• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
I only get a "you're right"? Well, ok. :)

Also, what do you think of Armada's Falco, now that you were able to play it in some friendlies? Is it as janky and odd as it looked when we saw it first?
LET ME HAVE MY BAD MOOD OKAY

rofl I dunno what else to say. it's an accurate observation that I guess I could expound on but it'd probably lead to me johnning so nyeh. XD


oh armada's falco is pretty good. I like it when he does funny peach things with it like FH Bair OOS LOL.

It's still a little janky but I think part of my supposed "jank" statements have to do with Europe looking different stylistically from USA. Either way it looks more solid than it did initially.
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
Only dumb players have a Falco. All the good players have a Kirby. They're just too good to place well at tournaments.
 

AvengerAngel

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
449
Location
Italy
It's still a little janky but I think part of my supposed "jank" statements have to do with Europe looking different stylistically from USA. Either way it looks more solid than it did initially.
Do you think you could elaborate and discuss this? I know you don't have *much* experience playing europeans, but playing most of the best players should be enough anyway. I always felt like european's style is more patient/safe and spacing-oriented than USA's style, which is more technical, aggressive and combo-oriented. I'm talking about Falcos in particular, of course, but I feel like it applies to almost every other character. I dunno, watching videos of Faab/Aldwyn/Baxon and videos of Chops/Shiz/Mango gave me this impression x)
Your Falco is very different from the other ones tho, so how do you feel about that? Do you think your playstyle is somehow similar to the european/japanese one?
I hope it all made sense lol. I didn't feel like writing a huge wall of text because I didn't even get the chance to play american players (except for Relax and Aesis) so I base my thoughts only on the videos I watched D:
 

AvengerAngel

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
449
Location
Italy
Well, at least Utilt is hard to use or space with because of his small hitbox and Falco has hardly any move that combos into it
























:troll:
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
now with 20% more of the cocky douche that everyone loves to hate
It pisses me off when people are like WHY DON'T FALCO PLAYERS DO X, when I've been doing it for a long time.

If that's being a cocky douche, then I'm ok with this.

Seriously, if it involves offensive, or recovery options, I've probably already experimented with it, or already do it on the regular. I used to have a LOT of free time. <_<
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
get good enough that people care about watching your vids, then you can get angry when people fail to mention you

not sure how you expect anyone to just know you do something if you aren't a widely recognized/watched player.
 

Thanos828

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Messages
290
Location
Rochester NY
get good enough that people care about watching your vids, then you can get angry when people fail to mention you

not sure how you expect anyone to just know you do something if you aren't a widely recognized/watched player.
this

I mean you can add your approval as to the fact that you use it and it works, but you can't expect everyone to swoon over everything you do if you aren't a top player
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
get good enough that people care about watching your vids, then you can get angry when people fail to mention you

not sure how you expect anyone to just know you do something if you aren't a widely recognized/watched player.
I post my videos here so often, and I've been playing competitively since 05, so it doesn't make much sense that people DON'T know about my Falco.
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
I like to just tank their lasers and punish them for attempting to approach you on the same level. don't jump because you're just doing all the work for falco.
 

xianglongfa

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
79
Critique on Armada friendlies:

I read somewhere that Armada's favorite matchup is against Marth. No wonder. His DI against Marth is nearly impeccable. Still I think there are some more guaranteed combo links and perhaps stronger mixup options that you're underutilizing that could make the matchup a little bit harder for Armada than it is now.

Uthrow more at low-mid percents. At one point Armada was so conditioned into DIing down and away against your f-throws b/c you were hellbent on fthrow tech-chasing for some reason every time you got a grab.

Learn to space fair better for longer combos. Sometimes you can start a link into full hop fair even if peach is low in the air from early-percent dash attacks, utilts, SH FF fairs, etc. One unique way that marth can combo characters like peach is to combo link from tippering with the lower part of marth's FH fair then FFing into the 2nd hit of marth's fair.

Dash Attack more from nairs and f-throws when appropriate. Learn the percents when Armada is vulnerable to this mixup. And make sure that at these same percents where u-throw is a viable mixup to Armada's down and away DI in anticipation of f-throw that you space that FH fair optimally not only so you can get a longer combo, but also so you don't weak hit and leave yourself vulnerable to Armada's trades and get bodied from being in the air. F-throw dash attack works only if Armada is wary of the possibility of you uthrowing. Otherwise he's going to DI down and away your dash attacks all the time, which kept happening whenever you tried it on FD. The only time it worked really well out of the matches I watched is when Armada DI'd off the stage. Every other time you had to tech chase.

Dash attack less when Armada's stationary and at lower percents. There are a few reactions that you condition Armada into doing when you DD when he's stationary. Among the most prominent are dash attack, spot dodge, d-smash, and shield, and roll. I can bet you 20 bucks that when Armada's being smart that he will be holding down while he's waiting to react. Even well-spaced dash attack from marth can be CC'd to a certain percentage. Make sure you know this percentage and instead of doing dash attack, use a dash canceled dtilt for a safe approach as a mixup to JC grab and an alternate to dash attack as much as possible. I see that you did get Armada popped in the air sometimes, and sometimes Armada CC d-smashed you for it at really low percents. Again I would look into the CC percents for this, but it seems like when CC doesn't force armada to fall yet your best option is going to be dtilt when Armada is CCing. Hell you might be able to weak dtilt to strong dtilt if you slightly mispace.

CC more when you're not in danger of getting d-smashed. This seems like obvious advice, but it's not so obvious to a lot of people when they are fighting peach and are so ingrained in the mindset of not holding down. CCing peach's dash attack is amazing and you should be looking for Armada doing this when you're DDing so much. Something that you can try to stop your dash with more is WD in place when you can't cancel your initial dash animation and you're obviously not comfortable with trying to pivot turnaround dtilt. Take those 10 frames in stride and know that when you're doing that, you're going to be holding down to CC if Armada's trying to catch your lag from WD in place, and get that CC grab please.

FF AC ALL NAIRS PERFECTLY This point cannot be overemphasized if you're using nair as an approach against peach, b/c if you don't do this, it makes it 10x easier for peach to dash attack you out of nair. EVEN if your horizontal spacing is gdlk. I know your nairs are already quite solid now. The next step is to practice them til they're as gdlk as your platform shine-waveland control with falco, and then I'll stop complaining :) .

Learn when you can get a reliable spaced SH FF uair both for combos and for pressuring Armada as he's floating down. IT ***** Seriously FH uair leaves you so committed and screwed if you weak hit. Just follow him until spaced SH FF uair will suffice to pressure him and use that instead. Seriously, it's safe if you space it and FF and it combos better. Please use this.

Don't shield so much with your back facing Peach Armada will do a low FC bair/nair/whatever and **** you with d-smash. Please WD away more even if Armada will start dash attacking you as a read to catch you. You shield too often in this scenario and it's getting you punished more than it should.

Try FF AC nair before and through Armada's shield as a mixup out of dash dance I think you may have tried this earlier on but because of a few horizontally mispaced ones, and a few that weren't low enough you stopped b/c Armada kept trading with you. Well guess what happened later on? Armada would prematurely d-smash or side step then d-smash your grabs when a perfectly spaced nair would punish either of those things.

Don't be afraid of approaching with SH fairs when armada is floating in range of those but is outside of the range to FC Fair you Armada is literally waiting for the right moment when you're doing those feinting SH's in place or slightly forward to FC fair you in the face. His Fair has startup so to avoid this guessing situation, just dash slightly forward and start your fair ASAP from jump. I'll just provide a link for clarification on just one example I happen to be see from the clip I'm watching currently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=O354mCoqdyg#t=1359s



I'll try analyzing the few matches i've watched so far for you. This is a work in progress, and I have no idea when I'll be able to come back to this.
1. Don't try to mixup f-smash like here when you can turn around utilt and then mess her up for way more damage(peach is not a space animal...she doesn't die or get edgeguarded from bad DI from the other side of the stage at 46%): http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AedcoZtrZwg&feature=player_detailpage#t=62s
2. Don't try to dtilt peach after she sidesteps your grab. Marth's grab range despite being gdlk=/=dtilt range. Peach's d-smash range>Marth's grab range+Armada's gdlk reaction time+PP crouching=Armada profit. Tru story. http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AedcoZtrZwg&feature=player_detailpage#t=66s
3. You should've spaced a fair here. You could've definitely gotten either fair-dair or at least double fair into a 3rd fair. http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AedcoZtrZwg&feature=player_detailpage#t=69s

...

General Comments

I love your patient pummels, smart recovery, and safe movement against Armada. Being less impulsive against Armada when instinct tells you you should be aggressive makes you one of the best players against Armada with any character. Still I feel like there are situations where you could go for better punishment options and situations where your patience gets overly predictable. Watch some M2K videos to learn some stronger combo strings on peach. I realize that Armada's DIing so well compared to other peaches and even compared to himself from a few tournaments ago against M2K (example his amazing DI from getting combo'd from fair and then his SDI up sometimes of the initial hit of an otherwise comboing FH fair), but with a little bit more refinement, I see you dominating this matchup with all those smarts. Take comments from this scrub with a grain of salt, and keep up the hard work PP!

Regards,

Your Biggest Marth Fan
 

Levingy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 21, 2011
Messages
78
@xianglongfa: Do you mean that in certain percents marth's u-throw against peach who DI:s down and away is a guaranteed combo setup? That marth can continue that with some aerial, and peach can't do anything about it if she has di:d that way?
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
Goodness. I thought you meant as Falco for a moment. I nearly had a heart attack....

Can't say I'd be surprised. Everything on this character is a combo that combos into other combos....
 

AvengerAngel

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
449
Location
Italy
bthrow ***** as a mix-up against Falco and Fox if you can read/condition your opponent well x)
It's a very good gimp/edge guard set up and it can lead to silly follow-ups on stage like dash attack/fsmash/Dair/Nair, or another grab as well. If your opponent is trying to get out of it as quickly as possible you can punish his instinctive reactions as well, just wait for him to commit to something stupid and punish accordingly (I remember Forward doing it to Shiz, then waiting for Shiz to roll towards him and punishing him, in their very very old set)
Also it's very good in some situations against floaties or pseudo-floaties like Puff, Peach and Marf. If they don't expect it and don't DI well you can usually connect a Dair or another aerial x)

tl;dr Bthrow ***** and it should be used a bit more often imho :x
 

TheZhuKeeper

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
2,908
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Zhulu:
ugh

that kinda looks like me actually

ugh


Canadian space animals have been doing that for years.

unknown522 might have invented it even >_>
I definitely stole it from the Canadians =)

I tried my best to reinvent it but I didn't get to do it in a high exposure match like I wanted =( I am really glad you guys caught on though, I was actually pretty proud of implementing this setup and making it a pretty big part of my game, just from one clip that I saw (raynex vs little england).





So I'm probably gonna be out for a while, especially after two weekend tournaments back to back (apex / wgf). Overall I'm kinda glad to know that I can still compete, but I think I won't be able to peak again due to various factors (school, motivation etc.). I think this is probably the best balance of smash I can handle for now. For those of you who were at apex, you probably saw me with daisy, and I can tell you that weekend was full of trials and stuffs LOL. Learned a lot overall smash and life, so in conclusion, super glad I'm still doing this, but definitely can't do it all the time.

Look out for wesballz guys. He 2-0ed and 3-1ed me at wgf. I wasn't playing my best, but I think that was due to the intimidation of a great player.

zZAAHhhuUUuoooooooooIUIJjjjjjjjjjjjUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuu♣UUUUUU098UUUUUUUUUUUUm2kUUUUUUUUUUUUUUOOiiiiiiiiiiiiZIMZIMZIM
 

Beat!

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
3,214
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
It's more DI-related. If they keep DIing inwards, you can go on for a pretty long while.

Very few players will do this for more than 1 or 2 throws, though.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Critique on Armada friendlies:

I read somewhere that Armada's favorite matchup is against Marth. No wonder. His DI against Marth is nearly impeccable. Still I think there are some more guaranteed combo links and perhaps stronger mixup options that you're underutilizing that could make the matchup a little bit harder for Armada than it is now.

Uthrow more at low-mid percents. At one point Armada was so conditioned into DIing down and away against your f-throws b/c you were hellbent on fthrow tech-chasing for some reason every time you got a grab.

Learn to space fair better for longer combos. Sometimes you can start a link into full hop fair even if peach is low in the air from early-percent dash attacks, utilts, SH FF fairs, etc. One unique way that marth can combo characters like peach is to combo link from tippering with the lower part of marth's FH fair then FFing into the 2nd hit of marth's fair.

Dash Attack more from nairs and f-throws when appropriate. Learn the percents when Armada is vulnerable to this mixup. And make sure that at these same percents where u-throw is a viable mixup to Armada's down and away DI in anticipation of f-throw that you space that FH fair optimally not only so you can get a longer combo, but also so you don't weak hit and leave yourself vulnerable to Armada's trades and get bodied from being in the air. F-throw dash attack works only if Armada is wary of the possibility of you uthrowing. Otherwise he's going to DI down and away your dash attacks all the time, which kept happening whenever you tried it on FD. The only time it worked really well out of the matches I watched is when Armada DI'd off the stage. Every other time you had to tech chase.

Dash attack less when Armada's stationary and at lower percents. There are a few reactions that you condition Armada into doing when you DD when he's stationary. Among the most prominent are dash attack, spot dodge, d-smash, and shield, and roll. I can bet you 20 bucks that when Armada's being smart that he will be holding down while he's waiting to react. Even well-spaced dash attack from marth can be CC'd to a certain percentage. Make sure you know this percentage and instead of doing dash attack, use a dash canceled dtilt for a safe approach as a mixup to JC grab and an alternate to dash attack as much as possible. I see that you did get Armada popped in the air sometimes, and sometimes Armada CC d-smashed you for it at really low percents. Again I would look into the CC percents for this, but it seems like when CC doesn't force armada to fall yet your best option is going to be dtilt when Armada is CCing. Hell you might be able to weak dtilt to strong dtilt if you slightly mispace.

CC more when you're not in danger of getting d-smashed. This seems like obvious advice, but it's not so obvious to a lot of people when they are fighting peach and are so ingrained in the mindset of not holding down. CCing peach's dash attack is amazing and you should be looking for Armada doing this when you're DDing so much. Something that you can try to stop your dash with more is WD in place when you can't cancel your initial dash animation and you're obviously not comfortable with trying to pivot turnaround dtilt. Take those 10 frames in stride and know that when you're doing that, you're going to be holding down to CC if Armada's trying to catch your lag from WD in place, and get that CC grab please.

FF AC ALL NAIRS PERFECTLY This point cannot be overemphasized if you're using nair as an approach against peach, b/c if you don't do this, it makes it 10x easier for peach to dash attack you out of nair. EVEN if your horizontal spacing is gdlk. I know your nairs are already quite solid now. The next step is to practice them til they're as gdlk as your platform shine-waveland control with falco, and then I'll stop complaining :) .

Learn when you can get a reliable spaced SH FF uair both for combos and for pressuring Armada as he's floating down. IT ***** Seriously FH uair leaves you so committed and screwed if you weak hit. Just follow him until spaced SH FF uair will suffice to pressure him and use that instead. Seriously, it's safe if you space it and FF and it combos better. Please use this.

Don't shield so much with your back facing Peach Armada will do a low FC bair/nair/whatever and **** you with d-smash. Please WD away more even if Armada will start dash attacking you as a read to catch you. You shield too often in this scenario and it's getting you punished more than it should.

Try FF AC nair before and through Armada's shield as a mixup out of dash dance I think you may have tried this earlier on but because of a few horizontally mispaced ones, and a few that weren't low enough you stopped b/c Armada kept trading with you. Well guess what happened later on? Armada would prematurely d-smash or side step then d-smash your grabs when a perfectly spaced nair would punish either of those things.

Don't be afraid of approaching with SH fairs when armada is floating in range of those but is outside of the range to FC Fair you Armada is literally waiting for the right moment when you're doing those feinting SH's in place or slightly forward to FC fair you in the face. His Fair has startup so to avoid this guessing situation, just dash slightly forward and start your fair ASAP from jump. I'll just provide a link for clarification on just one example I happen to be see from the clip I'm watching currently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=O354mCoqdyg#t=1359s



I'll try analyzing the few matches i've watched so far for you. This is a work in progress, and I have no idea when I'll be able to come back to this.
1. Don't try to mixup f-smash like here when you can turn around utilt and then mess her up for way more damage(peach is not a space animal...she doesn't die or get edgeguarded from bad DI from the other side of the stage at 46%): http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AedcoZtrZwg&feature=player_detailpage#t=62s
2. Don't try to dtilt peach after she sidesteps your grab. Marth's grab range despite being gdlk=/=dtilt range. Peach's d-smash range>Marth's grab range+Armada's gdlk reaction time+PP crouching=Armada profit. Tru story. http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AedcoZtrZwg&feature=player_detailpage#t=66s
3. You should've spaced a fair here. You could've definitely gotten either fair-dair or at least double fair into a 3rd fair. http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AedcoZtrZwg&feature=player_detailpage#t=69s

...

General Comments

I love your patient pummels, smart recovery, and safe movement against Armada. Being less impulsive against Armada when instinct tells you you should be aggressive makes you one of the best players against Armada with any character. Still I feel like there are situations where you could go for better punishment options and situations where your patience gets overly predictable. Watch some M2K videos to learn some stronger combo strings on peach. I realize that Armada's DIing so well compared to other peaches and even compared to himself from a few tournaments ago against M2K (example his amazing DI from getting combo'd from fair and then his SDI up sometimes of the initial hit of an otherwise comboing FH fair), but with a little bit more refinement, I see you dominating this matchup with all those smarts. Take comments from this scrub with a grain of salt, and keep up the hard work PP!

Regards,

Your Biggest Marth Fan
Wow thanks for typing all that out dude....

I'll hit you up on aim for specifics, but why upthrow at low percents? Can I REALLY combo off of that?

And if I get the tech chase from Fthrow pretty much every time then that's free damage up to gay CC thresholds so he can't just spam that on me lol.

I don't really like Nair'ing out of a DD but it is good once in a while so I guess I'll do that more.

I dunno how to "perfectly" SH FF AC Nairs or whatever the heck you said LOL. I'd practice it if I did know exactly how to do it though.

I don't like SHFF Uair for juggling for some reason, but I guess I'll use it some.....

I'd rather just hit that guy up a little then push him offstage lol. Eh whatever free hits are free hits.

Thanks for all the advice dude. =)

bthrow ***** as a mix-up against Falco and Fox if you can read/condition your opponent well x)
It's a very good gimp/edge guard set up and it can lead to silly follow-ups on stage like dash attack/fsmash/Dair/Nair, or another grab as well. If your opponent is trying to get out of it as quickly as possible you can punish his instinctive reactions as well, just wait for him to commit to something stupid and punish accordingly (I remember Forward doing it to Shiz, then waiting for Shiz to roll towards him and punishing him, in their very very old set)
Also it's very good in some situations against floaties or pseudo-floaties like Puff, Peach and Marf. If they don't expect it and don't DI well you can usually connect a Dair or another aerial x)

tl;dr Bthrow ***** and it should be used a bit more often imho :x
I've been using more Bthrow lately, and I guess I'll start really abusing the move to see what all I can really get off of it. I never liked Bthrow waiting but I keep getting hit whenever I try to follow it up on a spacie onstage so I guess I'll try that some and see how it goes lol.
 

AvengerAngel

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
449
Location
Italy
I kept getting hit when I tried to Fthrow "chaingrab" FFers like Chops does lol. That's why I started mixing up all the throws and sometimes, if I see my opponents react quickly to my throws, I just wait for them to do something dumb and punish xP
After all it works wonders as a mix-up, but it's not a solid combo set-up of course x)

[Edit: Zhu, your Falco is still awesome <33
Your set with Shiz was very nice]
 

xianglongfa

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
79
@PP

I'm not telling you to stop fthrow tech chasing Armada through really low percents. You should keep doing that since uthrow doesn't reliably combo at those percents. But starting at around maybe 30% or so, it will if he DI's away and down.

Tell twitch to hold down and away(to different degrees) as if to DI away from f-throw followups in training mode, then see what the percentage range is to followup with uair/fair after uthrow. IIRC if the thrown is mainly DI'd downwards(which doesn't do almost anything to the trajectory when you uthrow), then tippered uair is a great followup that chains into all sorts of things. Just make sure you don't do it when peach is at a low percentage to trade with your uair.(less than around 30% or so) If the DI is mostly away then at those lower percents like around 30% or so, fair works as a followup(though I think if you soft fair peach may be able to nair trade with your 2nd hit).

The percent ranges for reliable uthrow and fthrow followups on peach seem pretty precise/narrow, so I would ask Jason about it or figure it out in training mode with Twitch.

To get FF AC Nairs really ****, start the nair as soon as you can off of your jump, and you can actually FF as early as possible and still have the nair AC, which means that both hits are pretty close to the ground. I read through the frame data once, but I'm too busy atm to find it all again.
 
Top Bottom