• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Bones0

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Squirt said:
May I ask what a crossover is?

Also, I just read the Advanced Buffers section of SCOTU's Shield Pressure Research Project. I was wondering how hard it is to do.
Click to expand...
I think most of those are BS, honestly. Stuff like buffering shield grabs works in theory because you're just buffering a JC OoS, and then grabbing before you leave the ground, but you can't actually buffer the grab, so it's the same speed as pressing A as soon as you realize you want to grab. Also, if you decide after their aerial that you don't want to grab, you're already buffering a jump and can't really stop it. If you're just pressing A you commit as late as possible to unshielding. You'll also have many scenarios where you won't want to buffer after their aerial because they'll just shine/jab/anything and wreck you. If you're just pressing A, then you can anticipate these mixups and grab more precisely. I forget what the others were, but they're probably equally BS if it doesn't take reaction time into account.

Mahone said:
Hey, you guys remember milk matches?

Anyone wanna do a five cup mmm?
Click to expand...
Yes, and no.
 
T

tarheeljks

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
1,857
Location
land of the free
eh, he didn't say wes was was more skilled. didn't imply it either-- he said wes had a legitimate shot of winning (did you see their set at nw manifest?). most would prob agree w/him that the mus carry significant weight when assessing players' relative likelihood of pulling upsets. i also think wes' aggressive, high variance style of play works well in dittos/is a good way to fight pp*, and also results in really high peaks where he will push even the best players


*albeit a style that can result in a player looking worse on average (more likely to get owned badly), but will produce more wins
 
Squirt

Squirt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 28, 2011
Messages
105
Location
Mint Hill North Carolina
Bones0 said:
I think most of those are BS, honestly. Stuff like buffering shield grabs works in theory because you're just buffering a JC OoS, and then grabbing before you leave the ground, but you can't actually buffer the grab, so it's the same speed as pressing A as soon as you realize you want to grab. Also, if you decide after their aerial that you don't want to grab, you're already buffering a jump and can't really stop it. If you're just pressing A you commit as late as possible to unshielding. You'll also have many scenarios where you won't want to buffer after their aerial because they'll just shine/jab/anything and wreck you. If you're just pressing A, then you can anticipate these mixups and grab more precisely. I forget what the others were, but they're probably equally BS if it doesn't take reaction time into account.



Yes, and no.
Click to expand...
Sorry to keep beating on the same drum, but if I buffer a roll as soon as the first shine comes out, I will always escape so long as my opponent does't double shine? Disregarding that this will get predictable.
 
Bones0

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Squirt said:
Sorry to keep beating on the same drum, but if I buffer a roll as soon as the first shine comes out, I will always escape so long as my opponent does't double shine? Disregarding that this will get predictable.
Click to expand...
Yep. A perfectly timed shield grab after the shine will also work if the Falco is at least two frames slow on a shine-nair/bair (obviously shine-grab beats shield grab though).
 
Squirt

Squirt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 28, 2011
Messages
105
Location
Mint Hill North Carolina
Bones0 said:
Yep. A perfectly timed shield grab after the shine will also work if the Falco is at least two frames slow on a shine-nair/bair (obviously shine-grab beats shield grab though).
Click to expand...
So.... any chance... say, you make a guide that just says what beats what pertaining to shield pressure? :chuckle:
I suppose anyone could study the frame data from the sources available but a straight up list would be awesome.
The first two actions in shield pressure seem easy enough to calculate what beats what, but after you go into like an shffl or anything delayed I don't know what beats what, that's why I usually just remain in my shield and roll away eventually.
 
Bones0

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Squirt said:
So.... any chance... say, you make a guide that just says what beats what pertaining to shield pressure? :chuckle:
I suppose anyone could study the frame data from the sources available but a straight up list would be awesome.
The first two actions in shield pressure seem easy enough to calculate what beats what, but after you go into like an shffl or anything delayed I don't know what beats what, that's why I usually just remain in my shield and roll away eventually.
Click to expand...
You can't really make a guide for shield pressure because there's too many options. There can be huge option differences between someone nairing as late as possible vs. nairing a few frames before late as possible. At the end of the guide I will have listed almost every single move as a possible counterattack depending on how many frames they waited to aerial and how many frames they waited before FFing. Your second paragraph makes it sound like you think shield stun stacks, which it doesn't. Nair-shine and shine have the same amount of stun, so what they SHFFL at you with doesn't affect shield stun timing if you're going to hold shield until they shine. Just look at the thread I linked and you can see how many frames of stun shine and aerials have. Then just check the appropriate character board to see how many frames it takes the move to come out. Then add in frames spent jumping (only 1 frame is needed for usmash and up-B OoS because they are JCed; other moves force you to use all 5 frames of Falco's jumpsquat).

You really don't even need frame data for this stuff as long as your opponent is good at late aerials and shining properly. You can just test your different options and see what works. This also automatically accounts for the fact that you'll almost never be frame perfect in the real world.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
tarheeljks said:
eh, he didn't say wes was was more skilled. didn't imply it either-- he said wes had a legitimate shot of winning (did you see their set at nw manifest?). most would prob agree w/him that the mus carry significant weight when assessing players' relative likelihood of pulling upsets. i also think wes' aggressive, high variance style of play works well in dittos/is a good way to fight pp*, and also results in really high peaks where he will push even the best players
Click to expand...
bingo. that and kevin's worst MU statistically is the falco mirror, and we're talking about a falco (west) that basically does nothing but shine. even if wes is a worse player (also debatable) his character and subsequent play choices are irrefutably better against the target opponent.
 
Bones0

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Umbreon said:
bingo. that and kevin's worst MU statistically is the falco mirror, and we're talking about a falco (west) that basically does nothing but shine. even if wes is a worse player (also debatable) his character and subsequent play choices are irrefutably better against the target opponent.
Click to expand...
weight wut?
 
Bones0

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Oh yeah. I guess that is debatable in the sense that maybe Wes has stepped it up recently because otherwise Kage's results are clearly much better overall even if he is more likely to lose the h2h with both players. I'd love to see Kage vs. Westballz. :D
 
Squirt

Squirt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 28, 2011
Messages
105
Location
Mint Hill North Carolina
Bones0 said:
You can't really make a guide for shield pressure because there's too many options. There can be huge option differences between someone nairing as late as possible vs. nairing a few frames before late as possible. At the end of the guide I will have listed almost every single move as a possible counterattack depending on how many frames they waited to aerial and how many frames they waited before FFing. Your second paragraph makes it sound like you think shield stun stacks, which it doesn't. Nair-shine and shine have the same amount of stun, so what they SHFFL at you with doesn't affect shield stun timing if you're going to hold shield until they shine. Just look at the thread I linked and you can see how many frames of stun shine and aerials have. Then just check the appropriate character board to see how many frames it takes the move to come out. Then add in frames spent jumping (only 1 frame is needed for usmash and up-B OoS because they are JCed; other moves force you to use all 5 frames of Falco's jumpsquat).

You really don't even need frame data for this stuff as long as your opponent is good at late aerials and shining properly. You can just test your different options and see what works. This also automatically accounts for the fact that you'll almost never be frame perfect in the real world.
Click to expand...
Very insightful, THANKS. I think I am satisfied... for now. :)
 
Twinkles

Twinkles

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
1,022
Location
SoCal
No one remembers Northwest Manifest anymore.

Wes came close to doing it once, he can definitely pull it off if things go his way.
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
Umbreon said:
bingo. that and kevin's worst MU statistically is the falco mirror, and we're talking about a falco (west) that basically does nothing but shine. even if wes is a worse player (also debatable) his character and subsequent play choices are irrefutably better against the target opponent.
Click to expand...
Is this really debatable? I'm assuming you're comparing Wes and PP. If not, then never mind.

No, I guess it is possible, but remember that PP has gotten a LOT better at the Falco ditto since NWM, and has gotten much better as a player as well.

If Westballz does really well at RoM, then I'd have to reevaluate my opinion on it, but while there is always a possibility, I would be genuinely shocked if Westballz beat PP. I just don't think they're the in the same class of player at this point.

Then again, if PP gets shined by Falco as Falco, there isn't much he can do, LOL. So perhaps I'll eat these words.
 
W

WestBallz

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
789
Location
Burbank/LA (818)
Kage LOOOOOOOL ur so bad at trolling. I can't wait to beat peepee and come back on the boards and just quote every dumb post uve made so far. Im not saying im gonna win for sure but i think i have a shot.
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
WestBallz said:
Kage LOOOOOOOL ur so bad at trolling. I can't wait to beat peepee and come back on the boards and just quote every dumb post uve made so far. Im not saying im gonna win for sure but i think i have a shot.
Click to expand...
I'm not even trolling, I'm stating facts. If you can really do it, then do it.. If you don't succeed then well.. better luck next time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom