PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

Sooooooo hyped for Apex. I've never been to San Diego. It's building up in me even more from this epic hype vid: Advancing the Reworked Invitation.

 

[PolishSmash]

Sooooooo hyped for Apex. I've never been to San Diego. It's building up in me even more from this epic hype vid: Advancing the Reworked Invitation.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya no need to worry, I still love melee, lmao. It's not like I'm just going to stop playing all together, when I train there will be times when I won't be able to train so perhaps I'll use that time to play it with my friends and stuff. Anyways, it's not that hard to maintain Ganon, his tech skill is a joke to maintain compared to Fox, lmao. But my money is going towards the fighting gym, so traveling seems unlikely after Apex. That's all I'm saying, I'm just following a road which I think I should be doing.

Redd, we will MM, I definitely want lots of MM for some final battles. =P

 

[Battlecow]

ok well yeah he does more than that, but he just plays really punishy in general

but yeah he might be going to Apex 2012 so I want to see if he joins Melee

He's going to apex

he's not entering melee AFAIK

 

[PolishSmash]

Ya no need to worry, I still love melee, lmao. It's not like I'm just going to stop playing all together, when I train there will be times when I won't be able to train so perhaps I'll use that time to play it with my friends and stuff. Anyways, it's not that hard to maintain Ganon, his tech skill is a joke to maintain compared to Fox, lmao. But my money is going towards the fighting gym, so traveling seems unlikely after Apex. That's all I'm saying, I'm just following a road which I think I should be doing.

Redd, we will MM, I definitely want lots of MM for some final battles. =P

Yea dude just follow you dreams and don't let others stop you. If someone tells you it's never been done, then be the first one to do it :D

 

[Divinokage]

Of course, I don't compare myself to others because when you do it's just stupid and it will discourage you. Just do what you think should be done for you, and go for it with everything you've got. Simple as that... there is no easy way out or shortcuts to become a pro. The others can think what they want about me but that still doesn't change the fact I have certain dreams to accomplish. =p

 

[PolishSmash]

Of course, I don't compare myself to others because when you do it's just stupid and it will discourage you. Just do what you think should be done for you, and go for it with everything you've got. Simple as that... there is no easy way out or shortcuts to become a pro. The others can think what they want about me but that still doesn't change the fact I have certain dreams to accomplish. =p

Hell yea that's the mindset I'm talking about son lol :D See you at Apex btw

 

[PolishSmash]

Hey Kage do you ever get bored playing Ganon? And if you do who do you play?

 

[Divinokage]

Uhh ya, at this point after 5 years I do. I usually play other characters to further my understanding about them. I try to learn about what would this particular character look for against Ganon pretty much. I play Falcon, Falco, Marth sometimes when I don't play Ganon and rare occasions Fox but he's too fast for me lol.

 

[PolishSmash]

Uhh ya, at this point after 5 years I do. I usually play other characters to further my understanding about them. I try to learn about what would this particular character look for against Ganon pretty much. I play Falcon, Falco, Marth sometimes when I don't play Ganon and rare occasions Fox but he's too fast for me lol.

Oh lol yea Fox is pretty fast haha. I'm a newcomer and I'm just starting to practice SHFFLes right now as we speak and Fox is a lot harder than Marth lol. Does everyone at Apex Melee Singles know how to SHFFL at least? Or will there be people that I actually have a chance of beating? Like I know you don't know who entered but from like experience at tourneys, because this is going to be my first one

 

[Sinji]

Well at least i will be able to meet kage at apex.

Kage shaving off his hair was an indication that he would quit and get serious about his future.

Yea thats right kage, fox is to fast for you.

Has anyone used falcos laser as a jab reset? I think its a good tool if you send the opponent on the other side of the stage and they miss the tech.

 

[Divinokage]

Well at least i will be able to meet kage at apex.

Kage shaving off his hair was an indication that he would quit and get serious about his future.

Yea thats right kage, fox is to fast for you.

Has anyone used falcos laser as a jab reset? I think its a good tool if you send the opponent on the other side of the stage and they miss the tech.

Hehe, perhaps.. or not, I don't think you need to look that far. I just shaved my hair to save some money from haircuts and shampoo lol.

Oh lol yea Fox is pretty fast haha. I'm a newcomer and I'm just starting to practice SHFFLes right now as we speak and Fox is a lot harder than Marth lol. Does everyone at Apex Melee Singles know how to SHFFL at least? Or will there be people that I actually have a chance of beating? Like I know you don't know who entered but from like experience at tourneys, because this is going to be my first one

From my experience, the people know at least minimum all the basics.. maybe some less than others.. but ya it's going to be tough. =P

 

[PolishSmash]

Crap lol Hey at least I know I'll learn a lot

Messed up the quote lol

 

[Bl@ckChris]

everyone does sinji. even me. and i don't even play that character.

but it is very useful.

 

[Warhawk]

Has anyone used falcos laser as a jab reset? I think its a good tool if you send the opponent on the other side of the stage and they miss the tech.

Yea its good, especially at higher percents where it usually leads to charged forward smash but if I'm not mistaken they can DI the laser up and then they end up automatically on their feet instead of forced into getting up from the ground.

 

[PolishSmash]

Yea its good, especially at higher percents where it usually leads to charged forward smash but if I'm not mistaken they can DI the laser up and then they end up automatically on their feet instead of forced into getting up from the ground.

I thought that was what a jab reset did in the first place? Automatically get them on their feet so you can attack them again. The laser makes them slowly get up if they don't DI up?

 

[Sinji]

If they di up the hitstun will be thier but it wont be a jab reset. It would pull you up quickly. The jab reset is good around 0%-30% i think.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Ya no need to worry, I still love melee, lmao. It's not like I'm just going to stop playing all together, when I train there will be times when I won't be able to train so perhaps I'll use that time to play it with my friends and stuff. Anyways, it's not that hard to maintain Ganon, his tech skill is a joke to maintain compared to Fox, lmao. But my money is going towards the fighting gym, so traveling seems unlikely after Apex. That's all I'm saying, I'm just following a road which I think I should be doing.

Redd, we will MM, I definitely want lots of MM for some final battles. =P

^^This is what I wanted to hear.

Back to step 1 of Melee, before all that dedication and improvement happened:

Have Fun.




BTW Kage don't ever lose your accent, it will definitely help you in fighting

 

[JPOBS]

kage do you have any fighting experience at all in the martial arts?

You can't just wake up one morning in your mid 20s and decide to be a professional fighter lmao.

 

[Divinokage]

Maybe you can't, but I can. =) I told you already, all you need is a will and a way will open to you.

 

[CK Momentum]

Kage THE WARRIOR enters the octagon and just uses that purple stuff to defeat his enemy.

So if the enemy is fox and they are just oustide of my ftlit after an aerial range i ALWAYS laser but i think that is a scary range that sort of limits my mobility/options. Ideally at awkward spacings i wanna do something like DD/wd back/laser/run away to reset the spacing to something I prefer.

Is it sometimes worth forcing an attack when I don't really feel comfortable?
What other options do I have to get the reset in this position?

ALSO why is melee so hard?

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Sorry but if it isn't at Apex, then it's never going to happen again, I'm moving on.

yes finally

-dead-

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Froot loop is prety good

As long as he plays falco. He got ****ted on in the PR for playing all falcon and marth recently. Step it up frank!

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe you can't, but I can. =) I told you already, all you need is a will and a way will open to you.

that'd be a lot more useful for you if you could go back in time, spend 8 years training and come out at the age of 22 ready to go. Starting at your age, by the time you're in, you're already out too.

 

[Divinokage]

But I can't do that, I only have right now. And if it's not now then it's not going to happen. With the wisdom I have now, I can do anything and learn things much faster. I'm not doing this to prove this to you or anyone, I'm doing this for me and it will work out because that's something I REALLY want to do.. You, out of all people should know that I don't give a **** about statistics, it doesn't exist for me.. (Because that's comparing yourself to others again) only what my heart tells me to do. Perhaps, one day many more people would understand this concept/realization or maybe experience.. Like I said, everyone should follow what they want to do even if it seems hopeless at first, it takes a lot of courage to do and sacrifice.. but that's all you can do and that's what you should be doing... answer to your calling. Answer to your needs in this life, it's never too late. Is that really that hard to do or realize? I can't control the outcome of me doing this but that is something I know I'll love to do so it will be good enough as long as I keep doing it, I'll be happy, I'll feel great.

So ya.. how about that? =)

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Kage should be a professional motivator.

i mean he plays ganon and hasnt totally given up on himself

really inspirational

 

[Divinokage]

Kage should be a professional motivator.

i mean he plays ganon and hasnt totally given up on himself

really inspirational

What do you mean by hasn't totally given up on himself? You think I quit smash because I'm frustrated by something?

 

[unknown522]

It's true. Kage almost never gets upset/frustrated even when he loses.

Also, a friend of mine got into MMA about a year ago. The exercises that he learned from the gym, which he taught me are pretty tough, but really fun.

He used to be kinda chubby before getting into it, but now he's completely changed after a year.

 

[ruhtraeel]

kage do you have any fighting experience at all in the martial arts?

You can't just wake up one morning in your mid 20s and decide to be a professional fighter lmao.

I'm pretty sure Kage knows the barriers and stuff in the process, I'm pretty sure he just doesn't care lol

If we all had his attitude, we would all be more successful in our lives, even if it wasn't in what we were originally planning to do.

 

[Tekk]

Kage really lives in a shonen.

 

[Strong Badam]

If they di up the hitstun will be thier but it wont be a jab reset. It would pull you up quickly. The jab reset is good around 0%-30% i think.

Depends on opponent's weight/falling speed/downward acceleration how long it works

 

[Sinji]

Depends on opponent's weight/falling speed/downward acceleration how long it works

True. I am testing it right now in falco dittos.

 

[Bones0]

Even if it doesn't reset, it's disorienting as ****. If you're not sure if it will reset, just laser into shield, and shield grab on reaction.

Random question (for Strong Bad?): can you hold buttons to buffer actions out of get up? Like if I am holding L/R just after I bounce onto the ground (missing the tech), will I just do a get up in place, or do I have to repress it? Same question goes for holding A/Z to get-up-attack.

 

[Dr Peepee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7FGTaVlYTs&feature=g-all-u&context=G2c27927FAAAAAAAALAA#t=13m40s

can I get a critique?

Your Falco is pretty slow(more movement imo), tends to laser in place, and needs overall tech skill work.

You FH as an automatic reaction to getting hit sometimes and that's easy to chase and punish. Either slightly delay the FH or just don't do it as much.

delay your dairs and FF them into sheik so you can continue to combo her at low %.

try to avoid shining someone when they're on the ground at a fairly high percent because your shine is usually staled by that point.

ROFL

i can only imagine, ur talking about the urban dictionary link? maybe that's why it didn't catch on like johns did LOL

uhhh let me find u what i was referring too...
it's significantly less sexual

here it's a big long read if u dun wanna read it

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/2005_Stuck_In_The_Middle_With_Bruce.html

i'll sum up in spoilers cause it's a pretty good read any way

u'll probably enjoy the articles style of writing too

Spoiler

basically brucing is making a decision, conscious or otherwise, that you know to be sub optimal, or directly counter productive to winning, in order to for ____ reason to cause yourself to lose, my interpretation, or maybe this is verbatim from the article i can't remember, was to almost cushion the blow of a loss. an example would be going for that a risky off the stage spike that costs ur 2nd jump and getting gimped for it, when u know that the best option was to stay on the stage and handle it safely from there

i wonder if all brawl becomes a standard tourney side even it it will help smash's image or hurt it...

That is an interesting way to put this, but it implies that I just can't win playing straight up. I'm not really a fan of that logic in my own case since I believe I can beat him with or without saying stupid stuff like that to him to make him play worse.

If I lose, then I lost because I got outplayed. There may be other things I'll know related to why I lost(not finding that level of play I found before, etc) but I won't use it as an excuse, and I certainly won't tell myself I could have won if I just told him I wasn't feeling well. That's just not okay to me and it doesn't make me any better of a player in the long run(because how many people will that work on anyway, if we assume that's a player skill?).

All Brawl will probably just reinforce everyone's already existing opinions of smash.

Depends on the player. I guess I've met some pretty dirty players over the years though. Newer players are gayer on the boards and less sincere with you as a general statement, but they are cleaner and nicer in person than they used to be.

Kevin I think you're approaching the lasers thing correctly but for the wrong reasons. You don't want to use them from a true neutral position because that's when you should be closing space, and no amount of space requires 3 lasers. You can justify MAYBE 2 but generally once you're in your position the gun can go away in favor of pressuring with strong spacing game and your area of threat. I think using lasers as a damaging tool is a horribly outdated and dangerous strategy, and if you're not using them strictly for control they're not worth the risk, which is an idea that goes along with "spam". Just IMO.

Again, I think strong spacing and a good positioning game are the 2 main aspects that the better players should be focusing on because they solve SO many problems or simply put you above your near-competitors. On stages with larger "escape" areas over falco (DL64 is a good example) I think you can justify more lasers from the neutral game, but on stages like fountain it's really hard to make good use of them even for control, and you'd be better off controlling the center box like you'd expect from ganon or peach and preventing good movement from your opponent.

Except maybe fox. Fox is gay on rainbow fountains lol.

I was considering this more in terms of conditioning, and I certainly don't think I'll need to use 3 in general, which is why using 3 to make people think I could spam would be an interesting decision. I'm more interested in how people respond to the thought of being spammed than the actual strategy of spamming. If I shoot 3 times in neutral position once or twice a game in a given set, then I don't think that will necessarily be detrimental to my play, and it will give the opponent another real option I could use to mess with their heads. If I alternate spacing with each laser, then if my 3rd is typically a retreat and I attack after the 2nd laser from normal 2nd laser spacing(assuming I make this consistent) then that is definitely a way to trip someone up. Surprising the opponent is the best way to get hits which lead to dair combos which lead to kills ideally for Falco. Yes I should focus on playing for stage positioning, but once I have it I don't see the harm in utilizing as many different strategies as I possibly can to increase that advantage.

And yeah sometimes I find myself lasering a TON at Fox but that definitely depends on the Fox haha. I really just like hitting that guy. =p

Do you have any input on usage of small, reverse SHLs? They've become somewhat of a staple of my game play, but I'm not really sure what role they play, if any. Is using them to reset spacing a legit strategy, or is this me using it as a crutch for getting out-spaced?

Ahhhh yeah I do those/used to do those. I talked to Cactuar about my play one day(because Cactuar is the man) and he told me that the small reverse SHL I do is one that solidly keeps the opponent from approaching while allowing me to micromanage my spacing. I don't think I do them much anymore because people don't approach as much now but you better believe if the metagame shifts back to aggression you'll probably see me doing more of that. =p

The important thing to remember with any tactic you use is you need to be able to explain why it's good to yourself. If you can't figure it out, then try not using it in matches and seeing what happens to you or what holes become apparent. If nothing changes then maybe you didn't need the trick after all. Maybe what you're doing doesn't make as much sense as it could and you tweak it a little to make it more effective. It's really all up to you and how much thought you want to put into your game.

Hmm I should try WD OoS into Ganon, but usually I'm too scared. My autoreaction would be to try to shoot a laser in their face but playing someone with good spacing and jumping = getting hit out of your jump offstage for an instant stock. It just feels like there could be SOMETHING I could do to punish their f-airs and jabs cause it's so obvious.

Marth... I never really know what to do cause if I jump for any attack, they can just hit me cause they have more range at that point, if I go onto the ledge then I only have a few options, etc etc... Fullhop would work if Falco could actually cover horizontal distance while stand-still jumping forward...

I never actually ended up playing the Ganon in the tournament, but my first bracket match was against the best guy in my province, and he 3 stocked me both games with Marth.

His punishes are so precise and fast.

WD'ing OOS into Ganon may not be good LOL. That guy loves to hit shields.

If you're pressured by the edge and he's not doing anything just kinda moving around, then you can definitely WD OOS into him with like jab or ftilt or shine or whatever you feel is ****. Just don't always do it at the same time haha that's a fast way to get hit and you may end up thinking the situation is hopeless. Timing is KEY.

Marth....you'll want to shoot him lol. Move before and after shooting so he doesn't know when you will attack because yeah that sword does beat your moves. Remember the size of his moves and flirt with that spacing, see if you can get him to commit or retreat.

Just don't get frustrated or scared, that makes his life even easier. Stay confident that your laser can help you and your combos are solid.

I'm tellin' you, Phantasm ledge cancels are too good. Even Fox can't catch you.

junk's ****.

I also play some marths (jesiahteg, inty17) that push me near to the ledge and then wait for me to jump and they are fast enough to react to most anything I try. Trying to get away or do a normal approach is suicide usually. I've been thinking about stuff like wavedash forward and jab, ftilt (if they are higher percent), maybe even run up grab? Haven't got to test any of this yet, but anything that keeps me grounded and comes out fast should work I think. Once I have them scared of this I think it will be safe to laser in place near the ledge again.

Something that does work for me most of the time is full hop forward, then use air control backward and land where you started, they will retreat to center stage to cut me off and then when I land where I was I have time to laser or something. No ones caught on yet...

Learning the top platform LC phantasm is something I think could be handy, too.

All of this is very good. Be sure to land from your FH with a laser(Mango does this fairly often so you can watch him for ideas on how to use it).

Boom's take on melee:

"dude it's super boring all you have to do is play marth and grab"

Also Isai played low tiers at G2, just saying.

I haven't heard that type of view on Melee in AGES lmao. old school ****.

Depends on opponent's weight/falling speed/downward acceleration how long it works

Could you elaborate please?






I played with DoH last weekend, and I feel pretty good about the Peach matchup now. I have a couple combo/edgeguard things I need to fix but otherwise I feel pretty confident about that, although Armada is of course a much more solid player. I'm very interested to see how I'll do with some Peach grinding experience under my belt. =)

 

[Bones0]

The important thing to remember with any tactic you use is you need to be able to explain why it's good to yourself. If you can't figure it out, then try not using it in matches and seeing what happens to you or what holes become apparent. If nothing changes then maybe you didn't need the trick after all. Maybe what you're doing doesn't make as much sense as it could and you tweak it a little to make it more effective. It's really all up to you and how much thought you want to put into your game.

Duuuuude... Cannot believe I never thought about something so simple. I'm just gonna do that right now to see what I can trim/buff from my game. EPIPHANY MODE, ACTIVATE!

 

[ruhtraeel]

Why does jab runaway grab never work for me? Is it because I need to make it more random and do jab into attacks more so they don't expect it?

and how do I edgeguard Marth in general

I always get attacked while holding onto the ledge and I end up rolling and dropping the edgeguard, I've tried spacing d-smash but that's hard, and also angled f-tilt never kills them cause they DI properly most of the time

Right now I just bait the ledge hop attack then CC d-smash

 

[Bl@ckChris]

ledgestall with up b to regain invincibility.

 

[ruhtraeel]

ledgestall with up b to regain invincibility.

Ok I've thought about that and I've tried it but it's hard to predict the regrab ledge timing because it is different even if you are like one pixel lower than before

and you're pretty much screwed if you mess up the timing and get attacked

 

[Bl@ckChris]

if you're too scared about timing, ledgestall with your double jump. but i feel like you can air control a little bit during the firebird and can get yourself back to the ledge effectively.

or just wait to get on the edge until you need to be. just short hop near by until you want it.

edit: also shining before the up b can make sure you stay where you need to. just a thought.

 

[flaw]

Why does jab runaway grab never work for me? Is it because I need to make it more random and do jab into attacks more so they don't expect it?

You mean jab -> dd -> grab, right? I don't do it a lot yet but I'm beginning to see how it works. I jab -> grab a lot atm and I see some people expecting it and trying to shield grab me out of it. The dd can prevent this, and I think it might(?) be safer than going for the second jab to mix it up.