PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

Tell him Ryan.

holy **** PP that was some of the greatest falco play I have seen in my life. good thing axe threw game 5 against you so you could beat mango in gf's

 

[Jake13]

Pp your dash dance has gotten less spazzy and more spazzy at the same time

I like it

 

[Van.]

gratz pp but now you HAVE to beat armada

america the beautiful

 

[unknown522]

Also, it seemed like Wes was able to DI & shine out of a lot of PP's combos, and then combo him back. Also pretty cool to see, and I think everyone should practice that **** haha

A little educational tidbit: I'm pretty sure I know the instances you're talkin about when this happened, but it didn't have to do with Wes' DI. It was because pp was too slow following up with the d-air. If you et out for the stun from the shine and get d-air'd then the opponent will land with no stun (like how you would normally drill someone out of the air). When you get d-air'd while still in shine stun, then it makes you tumble while standing on the ground (still in stun).

I mean Wes DI'd the shine far enough for PP to take too long to reach him, but yeah he just took too long to follow-up

 

[Vixen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3ywQhVCu8A

any critique? it's the only game i played that got recorded at Kings.

Wasn't my best performance. I was pretty upset after I learned that lucky bombing screwed me out of bracket.

games 2 and 3 are better watches. game 1 was mostly spent trying to get my groove back and ditch that negative mindset.

 

[Squirt]

Ok, I missed the PP vs west stuff and that entire tournament. Evidently I am not subscribed to the right youtube channels either because I don't see these videos. Can someone post links to these videos?

 

[Squirt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3ywQhVCu8A

any critique? it's the only game i played that got recorded at Kings.

Wasn't my best performance. I was pretty upset after I learned that lucky bombing screwed me out of bracket.

games 2 and 3 are better watches. game 1 was mostly spent trying to get my groove back and ditch that negative mindset.

I don't have great credentials for critiquing but one falco to another:

Seemed like you fixed a great deal by the last match but I would say in general
More lasers
More DDing
Better shield pressure.

There were times when you got punished for simply walking out of and ariel instead of shining like usual. Capt falcon doesn't have many options besides spotdoge and rolling to escape shield pressure so, as I learned recently, really all you have to do is mix up between shinegrab and double shine.

Overall I think you did well though.

 

[choknater]

i watched the GF set between pp and mango again and i picked up on a lot of genius stuff that they both were doing. one quote during the post-tournament interview with PP that stuck out to me was when he said "he [mango] is doing a lot of things people don't understand"

i was watching both of them very closely and i think i was able to pick up on what pp picked up on... just a little

PP: do you think you could elaborate a bit on what those things might be? or have you already posted that infamous 'mango post' that we were waiting for and i missed it? haha

one thing i noticed, at least, is that PP picks his positions extremely well. mango sorta throws out attacks in socal fashion, but the way he spaces himself and chooses his own spots has always been seen as unstoppable. what pp has done is taken his own defensive style and adapted it to mangos. since they're using the same character he's able to choose his own spots and disrupt mango's flow, and then capitalize really hard. pp doesn't quite capitalize in the way mango does, but i like it because it's less risky than how mango does it, and he's able to maintain the positions he wants.

like ken was saying lol, mango was really making some foolish decisions, but hey that's just how he is. like on FoD in the last game where mango just jumped out, missed an edgeguard, and then traded stocks with an up-B stage spike. stupid stuff, but it worked. pp's head was in it the whole time and i could see the concentration in his play. really really excellent decision making and i'm gonna steal some of it!!!

 

[Deleted member]

for the record, mango's positioning and decision-making are usually well beyond excellent. his **** is safe as hell if you actually watch him. again, usually. those KoC videos not so much lol.

 

[choknater]

yeah i know, i did watch. but pp was able to evade a lot of it and turn it into his own offense.

when i was watching i was like, ok, how is pp going to respond to these approaches. mango clearly plays aggressively for the whole game, and pp wasn't able to deal with it before. so i was looking out for what pp might be doing differently. to me it looked like pp had very specific goals in mind and went for new options. he got a lot of grabs in and controlled his own space well and didn't let mango in so easily. and when he retaliated he kept himself safe.

i had always thought that mango 'mastered' the falco ditto and was unbeatable, but i think pp is able to deal with it now... i think what's most interesting to me, though, is that it LOOKS like mango vs pp, and not mango vs mango. pp has stuck with his own style of decision making and was able to win. his movement and attack choices are what interest me the most

 

[oliman]

Mizuki-

what was blatant to me was your recovery and your back from the ledge thingy
1. you firebirded into the knee a couple of times. get your recovery angles down
2. you seemed to struggle on the ledge when falcon was intimidating you. don't exactly know how to fix this, just pointing out that it got you killed.

 

[unknown522]

Phantasm sweetspot nukka

I actually have been meaning to look at the vids though. My past week has been like:

Gym
Work
Smash (maybe)
Sleep

Repeat (maybe groceries)

Maybe when I get home after my stop at wal-mart. Lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

Btw pp, when you get back I would like to hear about your exp of carrying ken. You were so beast man! Your back must be hurting. Lol

haha dude I was on fire for ALMOST all of teams arrrrg my play felt nearly perfect!

I'll explain how I did so well in teams if you quote this post =)

DI toward platforms vs people with upthrow upsmash PP <_<

what

congrats PP...you went in like at P5.

in teams, yes

Good **** PP!

Give us a long post about why you won and what it means and stuff like you used to in the old days.

Planning on it! just not tonight haha

PP, you should talk about your set vs axe 'cause I felt like I wasn't picking up on some subtleties watching it.

okay, I'll talk about my set vs axe if you quote this post =)

Saw Axe use Pikachu's weird *** body contortions on the dsmash to avoid weston's utilt at least twice during that set. Pretty cool lol

Also, it seemed like Wes was able to DI & shine out of a lot of PP's combos, and then combo him back. Also pretty cool to see, and I think everyone should practice that **** haha

I felt like I messed up some but i'm not totally sure cuz I feel like he tricked me some too. I'll just have to watch the set I guess haha wes did show considerable improvement so that was nice.

Pp your dash dance has gotten less spazzy and more spazzy at the same time

I like it

=D

gratz pp but now you HAVE to beat armada

america the beautiful

dawg I gotchu no worries

A little educational tidbit: I'm pretty sure I know the instances you're talkin about when this happened, but it didn't have to do with Wes' DI. It was because pp was too slow following up with the d-air. If you et out for the stun from the shine and get d-air'd then the opponent will land with no stun (like how you would normally drill someone out of the air). When you get d-air'd while still in shine stun, then it makes you tumble while standing on the ground (still in stun).

I mean Wes DI'd the shine far enough for PP to take too long to reach him, but yeah he just took too long to follow-up

yeah I take too long to read DI sometimes but I think Wes had some good DI mixups too? not sure though I wanna re-watch the set.

i watched the GF set between pp and mango again and i picked up on a lot of genius stuff that they both were doing. one quote during the post-tournament interview with PP that stuck out to me was when he said "he [mango] is doing a lot of things people don't understand"

i was watching both of them very closely and i think i was able to pick up on what pp picked up on... just a little

PP: do you think you could elaborate a bit on what those things might be? or have you already posted that infamous 'mango post' that we were waiting for and i missed it? haha

one thing i noticed, at least, is that PP picks his positions extremely well. mango sorta throws out attacks in socal fashion, but the way he spaces himself and chooses his own spots has always been seen as unstoppable. what pp has done is taken his own defensive style and adapted it to mangos. since they're using the same character he's able to choose his own spots and disrupt mango's flow, and then capitalize really hard. pp doesn't quite capitalize in the way mango does, but i like it because it's less risky than how mango does it, and he's able to maintain the positions he wants.

like ken was saying lol, mango was really making some foolish decisions, but hey that's just how he is. like on FoD in the last game where mango just jumped out, missed an edgeguard, and then traded stocks with an up-B stage spike. stupid stuff, but it worked. pp's head was in it the whole time and i could see the concentration in his play. really really excellent decision making and i'm gonna steal some of it!!!

mango's decisions only look foolish because they were punished this time. watch impulse, he made some similar ones he profited from because I didn't know what he was doing. I can grab specifics if needed I wrote notes on this so it won't be hard to find when the youtube vids go up.

for the record, mango's positioning and decision-making are usually well beyond excellent. his **** is safe as hell if you actually watch him. again, usually. those KoC videos not so much lol.

*sigh

Phantasm sweetspot nukka

I actually have been meaning to look at the vids though. My past week has been like:

Gym
Work
Smash (maybe)
Sleep

Repeat (maybe groceries)

Maybe when I get home after my stop at wal-mart. Lol

feel this




edit: thanks sooooo much for all of the love guys! I'll give a nice post addressing all of you at once in the next few days hopefully! <333

 

[choknater]

awesome, thanks pp

 

[Deleted member]

thanks sooooo much for all of the love guys!

We love you Dr. Book!

 

[ShroudedOne]

Just throwing it out there that I'd be interested in those specifics of Mango's decision making, and how you figured out what he was doing.

Wenbo is talking about your set vs Axe where you DI'd like a noob away from the platforms only to get upsmashed.

 

[Deleted member]

Just throwing it out there that I'd be interested in those specifics of Mango's decision making, and how you figured out what he was doing.

it's pretty simple really. mango typically does things that are actually safe, or he does things that are "risky" when the opponent has **** position and is unlikely to punish him well. pull up a video where he's playing well against a good opponent and i'll go through it for you. his entire play style is basically jigglypuff so it's not hard to spot even in a random video.

 

[Wenbobular]

Just throwing it out there that I'd be interested in those specifics of Mango's decision making, and how you figured out what he was doing.

Wenbo is talking about your set vs Axe where you DI'd like a noob away from the platforms only to get upsmashed.

Basically this
I think it's a pretty basic defensive habit so I thought I'd point it out ~_~

Congrats on becoming the KING OF CALI though

 

[ShroudedOne]

it's pretty simple really. mango typically does things that are actually safe, or he does things that are "risky" when the opponent has **** position and is unlikely to punish him well. pull up a video where he's playing well against a good opponent and i'll go through it for you. his entire play style is basically jigglypuff so it's not hard to spot even in a random video.

Hopefully this one works?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m1a_qYvWdc&feature=relmfu

 

[choknater]

jigglypuff? that's an interesting way of putting it

 

[unknown522]

haha dude I was on fire for ALMOST all of teams arrrrg my play felt nearly perfect!

I'll explain how I did so well in teams if you quote this post =)

gogogo

yeah I take too long to read DI sometimes but I think Wes had some good DI mixups too? not sure though I wanna re-watch the set.

oh yeah, he has great SDI as well. I was talking to him about that stuff at BH2

 

[Deleted member]

Hopefully this one works?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m1a_qYvWdc&feature=relmfu

cool. let's count the number of times that kk blocks mango's anything, and then let's count the amount of time kk can do anything about it out of shield. i'll just do 1 stock because **** it this would take forever.

1:14 dair into shield spaced behind sheik. nair iis is to ofar away to hit, so KK only has 2 options: bair oos, or platform drop oos bair, and the shield covers both. i supposed KK could have WDed oos into grab but that's hella risky for little return.

1:23 shine to dair to shine, safe on shield from grab, which is actually what KK did after the dair was grab and get shined. he's also pinned to the side of the stage where AC bair becomes a useful threat.

1:27 followed the movement into a shine, which would have been safe except he screwed it up.

1:29 dair spaced on shield, can't be grabbed or hit by nair/fair oos

1:31 dair on shield, pushes sheik off of the platform so no retaliation is possible

1:32 another dair into shine into an aerial to cover the oos game, which only trades. since the window for sheik to nair oos is so small here, it's still mostly safe.

1:35 an unpunishable bair

1:37 a bair behind a weakened shield, sheik's nair oos is maybe close enough if he had blocked it but it's still not great. i think we're seeing a trend though that doing a low aerial shine on the back of sheik's shield is really good.

now let's look at mango's positioning:

1:08 retreating laser from neutral, covers drop through the platform or the odd aggressive run off fair. this basically establishes a neutral game rather than getting gimmicked out of it from the opening.

1:10 he's on a platform, and shields angling the shield at sheik. this lets him fish for lag to punish while staying relatively safe from what he expects sheik to do.

1:14 uses this technique to put sheik into lag, and then tries to dair the lag, but also goes behind sheik's shield. again, this is a form of positional advantage, as sheik's options are pretty limited from this point.

1:18 mango stays under sheik while she's moving because a rising bair is favorable against her position if she doesn't attack and will likely beat out any moves if he does attack.

1:24 mango finishes the combo on the platform to not have to play the guessing game of playing around get-up attack while still being able to follow the tech roll. positional advantage.

1:26 the laser prevents sheik from randomly attacking the landing lag, and then mango moves into position to block off escape routes. if sheik doesn't move, ac bair is good pressure, but sheik does moves and falco is ready with the shine. note that falco moves back in towards the stage before sheik starts her roll, meaning he was going to do this anyway and not as a reaction.

1:36 again sheik is pinned and is forced to move, and falco can just react by safely taking the platform to cover those options.

there's other stuff but it's basic like edgeguarding so there's no point explaining it.

 

[genkaku]

okay, I'll talk about my set vs axe if you quote this post =)

10quotesplease

 

[Vixen]

10quotesplease

quote .

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, that was certainly enlightening. Thanks Umbreon.

I'm going to have to start watching matches even more closely...

 

[The Business]

edit: thanks sooooo much for all of the love guys! I'll give a nice post addressing all of you at once in the next few days hopefully! <333

waiting for epic influx of knowledge to overwhelm my noob brain

 

[Deleted member]

Well, that was certainly enlightening. Thanks Umbreon.

I'm going to have to start watching matches even more closely...

you don't have to watch matches super close, you just notice trends and then break them down if you actually care. i realized that mango is basically shield-proof a long time ago with basically every character. his style is just surprisingly safe really.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why is everyone writing books or making Youtube videos about my matches with Mango now

God damn it

 

[Deleted member]

Why is everyone writing books or making Youtube videos about my matches with Mango now

God damn it

so we can see what a tier 1 player with a tier 1 character looks like when they're strategically helpless.

like even if you play it out correctly, your moves just aren't as good, and that's interesting.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I did see those videos MDZ put up, haha. Guess I'll go back and watch those, maybe.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not a tier 1 player yet =/

TBH I think you guys are picking on the upstart. I see how it is.

That said, it's kind of neat anyway 'cuz I notice a lot of bad decisions on my part when people do these. So it's useful to me. I think I could handle Mango's stuff better but it's hard 'cuz he's really hard to gimmick and his reaction time negates a lot of tricks I use vs various people. I could talk further about how our playstyles and skill-sets seem to interact when I watch us play but nah.

AFAIK if I want to improve my chances against him I can't drop anything when I get the ball rolling 'cuz I really think Sheik's best trait as a character is having the easiest, high quality combos that lead to death if she's good at not dropping the first whatever percent in regrabs - this means improving punishment is of utmost importance. Her next best trait is defense, so I probably need to improve that. From what I can tell from watching me vs Mango, I think I have a lot of bad habits he doesn't have and I felt strained at some points fighting him at TBH2 and even Rule 6 because I had to devote energy into not doing bad knee-jerk responses to things. So I have to control my impulse defenses more and break some bad habits so I don't have to focus on not doing them...

Mango's hard =/

And I think there's some other stuff but that stays off SWF because the noobs are vultures lately.

 

[Squirt]

Couple Quick questions: how do you correctly wavedash off a platform when moving forward? I usually get stuck in shield or roll or something. Do you press down as you get to the edge? This is bothering me a lot.

When you tech in place or techroll, how many frames are you vulnerable at the end before you can shield, shine, or spot doge?

 

[Warhawk]

Couple Quick questions: how do you correctly wavedash off a platform when moving forward? I usually get stuck in shield or roll or something. Do you press down as you get to the edge? This is bothering me a lot.

When you tech in place or techroll, how many frames are you vulnerable at the end before you can shield, shine, or spot doge?

If you're facing the direction that you want to fall off of the platform from you cannot do so by wavedashing. You can wavedash to the edge of the platform but from there you have to dash or walk off.

For teching in place you are vulnerable for 6 frames before you can do anything such as shine or shield. For techrolling you are vulnerable for 20 frames before you can do anything (techrolling data applies to Falco only).

 

[Jake13]

I'm pretty positive you can wavedash forward off a platform, you just have to be very close to the edge

Same principle as land dashing off of them

 

[Xyzz]

If you keep holding towards the ledge you'll slide off, if you don't you'll stop at it.

(slightly related but nto really relevant: I've edgeguarded with sh > waveland off the ledge > dj > rising dair before... nobody cheered though, stupid meanies )

 

[Vixen]

I'm not a tier 1 player yet =/

TBH I think you guys are picking on the upstart. I see how it is.

That said, it's kind of neat anyway 'cuz I notice a lot of bad decisions on my part when people do these. So it's useful to me. I think I could handle Mango's stuff better but it's hard 'cuz he's really hard to gimmick and his reaction time negates a lot of tricks I use vs various people. I could talk further about how our playstyles and skill-sets seem to interact when I watch us play but nah.

AFAIK if I want to improve my chances against him I can't drop anything when I get the ball rolling 'cuz I really think Sheik's best trait as a character is having the easiest, high quality combos that lead to death if she's good at not dropping the first whatever percent in regrabs - this means improving punishment is of utmost importance. Her next best trait is defense, so I probably need to improve that. From what I can tell from watching me vs Mango, I think I have a lot of bad habits he doesn't have and I felt strained at some points fighting him at TBH2 and even Rule 6 because I had to devote energy into not doing bad knee-jerk responses to things. So I have to control my impulse defenses more and break some bad habits so I don't have to focus on not doing them...

Mango's hard =/

And I think there's some other stuff but that stays off SWF because the noobs are vultures lately.

witholding information because you don't want us to improve is an ******* move.

The **** is your problem?

 

[Deleted member]

witholding information because you don't want us to improve is an ******* move.

The **** is your problem?

free·dom/ˈfrēdəm/

Noun:
The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Kirbykaze is one of the last people on earth who'd "withhold" information because he doesn't want people to improve, what are you talking about?

The fact that you responded in that way actually proves his point...

Also what Umbreon said.

 

[Xyzz]

I think David once said that he doesn't like to talk about stuff that's mostly related to his own personal playstyle and rather pointless for most people (or super controversial / time consuming to explain).
Accusing him of withholding anything relevant is super unfair. I think only PP is contributing on the same scale of both quality and quantity, everybody else is way behind (There's other incredibly good posters. Sorry to them, I still love you guys, but those two clearly win :D).

Also what Umbreon said. Nobody would be in any way obligated to spoon feed the products of his mental analysis to us. It's all in their videos anyways, just not in a easy to digest text based form, that does all the mental work for us (but maybe has more than the player even thinks of actually. Almost certainly, I doubt anybody is 100% conscious about what they do all the time).

 

[Beat!]

Nah man, KK never shares his insight on anything ever. Accusing him of "withholding information" is totally reasonable.