PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Beat!]

@genkaku
Alright, cool.

Awesome words to describe how fail genkaku is.

Couldn't help but laugh at this though

 

[ruhtraeel]

I want PP to ask Mango how to play as Falco against someone like Javi and win, because my confidence as a Falco player is shaky after watching that.

 

[Thanos828]

Coincidentally, my confidence as a Fox main shot through the roof.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I've been telling you guys that match-up is even or slightly fox, but nobody believes me. Not saying this is proof, but it should make the people who say "omg fox never beats falco in tourney derpderp" stfu for a while

 

[noobird]

In PP's match with javi, he did better second game by a lot. In mango's exhibition with javi, he also did better second game (2 stock rather than 1 stock i think). As druggedfox said a few pages back, most likely it would've been easier to play javi after a few games. But honestly that fox was ridiculous.

 

[crush]

javi got 2 stocked by linguini first game then next game he 3 stocked him

 

[ruhtraeel]

I've been telling you guys that match-up is even or slightly fox, but nobody believes me. Not saying this is proof, but it should make the people who say "omg fox never beats falco in tourney derpderp" stfu for a while

I've known this for a while now, which is why I go Fox against Falco right now anyways.

Now I might go Fox vs Fox and Falco, or just become a Fox main in general.

In general I think it's cause the things Falco needs to do to make the matchup even is harder than the things Fox needs to do. Like Falco needs really amazing spacing and no dropped combos to win, but like something as simple as FH nair into shine already counters so much of what Falco does.

But the best player in my city says Fox doesn't win tournaments.

 

[Druggedfox]

Why would PP have to ask mango? -.-

Uh, you shouldn't base your confidence in a character on results at one tournament. Should the fox players have lost motivation for years as PP ***** all the fox players? Come on now, don't be silly. Shiz went even with javi, and he couldn't even waveshine consistently >_>

 

[ruhtraeel]

Why would PP have to ask mango? -.-

Uh, you shouldn't base your confidence in a character on results at one tournament. Should the fox players have lost motivation for years as PP ***** all the fox players? Come on now, don't be silly. Shiz went even with javi, and he couldn't even waveshine consistently >_>

I'm not basing my confidence on results at all. If I did, I would be playing Peach and Puff by now. I'm basing it on HOW Javi beat PP. And I want Mango's advice because I believe seeing as how Mango beat Javi, the way he and Shiz plays (a faster style) ， is a better way of dealing with someone like Javi.

 

[boomrested]

As much as I hate how it needs to be done, playing gayer against a borderline gay character + gay playstyle is totally right. It may be fun for Puff players to play other people, so it's only fair for others to have fun back.

I'm sure people would still join a tournament even if Puff was banned.

Just because I can't take one more suggestion of "Lulz let's ban puff and melee will be exciting again..." :
-Unless I'm wrong, there were a grand total of 2 Puffs in the top 64. And one placed second, the other placed 17th.
-Jigglypuff has not won a national tournament since Apex 2010. Why ban a character that's gone 2 years without a national victory?
-Sure, hungrybox camps. But Armada chose to not learn the matchup with his peach, and resorted to repeatedly timing out Hungrybox, the best Jigglypuff player in the world, with a young link. Goes to show that if everyone can't deal with a grand total of 2 puffs in the entire 64 man bracket, they should all pull out pocket young links and spam **** for 8 minutes on dreamland.
-I do agree with you that puff has a relatively "gay" playstyle and that other characters have the right to camp right back. That's the player's choice. If they want to take what might be a 4 minute match against a campy puff and turn it into an 8 minute campfest, that's something puff can't control.

This isn't anything personal, I just don't think it's fair that people don't see that it was because of Armada that the whole Grand Finals problem occurred. But a puff ban would solve a tiny, minuscule problem that exists because Armada couldn't be bothered to learn the matchup with Peach.

 

[Bones0]

There was no Melee day 2, and no warm-ups day 3. It's also bull**** that players AT LEAST in the top 16 aren't playing bo5 sets considering Europe does bo5 for the entire bracket (maybe tournament?). That extra game may have given PP time to adapt to Javi and come back. All of the tournament results are pretty much irrelevant (outside of Javi proving that he is, at the very least, a top contender). I can understand why you would think Apex would have just as much weight as other nationals if you were just watching the stream, but everyone there seemed to realize pretty quickly that the results can't even be compared due to how the tournament was run. It's a shame because I think Alex Strife and the rest of the Apex crew did a spectacular job with a lot of things that never happen at Smash tourneys, but they also fumbled a great deal of the basic ingredients that tournaments have actually been pretty good at.

 

[JPOBS]

I can understand why you would think Apex would have just as much weight as other nationals if you were just watching the stream, but everyone there seemed to realize pretty quickly that the results can't even be compared due to how the tournament was run.

Bones, I usually like your posts and mostly agree with them, but I have to say, this is load of crap you're talking.

How are these results any less "legit" or uncomparable to other nationals? Idgaf about any johns about how the tourny was ran because lets take a few things into consideration:

1. All the top players still placed really well. Armada, hbox and mango were top 3 just like EVERY tournament.
2. The second echelon of players like Kirbykaze, Hax, Lovage and Shroomed placed right about where they have proved themselves capable in past tournaments.
3. The "middle of the pack" players like silent wolf, Kage and etc all placed right around where they always place.

How are these results any more suspect than any other tournament? The fact is that regardless of how the tournament was run, everyone performed almost EXACTLY like they have performed in the past.

Upsets happen bro, that's life. Axe got bodied. Europe got exposed. M2k lost to Wobbles (not the first time he's lost to ics). PP got 5th. And Javi is a king.

I can't believe you're trying to say apex doesn't hold the same "weight" as other majors, when the results or more or less identical to every other major ever.

 

[oliman]

my completely mango fanboy post: i think mango wasn't playing as well this tournament. I completely accept the loss to armada in genesis 2 but here he wasn't playing on point. he made a ton of mistakes and generally wasn't as vicious as i have seen him be. I want a genesis 3 set of mango armada to really say that the era of mango is over

also, people are seriously doubting PP, which is unacceptable. I also predict PP will rise up in later nationals

 

[Thanos828]

my completely mango fanboy post: i think mango wasn't playing as well this tournament. I completely accept the loss to armada in genesis 2 but here he wasn't playing on point. he made a ton of mistakes and generally wasn't as vicious as i have seen him be. I want a genesis 3 set of mango armada to really say that the era of mango is over

also, people are seriously doubting PP, which is unacceptable. I also predict PP will rise up in later nationals

Here we go

(Also I do agree that Mango wasn't playing his best. I'm not going to contest that Armada would have won because I still think he would have, but I don't think that Mango at his best would have gotten 3-0'd, and I don't think he would have lost to Hbox either. IIRC even Armada was surprised at the 3-0, but he expected to win.)

 

[SSBMLahti]

my completely mango fanboy post: i think mango wasn't playing as well this tournament. I completely accept the loss to armada in genesis 2 but here he wasn't playing on point. he made a ton of mistakes and generally wasn't as vicious as i have seen him be. I want a genesis 3 set of mango armada to really say that the era of mango is over

also, people are seriously doubting PP, which is unacceptable. I also predict PP will rise up in later nationals

I'm a Mango fanboy myself, but get over it dude. He lost to Armada at Genesis 2, crews at APEX 2012, and during tournament at APEX 2012. Mango was playing good...he got top 3. He was way too aggressive, etc etc. not everybody plays their best at every tournament, so saying Mango wasn't playing well is just...yeah.

tl;dr Armada is the best player in the world, get over it.

 

[Merkuri]

my completely mango fanboy post: i think mango wasn't playing as well this tournament. I completely accept the loss to armada in genesis 2 but here he wasn't playing on point. he made a ton of mistakes and generally wasn't as vicious as i have seen him be. I want a genesis 3 set of mango armada to really say that the era of mango is over

also, people are seriously doubting PP, which is unacceptable. I also predict PP will rise up in later nationals

Bull****. You absolutely do not accept Mango's lost at genesis2 because Mango choose to play super aggressive to please the crowd instead of doing what he needed to do to secure the win. Mango would have won had he slowed it down a little, right?

When Armada beats Mango at genesis3 or wherever else they meet, you'll have another john safe and ready for Mango. Shut up.

 

[JPOBS]

Or maybe armada and hbox just got much better?

I hate how its always "mango was playing so bad i know if he ate a sensu bean he'd 4 stock everyone"
its never "wow hbox played spectactular and armada is amazng"

Mango doesn't practice and doesn't care. Armada and Hbox still want to be the best. Mango isn't some untouchable god anymore. Other players are as good/better than him now. Get. Over. It.

America: land of the free.

 

[Bonsai]

-Sure, hungrybox camps. But Armada chose to not learn the matchup with his peach, and resorted to repeatedly timing out Hungrybox, the best Jigglypuff player in the world, with a young link. Goes to show that if everyone can't deal with a grand total of 2 puffs in the entire 64 man bracket, they should all pull out pocket young links and spam **** for 8 minutes on dreamland.
-I do agree with you that puff has a relatively "gay" playstyle and that other characters have the right to camp right back. That's the player's choice. If they want to take what might be a 4 minute match against a campy puff and turn it into an 8 minute campfest, that's something puff can't control.

How about we just shoot a bullet through Melee right away.
Puff ain't that gay, campy puffs should just gtfo. Money hungry b*tchez.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Agreed. Puff isn't that gay. If you're mad that you lose, gay Puff back. If you don't want to gay Puff back, too bad. If you don't want to lose, get better.

I dislike the hate that Hungrybox gets, yet Armada camps mad hard with Young Link and gets barely any hate. I'm not sayin' Armada deserves to be hated, just don't hate Hungrybox when Armada does the same thing lol.

 

[Bonsai]

It is sad that puff has the possibility to camp (with bairs for example). Fine if you utilize it, I just don't have any respect for you as a player then.
And obviously you're just playing for the money or the feeling of 'YES, I WON', instead of defeating someone with honor.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Yeah that's my point. If Puffs want to play super gayly, they shouldn't complain if people find an even more gay method of beating them.

But it's detrimental to the fun of the game itself. The game is supposed to be fun, and when I said the line about banning Puff (or at least Puffs with Hbox playstyle), I was talking about how it would make the game more fun in general, because that's what a game is supposed to do. And yeah there are very few Puffs in the top 20, which is why if she was banned, nobody would care, because hardly anyone plays her and she's detrimental to the game's fun, when played a certain style.

BTW I'm not telling anyone to ban Puff, I'm just saying that Puff even though is a legit contender for skill, doesn't make the game very fun in general when played like Hbox.


So what I mean is like if you want to have a tournament to clearly define the rankings of the players in terms of skill, then by all means, play Puff if you want.

But if you want to keep the game fun, which is the entire point of a game in the first place, play someone else.

 

[crush]

i never edgehog, because i want to defeat people with honor

also i believe the correct term is 'homosex'

 

[boomrested]

I understand the points that you guys make. I make an effort to be as un-gay with puff as possible, but a character as slow as her doesn't have a whole lot of options. If you abuse that fact while playing a Puff that's trying to play legit like myself, by using Armada's tactics, you're no better than a campy puff who spams backairs.

 

[oliman]

Bull****. You absolutely do not accept Mango's lost at genesis2 because Mango choose to play super aggressive to please the crowd instead of doing what he needed to do to secure the win. Mango would have won had he slowed it down a little, right?

When Armada beats Mango at genesis3 or wherever else they meet, you'll have another john safe and ready for Mango. Shut up.

nah i accept the loss completely. i just think that the community has a really short memory span. didnt know mango lost in crews, though. all im saying is that mango isnt completely out, for me im not 100% sure if armada is #1 (im probably gonna get a lot of crap for saying this).

 

[ruhtraeel]

I understand the points that you guys make. I make an effort to be as un-gay with puff as possible, but a character as slow as her doesn't have a whole lot of options. If you abuse that fact while playing a Puff that's trying to play legit like myself, by using Armada's tactics, you're no better than a campy puff who spams backairs.

If you don't play like Hbox, then there's no reason to play like Armada's YL cause you don't need to in order to win. But if someone plays like Hbox, then nobody should complain about how Armada hard counters it.

But in general, Puff isn't as fun to play against. I mean it's the player's choice and right to play Puff as a character, and that alone makes a lot of people angry. But it's also the player's choice and right to find a hard counter to Puff, no matter what it is, even if it makes Puff players angry.

 

[FoxLisk]

It is sad that puff has the possibility to camp (with bairs for example). Fine if you utilize it, I just don't have any respect for you as a player then.
And obviously you're just playing for the money or the feeling of 'YES, I WON', instead of defeating someone with honor.

honor is a crutch used by scrubs to justify losing.

also this isn't just a game. this is a sport. people are playing to win, as they should be. that means that, if hbox goes puff, armada will go YL, as he should. if you don't enjoy watching it, that's not their fault.

If you want to play a game just for fun, get the **** off of smashboards, for god's sake. If you want to play melee competitively, you have to admit that it's a sport and sometimes you have to play against jigglypuff because someone else wants to play as her.

@ruhtraeel this is off the topic of the rest of my post but i havent seen a single puff player angry about armada going YL. The puff boards are pretty excited about Hbox's performance at the moment.

 

[Divinokage]

I'm a Mango fanboy myself, but get over it dude. He lost to Armada at Genesis 2, crews at APEX 2012, and during tournament at APEX 2012. Mango was playing good...he got top 3. He was way too aggressive, etc etc. not everybody plays their best at every tournament, so saying Mango wasn't playing well is just...yeah.

tl;dr Armada is the best player in the world, get over it.

I think there was something lacking in his play actually, if Mango trained harder he would've been more dangerous, even in doubles when I played him he wasn't as scary. (Though he busted out a limit break in game 5 and steamrolled me and Chu, but ya...) He could've done better overall for sure.. as to every player, =)

I'm just saying, it's not really a john.

And Armada trains every single day for like 4-5 hours and it shows definitely.

The Mango 'aggressive' style thing is not really valid thing to say either because it's his own style and going against that may result in him doing worst. Perhaps it's not optimal vs Peach but it works for him against anyone.. however Armada was definitely more on point in general, training constantly helps your consistency, he got outplayed plain and simple.

 

[SSBMLahti]

I think there was something lacking in his play actually, if Mango trained harder he would've been more dangerous, even in doubles when I played him he wasn't as scary. (Though he busted out a limit break in game 5 and steamrolled me and Chu, but ya...) He could've done better overall for sure.. as to every player, =)

I'm just saying, it's not really a john.

And Armada trains every single day for like 4-5 hours and it shows definitely.

Hmm ok, maybe the fact that he hadn't been home in a while hindered his gameplay? Ah well, it is what it is.

 

[Divinokage]

I've read on FB it's Milktea's fault for not letting Mango play for 2 months, lmao. =P

 

[P-99]

I've read on FB it's Milktea's fault for not letting Mango play for 2 months, lmao. =P

I swear if this is true...

 

[ShroudedOne]

Maybe Milktea wasn't putting out, and that's why Mango lost.

 

[Divinokage]

^ I'm surprised you didn't enter. Next time, you should.. Especially next time because then I'm sure you can do good.

 

[ShroudedOne]

? Really? I mean, I didn't enter because of money johns, but my play was so speckled throughout the weekend. What makes you say that?

 

[Divinokage]

Everyone's play is like that but at different levels, you just gotta fix your weaknesses one at a time to increase your max level.. or something along those lines lol. Anyways, I think that because I played you and I thought you were good, that's all. =)

 

[JPOBS]

lol why would she not allow him to play?

 

[Divinokage]

Blame LoL.

 

[CK Momentum]

I noticed back at rom4 that pp and mango don't really use the c stick for aerials why would anyone want to do this?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Uh...thanks, Kage, but you three stocked me in all of our matches. But I'll keep that in mind.

I didn't get to watch PP vs Javi at the tournament. Just finished watching it. Javi is very, very good, and very smart and adaptive, but I think it was just that he was soo very fast and technical that got to PP. I think PP has his number next time. But Javi is definitely top 5 world Foxes (I want to say second best only to Mango, but I can't...)

 

[Wake]

You should've entered SillyOne.

 

[FrootLoop]

there's not really aerial stuff that needs to be so insanely precise/quick that it simply can only be done one way, so people just pick a way and practice it. It doesn't really matter how you shield/jump/Lcancel/aerial, as long as you're consistent.