wouldn't a safe/campy Falco/Fox do better than Marth?
And your stage control with Marth was just amazing. I felt like the biggest issue was your inability to land heavy combos and/or finish Armada quickly enough. Even though you could control him very well, letting him past 150% was like fighting a Peach with 7-8 stocks with just 4 stocks. Have you tried to watch some M2K's Marth vs. Peach vids? Or have you asked him for advice?
Anyway congratulations for accomplishing something that no Marth main managed to do for years: taking a whole set from Armada x)

See above.

Marth vs Peach isn't that terrible on DL. Well, I mean, it is LOL, but neutral isn't so bad there. That's why Azen always picked it I think. Marth gets soooo much room to WD/DD around! Movement is a huge part of why Marth wrecks Peach so abusing that on DL is fine. Also bigger platforms should help me with juggling since I can move quickly along them too.

Your question about whether Falco is still better there than Marth is very sound regardless of those points. I am pretty sure I'd rather play Falco there instead of Marth, especially since I think I just about mastered/got solid at edgeguarding Peach with Falco(about all I did better at/decently at vs AR with Falco lmao.) Dair to Dair still kills reasonably early there too!

I don't punish very well but I also never really thought Marth could COMBOOOOO Peach anyway. M2K had to juggle AR a lot as well. I subscribe to the "he's gonna die eventually anyway" approach to Marth so I don't risk trades. I could probably combo more and I'll definitely be asking around for more combo tricks and setups to minimize the amount of brainpower I have to use though, thanks for reminding me.

And it was fun!

 

[clowsui]

Btw also consider that if PP had used falco he would have been locked to falco g5

 

[Purpletuce]

PP, what was your reasoning for being so conservative with F-smash?

The only thing I can think of is you might have been trying to save it for a mix-up when you needed it (keeping him off guard), like conditioning him to not expect it, or that you thought the risk of the lag on the move didn't make it worth the reward, and you would have rather not commit to any of Marth's slower moves.

I know you had to have known what you were doing, but I think everyone wants to know.

Understood if you want to remain mysterious though.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, what was your reasoning for being so conservative with F-smash?

The only thing I can think of is you might have been trying to save it for a mix-up when you needed it (keeping him off guard), like conditioning him to not expect it, or that you thought the risk of the lag on the move didn't make it worth the reward, and you would have rather not commit to any of Marth's slower moves.

I know you had to have known what you were doing, but I think everyone wants to know.

Understood if you want to remain mysterious though.

Fsmash isn't necessary and it requires a pretty big read to connect with. I'd rather get an Uptilt kill a little later in exchange for safety and a little more brainpower use. Sometimes I didn't do that because to ensure more safety....and that may have been where problems arose but that could also be related to AR's decisions(slightly...most my fault lol.)

 

[Deleted member]

no you should definitely dair and fsmash more. when you did you killed him at 40! a hard read isn't that bad for you, you have to read him every time you hit him anyway because marth is a bad character and loses to peach.

if you just dash attacked more you could probably set up some combos. your combos were really bad in that set.

maybe if you crouch his downsmash the first time he won't be able to combo you back either. combos are much more important in marth vs peach anyway.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Did you like my Uthrow CG on him max

 

[unknown522]

Yo. Since you're back PP, I gotta tell you tht at high percent vs peach as marth, you really need to throw him off the level. Especially since you were talking about using brainpower, peach has lots of problems in many matchups when either you take away her jump/float, or when she is just too low to go way above your attacks. I can almost guarantee you that you would've done way better if you had just thrown armada off the stage instead of throwing up at high prevents when you grabbed somewhat near the edge. Especially if you could f-throw. If he DI'd in, you get an f-smash, if not it becomes harder for him to recover. Since the throw has low lag. Peach has no real way to defend when offstage vs marth.

The most important thing is that you needed to f-smash/u-tilt (or even d-tilt) when you baited an air dodge, or forced an up-b and he couldn't go over you. There is absolutely no risk on your end when he's done the parasol because:

1. Move ends too early for peach to punish/get close

2. He's more than likely over 100%, so can't even ledge attack

3. More than likely don't need to tip unless its DL64 below like 130% so you have more room to f-smash.


Something also really good is when you're in that stall war when he's trying to wait you out with the parasol, once he reaches below a certain point, you can just take the ledge and hog. If he wants to go earlier, then f-smash. Another thing that's great is that you can have you're back turned since f-smash is 1 input, but then opt out for the WD hog.


Regarding the neutral game there were times on DL where he was floating almost right above you and you reached in his space. There was no chance of a trade, but you would never swing. Many times you could've f-air'd (FH probably) (especially on the last 2 stocks iirc) him out of his float. If you hit then you can destroy peach especially at low percents because the 1 escape tool she has is gone. Especially if both the jump and float is used.




With falco, regarding the Parasol stall war when he's trying to wait you out on recovery, there were a few times where you could have FH rising d-air offstage to kill him. Falco's air speed is enough to catch him drifting back, and also again low risk because he has to get to the stage, but you will make it back first (and maybe hit with your phantasm, but not too likely).


I'll timestamp for you at some point when I am at home.

I am 100% positive you could've won the next set with minor adjustments that you as a player are capable of doing.

 

[Anand]

Btw also consider that if PP had used falco he would have been locked to falco g5

Wait, why?

 

[Deleted member]

Yo. Since you're back PP, I gotta tell you tht at high percent vs peach as marth, you really need to throw him off the level.

oh man not you too?

look, i leave posts sometimes like presents. the same kind of presents that house cats leave in your slippers. but at least i know i'm being a **** on purpose. you're above this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo. Since you're back PP, I gotta tell you tht at high percent vs peach as marth, you really need to throw him off the level. Especially since you were talking about using brainpower, peach has lots of problems in many matchups when either you take away her jump/float, or when she is just too low to go way above your attacks. I can almost guarantee you that you would've done way better if you had just thrown armada off the stage instead of throwing up at high prevents when you grabbed somewhat near the edge. Especially if you could f-throw. If he DI'd in, you get an f-smash, if not it becomes harder for him to recover. Since the throw has low lag. Peach has no real way to defend when offstage vs marth.

The most important thing is that you needed to f-smash/u-tilt (or even d-tilt) when you baited an air dodge, or forced an up-b and he couldn't go over you. There is absolutely no risk on your end when he's done the parasol because:

1. Move ends too early for peach to punish/get close

2. He's more than likely over 100%, so can't even ledge attack

3. More than likely don't need to tip unless its DL64 below like 130% so you have more room to f-smash.


Something also really good is when you're in that stall war when he's trying to wait you out with the parasol, once he reaches below a certain point, you can just take the ledge and hog. If he wants to go earlier, then f-smash. Another thing that's great is that you can have you're back turned since f-smash is 1 input, but then opt out for the WD hog.


Regarding the neutral game there were times on DL where he was floating almost right above you and you reached in his space. There was no chance of a trade, but you would never swing. Many times you could've f-air'd (FH probably) (especially on the last 2 stocks iirc) him out of his float. If you hit then you can destroy peach especially at low percents because the 1 escape tool she has is gone. Especially if both the jump and float is used.

I don't know if I like throwing him offstage when his % is higher because he can tech edge things. It's he has to come at a certain angle and maybe tech vs he will probably take sword but can come down on either side and switch up a lot. Not sure if I wanna switch it up or decide on one over the other at higher percents. May just be a testing/situational thing.

oh that fsmash vs WD edgehog thing is good. I'll test that and let you know what happens, thanks!!!

can you show me video examples of that neutral point when the vids come out btw?

 

[unknown522]

@ umbreon: Lol. I was sad to see some costly situations because of an u-throw at super high percents

@ pp: the vids are up. I just can't do it with my phone atm cuz it uses too much data

Edit: here's some reasoning about throwing peach off vs throwing up at high percents: basically when wanting to set up kills vs peach as marth, you usualy want to do it like a step-by-step thing when you remove her jump/float and then continue to either rack damage, or go for the finish. Throwing peach off the stage forces her to use her float and/or jump naturally, whereas when you throw up, there is a chance of getting stalled/tricked/baited with the float/jump/FF/etc. since peach already doesn't have the range to attack marth, or even grab the ledge with good edgeplay, you have automatically removed 1 of her best escape tools, making it easier to go for the kill. When she has to DI away/neutral, then the recovery gets hindered even more.

Though it is true that they can pull some tech trick, but going low, especially vs the top 5 characters is generally really bad because they have some sort of spike or projectile that also has low lag and you can punish the following tech (sans jiggs I guess).

More later. I have arrived at the gym. Lol

Quick edit: neither option is bad, but it's definitely more work with u-throw.

I for one man a fan of u-throw at low/mid percents though

 

[bertbusdriver]

can you show me video examples of that neutral point when the vids come out btw?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBMgkr-s4jI

vids are already out, kevin. Awesome adjustment going marth btw. My voice was destroyed after apex from cheering for you lol.

 

[Deleted member]

WELP

LETS GET TO WORK KEV

real talk, you do your full analysis by saturday, and i'll have mine done too. let's do them independently and trade notes.

go go 12 hours of homework lol

edit: ryan, you're not setting up the kill. upthrow is more work but it's also objectively better. i'd rather not post specifics here.

 

[ruhtraeel]

is doubleshine to 2 hit f-air legit shield pressure

I'm scared that an l-cancelled f-air can get shieldgrabbed

or should I stick with never shield pressuring and just shinegrabbing