Does double shine even beat buffered rolls? If so, what about when it's staled below 7 damage? Sveet? Strong bad?
Shine does hit frame 1, is jump cancelable on frame 4 and does 8% of damage (5 frames of base adv. on block), therefore if shine is jump canceled perfectly (that buffers, right?), we're looking at a +2 advantage (5 + 1 - 4 = 2).
CTRL+F: Falco's Multishine Data
It beats rolls and if you do it frame perfect or 1 frame slow with no staling. It doesn't beat buffered spot dodge since spot dodge is invincible on frame 2 (which is when the shine hits). Not that it matters since if you spotdodge to avoid the shine the Falco will typically get you with the grab, aerial, third shine, or whatever he did after. Since shine is so often staled and no one does perfect multishines, shield-SDIing and buffering a roll is the best escape option (unless you want to just hold shield which is definitely the safest option).
That means for shine grab that our grab-box connects on the 5th frame with whatever opponent inputted frame perfectly. So we lose to everything that hits frame 4 or earlier and pretty much beat everything that hits frame 5, because grab is just awesome like that in terms of priority, right?
For a second shine, we have to wait through the jump squat and then get a hit box on frame 6 because it's the first frame we're airborne and can therefore shine, which means we hit on frame 4 of our opponents reponse, which would mean somebody who buffered a roll would already be invulnerable, right? And we would clank with stuff that hits on frame 4, right?
If I am not mistaken, that would mean that there's little reason to double shine grab over shine grab in terms of catching OOS stuff between the first shine and the grab (what does hit on exactly frame 4? Fox shine OOS?), and it's pretty much resulting in the same situation if it works out.
So the main reason to do a double shine would be to get in a "free" second shine which leaves you at the same frame advantage than the first one, whittling down his shield some more, setting up for more likely shield stabs.
But if you're fine with getting the grab, because you think the throw will set up for sufficiently nice stuff anyways, then you should just go for shine grab imho... Unless you want to style, where I would totally agree that double shine grab looks rather sweet (:
I know Fox's shine OoS hits frame 4, and I'd bet Samus, Bowser, and a few other characters can up-OoS vs. it. You'd need damn good timing unless they're doing unbearably slow multishines though. The point of double shine grab over shine grab is that you can catch them doing OoS options to beat your shine-grab. If they spotdodge shine-grab, they counterattack easy. If you double shine grab, they avoid the second shine and get hit by the grab. It's just a mixup to keep them honest about when they move OoS. Alternatively, if they're expecting multishine-grabs, they're giving you a free shine-grab opportunity because even if you have a staled shine or execute it slowly they'll be holding shield for those later shines. Melee has millisecond mixups. **** this game.
"For a second shine, we have to wait through the jump squat and then get a hit box on frame 6"
Can't you shine while still in jumpsquat?
No, you have to be frame perfect by shining on the first airborne frame... I would just break shields all day if multishines were that easy. lol Browse that link above if you want to understand shine pressure.
I think the up smash and up b thing are in there so the intended players (happy party with items and four way everyone vs everyone smashers :D) wouldn't be required to practically hit up on the controlstick and "a" frame perfectly in order not to accidentally jump instead... Well, so now we can just hit a / b while still on the ground and the jumping animation will be canceled, and we get the respective move instead of the tap jump nobody asked for. While probably just intended to be used for leeway in the neutral position, this of course translated to doing this stuff out of shield or cancelling the dash that way. Well, and shine doesn't require you to hit up, so there's no reason to allow it out of jump squat (grab doesn't either, but probably splashes over because of the a + shield thingy :D)
You can however shield drop > shine on the first possible frame while on a platform, that would result in a grounded shine on the platform, which comes out on frame 2 :D
I don't think JCing only helps noobs in execution. Up-Bing or usmashing from the ground would be insanely difficult for everyone if you had to press up and the corresponding button frame perfect. This same mechanic is also why you have 3 frames to pivot fsmashes as opposed to the one frame demanded of other moves.
It's essentially a grounded shine OOS. Yeah, I've done it a few times in practice, and it always seemed like a cool idea, I guess. Faster than shine OOS, too. I've just not seen anyone do it yet.
Shine does not care about the rules.
And that stuff about jump cancelling makes sense...I think. Lol.
I don't think shinedrop platform cancels on the first frame. It feels like it's at least the second because when I do really fast shines they usually don't PC. When I dip further down into the plat they PC a lot more often. JC timing also affects it, so maybe it's just correlation to that and not actual causation.
Well, double shine makes him commit to one spot, and I've never seen anybody move between the aerial and his shine, so that one is pretty much in the same spot as well... three instances of shield DI do cover a lot of ground I think. I'm just too afraid of shield stabs to really use it :x
I move forward with my multishines. It can help, but most shield SDIing is done by trying to roll, and it just goes too far for Falco to still hit. If Falco's facing away it makes shield DIing a much smaller issue (also because people will tend to DI away when Falco's facing them, and towards him when he's facing away). I think shield DIing has potential uses, but beating shine pressure is probably not one of the better ones. There's other stuff you need to be doing when they start shining, and shield DIing is pointless if they happen to waveshine into or as a cross up anyway. What people should be doing is shield-SDIing Falco's aerial and then shield grabbing because of how crappy the front of the shine's hitbox is.
Still
the best Falco in the universe.
