PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Deleted member]

Do you have any input on usage of small, reverse SHLs? They've become somewhat of a staple of my game play, but I'm not really sure what role they play, if any. Is using them to reset spacing a legit strategy, or is this me using it as a crutch for getting out-spaced?

I think they're a strong mix-up and add a lot to a narrow range dashdance, which can be incredibly useful for falco's spacing game to overcome his low ground speed. I don't think they do much for you offensively, but it's also difficult to take advantage of them and it still serves their best purpose of control.

I think the best use for them is to catch OOS abusers, since the stun + fall time to the ground + landing lag is actually a lot more than it looks like. So long as the opponent stays grounded, they can still do the crutch of taking the lasers and attacking anyway. Probably less on a read than on reflex/luck/disrespect, but it's still dangerous to you regardless of WHY they hit you. For this reason I'd be hesitant to use it on say sheik or fox but i think it's really good against marth and peach.

If a strategy is money for you consistently vs a large range of players, it's not really a crutch anymore, is it? Again, all IMO.

 

[unknown522]

Did i back out of one vs. you? my apologies
we'll get one this time for sure

vanz demoralized me pretty hard not gonna lie, nothing like that will happen this go round though

np. Welcome to the losing to Vanz fanclub.

are we talking about ways to prevent samus from grabbing the ledge? or getting back into a favorable position once the ledge has been grabbed

both, but she shouldn't be grabbing the ledge if you edgeguard properly.

i have one thing for each that is pretty solid that i haven't seen from any other samus

feel free to explain how you think you can edgeguard, her though, unless you think it's easily counterable lol

i've never really had a hard time vs falco on the edge i wasn't even aware falcos thought they had an easy time edgeguarding samus haha

my solid things are more for matchups like fox/ganon/marth, maybe shiek, kinda shiek i guess, idk exactly how sheiks do it, i should be alright though

actually here, lemme just say that if you think grabbing the ledge vs. her grapple is the end all that's quite wrong, however you spin it, unless your fox then you get to guess and get a kill, with only a small risk to yourself, falco on the other hand i have never seen anything solidly beat my work arounds

and aerial interrupting is my preferred way to get back onto the stage from the ledge btw, i would say atm i'm probably about 60/70% consistent with it, averaging probably something like 5 actionable invincibility frames, any where from -x to +8 though
gonna have to remember to practice that before apex...should be 80/90% consistent by the time tourney rolls around


but far be it for me to try and convince you falco can't edgeguard samus, you'll see in our MM's

I read all of this.

But yeah, I do think that grabbing the edge vs samus' grapple is the end in most matchups vs her. Unfortunately for her, the other recovery methods are pretty laggy, so you can hit her back off the stage (wall ride grapple [dunno the name for it], up-b, walltech -> anything, walljump -> something, airdodge onto the stage).

For the grapple sweetspot, just edgehog her, then when she pulls up then you legehop with her and b-air/d-air. D-air is less reliable cuz it may put her on the stage. Still since you b-air her back off then she has no grapple on the second recovery attempt. The one counter attempt I've seen from this was walljump -> instant airdodge, but then after missing the aerial I just d-smash them back off.

I find that when I fail edgeguards vs samus, it's either by my own mistake, or if I get lazy.

For the aerial interrupting thing you said, do you mean the u-air cancel? Cuz that's a solid way to get back onto the stage if you're consistent. I haven't known anyone other than myself yet than can do it semi-consistently (I barely play as samus though, but I was trying to teach Duck and Rat how to use it when we were at the Big House).

 

[AvengerAngel]

i think breaking his fingers is a bit further down the path than some pre-game mindgames

Wait till 2013... the metagame will evolve further and the "mindgame" concept will totally change (people will be smashing with hammers unguarded pads at tournaments and so on)

 

[Pi]

&unknown yea, we gotta get some matches in

 

[silentSWAG]

Jeez. You guys need to sumarize stuff. I dont feel like reading all of this

 

[Bones0]

Ummmm... are you serious? No one reads other peoples' posts. You just wait for someone to post about something, quote them, then type your opinion completely disregarding what they may have said.

 

[silentSWAG]

So thats how your supose to post

 

[crush]

swag do you have any advice for us inferior SSBM players? how do we get 9th at a national?

 

[FrootLoop]

So thats how your supose to post

lol @ pi: "tell me how you edgeguard samus and I'll repeatedly tell you I have a secret workaround that you'll only see in our mm later"

productive chat right there

 

[Pi]

lol @ pi: "tell me how you edgeguard samus and i'll repeatedly tell you i have a secret workaround that you'll only see in our mm later"

productive chat right there

mm ?

 

[silentSWAG]

Froot loop is prety good

 

[unknown522]

Looking forward to it Pi.

I'm interested in seeing those tricks you have up your sleeve (It's not like I don't believe you or anything, but I'd like to see it).

 

[ruhtraeel]

I've actually thought a lot about this, but for me personally I want to win when he's at his best(with the not playing right now anyway). I'm willing to put up with the crud I get in the meantime.



If Ganon is right on top of me and is doing that Fair Jab thing, then I just roll away. If the jab is well spaced I try to WD OOS in between jabs(pretty sure that works). If that doesn't work then I'll shield DI away like I'm going to roll and if they move then I either shoot them or roll or get on a platform or wavedash...just different stuff depending on my % how aggressive the Ganon player is, how many stocks we have, etc etc. try not to just have ONE answer for every situation though because if/when they adapt that makes life hard if you aren't ready. If you're against the edge and don't wanna roll away it's better to just shield DI to fall to the edge because Ganons LOVE that roll into them lol. Plus jab lag let's them react to the roll.

If Marth has you pinned then this is a different situation depending on my %, his %, stage, exactly how pinned I am, the type of Marth I'm fighting, and what conditioning things have been established.

If I just want to speak generally here, then a solid thought is trying to establish laser control. It still works even if you don't have much stage, just not as effectively of course lol.

If Marth is "too close" for you to laser then the game becomes a matter of spacing and, much more importantly, timing(something I should also realllllly write about guh). Ideally you don't want to become reactive, but in that type of situation you don't have much choice. If you don't have your shield up but don't want to laser, then try to dash/WD towards Marth and see if you can take stage. Often, Marth is looking for a defensive reaction to punish here. Sometimes Marth is just planning on swinging/grabbing though, and for that you just need to learn the other player. If Marth wants to swing then you should CC/shield/roll/jump accordingly(depends on the move and spacing). If Marth wants to grab then you should either hit him or dodge obviously.

It's a tough situation and isn't meant to be won all that often because it makes you unable to be proactive(it doesn't make you reactive though because I don't think one can feasibly react to Marth's options when pinned at the ideal range against the edge). Remembering to trip up Marth and keep him afraid of your options or taking as much space to work with as you can is always good because it opens up potential for more options, and more options means more chances to escape or reverse the situation on Marth.

Hmm I should try WD OoS into Ganon, but usually I'm too scared. My autoreaction would be to try to shoot a laser in their face but playing someone with good spacing and jumping = getting hit out of your jump offstage for an instant stock. It just feels like there could be SOMETHING I could do to punish their f-airs and jabs cause it's so obvious.

Marth... I never really know what to do cause if I jump for any attack, they can just hit me cause they have more range at that point, if I go onto the ledge then I only have a few options, etc etc... Fullhop would work if Falco could actually cover horizontal distance while stand-still jumping forward...

I never actually ended up playing the Ganon in the tournament, but my first bracket match was against the best guy in my province, and he 3 stocked me both games with Marth.

His punishes are so precise and fast.

 

[SSBMLahti]

I never actually ended up playing the Ganon in the tournament, but my first bracket match was against the best guy in my province, and he 3 stocked me 2-0 with Marth. His punishes are so precise and fast.

Who's the best in your province?

 

[ruhtraeel]

Who's the best in your province?

Falsefalco and Superboomfan. The one I played was Falsefalco.

FF punishes people who lack advanced skills in the game, while Superboomfan punishes fundamental flaws.

Superboom will capitalize on every single mistake you make, while FF will just outplay you with more skill.

FF is more fun to play though because it feels like he understands Melee and Marth really well, but SB just feels like he's just really good at Smash in general.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Falsefalco and Superboomfan. The one I played was Falsefalco.

FF punishes people who lack advanced skills in the game, while Superboomfan punishes fundamental flaws.

Superboom will capitalize on every single mistake you make, while FF will just outplay you with more skill.

FF is more fun to play though because it feels like he understands Melee and Marth really well, but SB just feels like he's just really good at Smash in general.

So FalseFalco isn't a Falco main I assume? What about Superboomfan?

 

[ruhtraeel]

So FalseFalco isn't a Falco main I assume? What about Superboomfan?

They are both Marths. FF used to play Falco, but now that's False. His Falco is still really good though, same with his Falcon.

SB just plays whatever character can space and just hit people to win with minimal tech skill, which is Marth and Fox

This is the SB who is arguably best in WC Canada for Brawl, best in province for Melee, and second/best in the world for 64, although he did beat Isai at Genesis 2.

FF = Combo you to death with perfect choice of moves
SB = DD with amazing spacing until you panic and throw out a move you didn't think about, grab then repeat until you are near a ledge them gimp or high percent kill
More punishy in general

 

[Bones0]

Fullhop would work if Falco could actually cover horizontal distance while stand-still jumping forward...

I'm tellin' you, Phantasm ledge cancels are too good. Even Fox can't catch you.

 

[ruhtraeel]

I'm tellin' you, Phantasm ledge cancels are too good. Even Fox can't catch you.

I can only phantasm ledge cancel well when I'm on a side platform and I side b across the middle to the ledge of the other platform

Fox can just full hop nair you in the middle of it...
Marth will utilt
Ganon will uair

 

[flaw]

I also play some marths (jesiahteg, inty17) that push me near to the ledge and then wait for me to jump and they are fast enough to react to most anything I try. Trying to get away or do a normal approach is suicide usually. I've been thinking about stuff like wavedash forward and jab, ftilt (if they are higher percent), maybe even run up grab? Haven't got to test any of this yet, but anything that keeps me grounded and comes out fast should work I think. Once I have them scared of this I think it will be safe to laser in place near the ledge again.

Something that does work for me most of the time is full hop forward, then use air control backward and land where you started, they will retreat to center stage to cut me off and then when I land where I was I have time to laser or something. No ones caught on yet...

Learning the top platform LC phantasm is something I think could be handy, too.

 

[bolt.]

Started off the new year by doing about 40 falco mulitshines. Feels good.

 

[Pi]

Froot loop is prety good

yawwwwnnn
forgive me but i'm gonna go ahead and sleep on him any way

 

[Battlecow]

SB just plays whatever character can space and just hit people to win with minimal tech skill, which is Marth and Fox

This is the SB who is arguably best in WC Canada for Brawl, best in province for Melee, and second/best in the world for 64, although he did beat Isai at Genesis 2.

Boom's take on melee:

"dude it's super boring all you have to do is play marth and grab"

Also Isai played low tiers at G2, just saying.

 

[unknown522]

^ this guy bashing melee.

Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Also, I'm pretty sure that False Falco is still better than him in his province.

I also play some marths (jesiahteg, inty17) that push me near to the ledge and then wait for me to jump and they are fast enough to react to most anything I try. Trying to get away or do a normal approach is suicide usually. I've been thinking about stuff like wavedash forward and jab, ftilt (if they are higher percent), maybe even run up grab? Haven't got to test any of this yet, but anything that keeps me grounded and comes out fast should work I think. Once I have them scared of this I think it will be safe to laser in place near the ledge again.

Something that does work for me most of the time is full hop forward, then use air control backward and land where you started, they will retreat to center stage to cut me off and then when I land where I was I have time to laser or something. No ones caught on yet...

Learning the top platform LC phantasm is something I think could be handy, too.

try taking the ledge, then do a ledge-hop double laser if they commit to something. And if they don't then do a ledge-WD instead.

They're good tactics as long as you have the tech skill to do it.


oh yeah, another set came up a few days ago: myslef vs Vudujin
There was a power-outage, so we restarted game 1

 

[ruhtraeel]

Boom's take on melee:

"dude it's super boring all you have to do is play marth and grab"

Also Isai played low tiers at G2, just saying.

Yeah I heard about Isai playing low-tiers

and yeah Dan apparently likes Melee the least out of the 3 games


But I think I have more trouble vs Superboom cause he just punishes the crap out of you, while FF just knows how to play the game really well

But I also think FF would get farther in a big tournament because at higher ranks, there's like so little to punish anyways lol

And SB just plays to win while FF plays to have fun too

 

[Druggedfox]

You know, as amazing as marth is, I'd love to see him try this "play marth and grab" strategy vs. you know... the top level metagame of today >_>

Edit: If he'd mentioned swinging marth's sword I might have agreed

 

[Divinokage]

Heh, it's not that simple. =P

 

[-ACE-]

I heard marth's cg on sheik jiggs and peach is mad wicked yo

 

[ruhtraeel]

You know, as amazing as marth is, I'd love to see him try this "play marth and grab" strategy vs. you know... the top level metagame of today >_>

Edit: If he'd mentioned swinging marth's sword I might have agreed

ok well yeah he does more than that, but he just plays really punishy in general

but yeah he might be going to Apex 2012 so I want to see if he joins Melee

 

[Divinokage]

Might be? If he didnt register already, its too late.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Kage I want to see you play FF again, you'd probably win though

Alberta needs to travel again

One day, he will join a national tournament as a random and see how many people he can take down...

 

[Divinokage]

Sorry but if it isn't at Apex, then it's never going to happen again, I'm moving on.

 

[crush]

yes finally

 

[Bones0]

lol @ good players who think they can quit Melee.

 

[Divinokage]

Ken did, so can I. It's not about quitting, it's about following your dreams. All my adventures in Melee taught me plenty of lessons but a career cannot be had in this game. So, I will find something that I can do this in. I already have a fun job, now all I need to do is use whatever time I have after that and train my *** off to become a real pro fighter. Step it up! =)

 

[Redd]

Kage has a will much stronger than your average warrior... I'm sure he'll do what he has to.

Kage, let's do our MM here. Recorded. Legendary.

 

[Warhawk]

If it really is your last tournament I hope you go out with a bang at Apex, Kage.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Ken did, so can I. It's not about quitting, it's about following your dreams. All my adventures in Melee taught me plenty of lessons but a career cannot be had in this game. So, I will find something that I can do this in. I already have a fun job, now all I need to do is use whatever time I have after that and train my *** off to become a real pro fighter. Step it up! =)

SADFACE

Just when Alberta's scene is starting to grow again...

Please at least play the game like once a year or something so the memories don't die...

And yeah career =/= smash, but as it was originally designed, it's a fun game not designed to be taken to the level it is at now. Simply because it happened, it's amazing.

I think it isn't too hard to turn casual instead of quitting altogether like Ken did. I mean, Sid (lemonlau) in Edmonton I think has the earliest join date I have ever seen on smashboards, which I think is November 2001 or something.

Of course he doesn't play the game as seriously as he once did, but he occasionally still plays a couple of games even though it's not as serious as before.

Unless you have personal reasons to never touch smash again, I think it shouldn't be too hard to go the route of other veterans like Foward and Darkrain (and his family LOL), who have technically moved on, but still have a connection to it.


I've heard stories about you and how you started to go to a lot of national tournaments and started to improve really fast and stuff, and that takes an insane amount of dedication to accomplish.
For life in the future, at least for myself, if I ever put that much dedication into smash, I think eventually when I decide to move on, I will go back to step 1, which was not leaving my province for tournaments and just playing once or twice a week with some friends. IMO, this is a viable route for dedicated smashers who have already put so much into it.


GL HF with life, too bad I joined so late in this game... but maybe our paths will cross in the future :-D

 

[Druggedfox]

Kage quitting smash

???

 

[PolishSmash]

Chillllll don't quit! Nah Kage you won't quit, you'll go back haha How can you quit Melee that's like impossible lol And the Marth thing, I would love for Marth to get back up in the Metagame facing the Puff, Falcos, and Foxes. But I don't think its going to happen. Maybe I'll change that. We'll see in a year when I get better lol