PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Deleted member]

I've actually thought a lot about this, but for me personally I want to win when he's at his best(with the not playing right now anyway).

 

[Druggedfox]

^I lost

And aight PP, there's probably quite a bit to nitpick >_> I started writing on a whim and then completely lost interest as I was doing it...bleh. I'm interested to hear it all regardless :D

Also kinda interested in what you figured out related to that day you played amazingly

 

[Dr Peepee]

I solved like every problem I had it was so good <.<

Oh you mean that thing I remembered.....some of it was mindset, other parts of it was related to neutral position.

Mindset: I remembered I need to focus on keeping a close spacing and lasers are an extension of my spacing. I keep in mind that being relatively close to my opponent is something that is pretty good because that's where Falco's true pressure lies, not in lasering from mid stage if the opponent isn't biting. Also, staying positive but still wanting to execute perfectly every time, that is how I solve my motivation problem. =) As long as I get hit, then when I'm playing like this I want to do better and play hard.

Neutral position: The amount of lasers shot(up to 3 probably) affect people's responses in a similar way for each person, but differently for each number of lasers used. For example, I think many people would try to attack/dodge through a first laser, but if a second one directly follows, then people may feel locked up temporarily. A third one usually registers to people as spam. I need to test this idea more, but I think there's something in this idea(that I subconsciously abuse while playing well which is annoying lol) that causes people to act similarly for each amount of lasers shot and can probably be turned to my advantage. Mango doesn't shoot many lasers because of something possibly related to this principle as well. I don't think I shot many when I played really well so it may have to do with how long it takes to shoot or something and....lol I'm just guessing right now I should just test it. XD
Edit: Forgot to mention that each laser probably accomplishes a different conditioning at different spacings but I believe spacing is the main factor involved here. Shouldn't be that hard to play around with and adjust to test.

Yeah I'll get back to your post eventually. promise.


also LOL umbreon I approve. =p

 

[Druggedfox]

I think the lack of lasers has to do with movement stuff with falco btw

There's a lot to say about what you said... idk I'll aim you later >_>

 

[Dr Peepee]

yes but movement stuff is all so vague and has to do with spacing/threats of moves and such so I didn't feel right using a term like "movement" to cover it.

I'll be home Saturday night but I'm not sure when I'll be on AIM next before the night of the 2nd, honestly. Just leave me a message lol.

 

[FoxLisk]

my feeling about shooting a lot of lasers has for a while been that mango shoots less lasors because his opponent has to respect them whether or not he actually fires, so he just takes advantage of that....

 

[Pi]

so, PP's mindset about choosing not to attempt to pre-match mindgame mango

is that brucing?
technically speaking
and then morally speaking

i think it supersedes all forms of 'john' but it seems like it might fall under the 'bruce' category

 

[unknown522]

Technically they have three actionable frames, but the shine happens on that third frame, so you'd have to be doing an invincible one-frame move to not get hit by it, which basically narrows it down to another shine and moves that are invincible frame-1 like Samus and Bowser's up-Bs.

Spot dodges are invincible frame 2, so that's still an option, but if we're assuming perfect gameplay, Falco still has plenty of options to punish the recovery on the spot dodge. Rolls are invincible frame 4, so if you try to buffer a roll after the first shine, you'll get hit, but again this is assuming frame perfection and no staling on the shine, so under real conditions it's probably a good option.

oh yeah, that's true. I made a mistake there.

@unknown falco edgeguards vs samus suck
foxes are p good
marths suck

i don't know what you think you can do vs. her grapple but i'm pretty sure i have counters too it

I knew it.

p.s. MM me at apex

so are you gonna back out of the MM at the last second again?

 

[Pi]

Did i back out of one vs. you? my apologies
we'll get one this time for sure

vanz demoralized me pretty hard not gonna lie, nothing like that will happen this go round though

are we talking about ways to prevent samus from grabbing the ledge? or getting back into a favorable position once the ledge has been grabbed

i have one thing for each that is pretty solid that i haven't seen from any other samus

feel free to explain how you think you can edgeguard, her though, unless you think it's easily counterable lol

i've never really had a hard time vs falco on the edge i wasn't even aware falcos thought they had an easy time edgeguarding samus haha

my solid things are more for matchups like fox/ganon/marth, maybe shiek, kinda shiek i guess, idk exactly how sheiks do it, i should be alright though

actually here, lemme just say that if you think grabbing the ledge vs. her grapple is the end all that's quite wrong, however you spin it, unless your fox then you get to guess and get a kill, with only a small risk to yourself, falco on the other hand i have never seen anything solidly beat my work arounds

and aerial interrupting is my preferred way to get back onto the stage from the ledge btw, i would say atm i'm probably about 60/70% consistent with it, averaging probably something like 5 actionable invincibility frames, any where from -x to +8 though
gonna have to remember to practice that before apex...should be 80/90% consistent by the time tourney rolls around


but far be it for me to try and convince you falco can't edgeguard samus, you'll see in our MM's

 

[PB&J]

Knit-i want to show you something @ apex falco can do to samus when she graples,i really dont want to post it because dont want people to say its impossible or something stupid,but we will play @ apex and ill show what i mean

 

[Bones0]

Knit-i want to show you something @ apex falco can do to samus when she graples,i really dont want to post it because dont want people to say its impossible or something stupid,but we will play @ apex and ill show what i mean

It's impossible.

 

[Pi]

if it's the shine turnaround dair then you already showed me that at To5...**** was ****

but my counter counters it

i hope it's not something else, i'd hate to also get edgeguarded by falco along w/ all the other **** he has lol, such an annoying matchup

 

[Deleted member]

how to edge guard samus as falco: don't care what she does and attack it cause she can't crouch and your moves always win forever.

this game is deep.

 

[Pi]

yea just do that falco's

please just do that @.@

 

[Dr Peepee]

so, PP's mindset about choosing not to attempt to pre-match mindgame mango

is that brucing?
technically speaking
and then morally speaking

i think it supersedes all forms of 'john' but it seems like it might fall under the 'bruce' category

I looked up "brucing" and....

what?

 

[Bones0]

Samus's uair out prioritizes Falco's dair.

Truth hurts.

 

[Niko45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7FGTaVlYTs&feature=g-all-u&context=G2c27927FAAAAAAAALAA#t=13m40s

can I get a critique?

 

[Pi]

I looked up "brucing" and....

what?

ROFL

i can only imagine, ur talking about the urban dictionary link? maybe that's why it didn't catch on like johns did LOL

uhhh let me find u what i was referring too...
it's significantly less sexual

here it's a big long read if u dun wanna read it

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/2005_Stuck_In_The_Middle_With_Bruce.html

i'll sum up in spoilers cause it's a pretty good read any way

u'll probably enjoy the articles style of writing too

Spoiler

basically brucing is making a decision, conscious or otherwise, that you know to be sub optimal, or directly counter productive to winning, in order to for ____ reason to cause yourself to lose, my interpretation, or maybe this is verbatim from the article i can't remember, was to almost cushion the blow of a loss. an example would be going for that a risky off the stage spike that costs ur 2nd jump and getting gimped for it, when u know that the best option was to stay on the stage and handle it safely from there

i wonder if all brawl becomes a standard tourney side even it it will help smash's image or hurt it...

 

[Bones0]

By that logic, it is brucing for PP to not break Mango's fingers. You have to draw a line somewhere, plus PP's desire to beat Mango at his best will help him improve more. It's more along the lines of playing to learn, as opposed to getting Mango drunk and taking a win, but not having improved or learned anything.

 

[Pi]

By that logic, it is brucing for PP to not break Mango's fingers. You have to draw a line somewhere, plus PP's desire to beat Mango at his best will help him improve more. It's more along the lines of playing to learn, as opposed to getting Mango drunk and taking a win, but not having improved or learned anything.

you can't just say you have to draw the line
and then not draw the line

i think breaking his fingers is a bit further down the path than some pre-game mindgames

 

[crush]

i think someone should kill hbox

 

[Battlecow]

Nah, it's wrong not to bruce if not brucing requires attempting to sabotage your opponent with dirty tricks outside of the game.

 

[Pi]

what dirty tricks...
what are dirty tricks any way
i wasn't talking about poisoning him, or slashing his tires

i'm talkin like tellin mango/everyone ur not feelin well/nervous when ur fine or something

since when has breaking someones fingers ever been considered mindgames lol

 

[Xyzz]

By that logic, it is brucing for PP to not break Mango's fingers. You have to draw a line somewhere, plus PP's desire to beat Mango at his best will help him improve more. It's more along the lines of playing to learn, as opposed to getting Mango drunk and taking a win, but not having improved or learned anything.

I heard Mango doesn't need much help to get drunk :D


And I think, the line is pretty much drawn by "tournament legal"; thou shalt not hit your opponent and stuff

 

[Bones0]

I thought it was obvious that the line is drawn between inside and outside of the game... Inside the game, anything goes.

 

[Pi]

lol so you're not supposed to say anything outside of the game that may influence your opponents play negatively or in a way to benefit yourself? lol

 

[Divinokage]

You can do whatever you want.. especially when everyone thinks for example that it's just "Ganon". Already I have a small advantage. lol.

 

[Bones0]

lol so you're not supposed to say anything outside of the game that may influence your opponents play negatively or in a way to benefit yourself? lol

It's not that you're "not supposed to" or "not allowed to" do anything outside the game to improve your chances. Personally, I use these things all the time, but to say someone is Brucing or being a scrub by not abusing advantages outside of the game is just ridiculous.

 

[CK Momentum]

What is Brucing? is that Johning?

 

[Bones0]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13866226&postcount=13378

 

[Doser]

you can't just say you have to draw the line
and then not draw the line

i think breaking his fingers is a bit further down the path than some pre-game mindgames

You don't get it, you're the one who drew the line saying outside mindgames are necessary to not be a scrub. It's ultimately up to Dr. PP to decide what he wants to do before a match, and saying that he is "brucing" if he doesn't do what you think is optimal is moronic.

 

[Sinji]

Dont know where to post this but im in new york now.

 

[Veetaak]

Dont know where to post this but im in new york now.

Facebook or twitter maybe?

 

[crush]

wtf sinji how did you cross the border??

 

[Divinokage]

He crushed it.

 

[crush]

i thought there wasnt even a actual border between here and mexico? or are mexicans just really good at climbing walls?

 

[Pi]

i'm just gonna quote my initial post on the subject

so, PP's mindset about choosing not to attempt to pre-match mindgame mango

is that brucing?
technically speaking
and then morally speaking

i think it supersedes all forms of 'john' but it seems like it might fall under the 'bruce' category

and then ask where you're drawing your assumptions that i called PP a scrub, or thought his choice not to do it was sub optimal

or assumed that i was talking about breaking mango's fingers

i asked if his choice not to do it would fall under the category of brucing, nothing more nothing less


doser ur just like really bad at this game

 

[Sinji]

@Veetaak. Lol i cant seem to get on my facebook account because of security questions on my phone.

@Crush lol i been to America a lot of times before. I have family here.

 

[Deleted member]

I thought it was obvious that the line is drawn between inside and outside of the game... Inside the game, anything goes.

Depends on the player. I guess I've met some pretty dirty players over the years though. Newer players are gayer on the boards and less sincere with you as a general statement, but they are cleaner and nicer in person than they used to be.

Kevin I think you're approaching the lasers thing correctly but for the wrong reasons. You don't want to use them from a true neutral position because that's when you should be closing space, and no amount of space requires 3 lasers. You can justify MAYBE 2 but generally once you're in your position the gun can go away in favor of pressuring with strong spacing game and your area of threat. I think using lasers as a damaging tool is a horribly outdated and dangerous strategy, and if you're not using them strictly for control they're not worth the risk, which is an idea that goes along with "spam". Just IMO.

Again, I think strong spacing and a good positioning game are the 2 main aspects that the better players should be focusing on because they solve SO many problems or simply put you above your near-competitors. On stages with larger "escape" areas over falco (DL64 is a good example) I think you can justify more lasers from the neutral game, but on stages like fountain it's really hard to make good use of them even for control, and you'd be better off controlling the center box like you'd expect from ganon or peach and preventing good movement from your opponent.

Except maybe fox. Fox is gay on rainbow fountains lol.

 

[Bones0]

Do you have any input on usage of small, reverse SHLs? They've become somewhat of a staple of my game play, but I'm not really sure what role they play, if any. Is using them to reset spacing a legit strategy, or is this me using it as a crutch for getting out-spaced?