PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[tarheeljks]

will be at apex if anyone wants to meet, play, chill

 

[Druggedfox]

Why isn't it true zoso?

I recall feeling like it wasn't the case a while ago... then I thought about it, and I figured there's no way they'd leave shield stun. Explain?

 

[ZoSo]

Fresh shine causes ten frames of shield stun.

Falco and the target are in hitlag for 5 frames, then 2 frames have to pass before you can jump out of the shine, 5 frames of prejump, second shine happens on the sixth frame. Basically, if you assume frame perfection and no staling on the first shine, they have 2 actionable frames before the second shine happens.

 

[Bones0]

Pretty sure you just described what would happen without shield stun...

 

[AvengerAngel]

Nope, he's right. Perfect multishines leave the opponent without shield stun for 2 frames, but it doesn't really matter. If you're in their shield you'll probably catch them while they're trying to buffer something OOS like roll/spot dodge, that's why multishining ***** characters like Falcon or Sheik (they usually try to get out with a roll or a Nair OOS) xP

 

[Beat!]

Multishining is dangerous against GaW

He can

UP-B OOS

*gasp*

 

[AvengerAngel]

GaW counters Falco because he negates his projectile game (down B) and he easily out-spams him (damn those sausages). It's sooooooo broken D:

 

[unknown522]

well people say its difficult for falco because

- he cant get away with typical shield pressure shenanigans because upB oos > pressure
- he gets edgeguarded well by samus, and edgeguarding her isn't the easiest
- her general character is annoying. Strong CC, wavedash shenanigans. Certain aspects of her character make her difficult to combo, like sometimes she gets the body contortion on the dair and then your shine misses and then you eat a dsmash.

Granted all these things can be worked around. But samus isn't bad enough that you can just flat out beat her like you can a lot of the lower tiers. and the better samus mains have been saying samus falco is 50/50 for years now so there obviously a reason for that.

I dunno who said those 3 points, but the 2nd and 3rd ones are definitely not true.

Fresh shine causes ten frames of shield stun.

Falco and the target are in hitlag for 5 frames, then 2 frames have to pass before you can jump out of the shine, 5 frames of prejump, second shine happens on the sixth frame. Basically, if you assume frame perfection and no staling on the first shine, they have 2 actionable frames before the second shine happens.

to add: with this frame math, you actually beat any action they do oos (including roll/sidestep on most chars).

edit: oh avenger angel already said it. My bad.

 

[Battlecow]

with a little time to go until Apex I feel pretty good but not where I'd like to be. If I prepare hard enough I believe I still have some shot at winning though.

You gotta convince Mango to sandbag. I'm dead serious; the area in which you're lacking is your off-the-court mindgames. **** with him like he did you with the four-color theorem. Convince him that he should quit smash and get a job. As long as you win, it doesn't matter

 

[Bones0]

Damn, that is actually a pro mindgame. I think if you told him to just sandbag, he'd try really hard and do worse because he isn't used to playing in tryhard mode. MINDGAMEZ!

 

[Divinokage]

Lmao, I wonder about that, Mango is retardedly good at making you believe the hell he wants. =P

 

[ruhtraeel]

what do I do if Ganon has just ran up to my face and shffled a fair at me， my current solution is run back and laser into crossover but it doesnt work without any room like beside the ledge
Im thinking usmash oos but there has to be something safer

Im just scared of thay jab especially against the ledge

also what if marth has you pinned against the ledge

 

[JPOBS]

I dunno who said those 3 points, but the 2nd and 3rd ones are definitely not true.

i said them. i find her hard to edgeguard (harder relatively speaking than say...sheik).

And whats wrong about her general character physics being bs sometimes?

 

[Pi]

what do I do if Ganon has just ran up to my face and shffled a fair at me， my current solution is run back and laser into crossover but it doesnt work without any room like beside the ledge
Im thinking usmash oos but there has to be something safer

Im just scared of thay jab especially against the ledge

also what if marth has you pinned against the ledge

how is ganon running up in your face? lol
ganon doesn't get to play his char vs. falco


yea falco can't edgeguard samus

 

[crush]

I jusst shoot her bombs and then ledgehop bair regrab spam.

 

[Divinokage]

how is ganon running up in your face? lol
ganon doesn't get to play his char vs. falco


yea falco can't edgeguard samus

Let's just pretend this didn't exist.

 

[Druggedfox]

2 frames they're not in shieldstun? Alright, thanks a bunch I'll edit that, though I don't think my stance on how to use multishine has really changed

 

[Warhawk]

Fresh shine causes ten frames of shield stun.

Falco and the target are in hitlag for 5 frames, then 2 frames have to pass before you can jump out of the shine, 5 frames of prejump, second shine happens on the sixth frame. Basically, if you assume frame perfection and no staling on the first shine, they have 2 actionable frames before the second shine happens.

Can they really do anything then? Spot dodge maybe, but then aren't they still vulnerable to charged upsmash out of your reflector or whatever you decide to do on the lag from their spot dodge?

 

[unknown522]

i said them. i find her hard to edgeguard (harder relatively speaking than say...sheik).

And whats wrong about her general character physics being bs sometimes?

whoops, read that wrong. Comment 2 is not true (dunno how I read that as 2 seperate lines). Her edgeguarding on falco isn't that good (cuz she can't cover all his options due to a slow jump) and in turn, it is pretty easy to edgeguard her, cuz her recover is bad. Slow, but bad.


/awaits samus players to talk about how her recovery is good and some bs discussion about mindgames or something stupid like that.

 

[Divinokage]

She can't? All she needs is either Up tilt, low angled ftilt.. or perhaps grab the ledge into sex kick, or just dropzone sex kick. Pretty sure that can cover all Falco's recovery options if she guesses correctly. Hell even missiles or blaster.

 

[Wake]

I think "if she guesses correctly" is the key phrase there.

 

[Divinokage]

I mean Falco is not THAT hard to edgeguard. Oh ya I forgot a few other moves but you get my point =P

 

[JPOBS]

having to guess =/= option coverage.

 

[Divinokage]

Well that's how I usually edgeguard people with any character, I just wait until they start something and then I edgeguard. You can't do the move that covers the most ground all the time lol.

 

[Pi]

@unknown falco edgeguards vs samus suck
foxes are p good
marths suck

i don't know what you think you can do vs. her grapple but i'm pretty sure i have counters too it


p.s. MM me at apex

 

[ZoSo]

Nope, he's right. Perfect multishines leave the opponent without shield stun for 2 frames, but it doesn't really matter. If you're in their shield you'll probably catch them while they're trying to buffer something OOS like roll/spot dodge, that's why multishining ***** characters like Falcon or Sheik (they usually try to get out with a roll or a Nair OOS) xP

to add: with this frame math, you actually beat any action they do oos (including roll/sidestep on most chars).

edit: oh avenger angel already said it. My bad.

Technically they have three actionable frames, but the shine happens on that third frame, so you'd have to be doing an invincible one-frame move to not get hit by it, which basically narrows it down to another shine and moves that are invincible frame-1 like Samus and Bowser's up-Bs.

Spot dodges are invincible frame 2, so that's still an option, but if we're assuming perfect gameplay, Falco still has plenty of options to punish the recovery on the spot dodge. Rolls are invincible frame 4, so if you try to buffer a roll after the first shine, you'll get hit, but again this is assuming frame perfection and no staling on the shine, so under real conditions it's probably a good option.

2 frames they're not in shieldstun? Alright, thanks a bunch I'll edit that, though I don't think my stance on how to use multishine has really changed

Nor do I think it should! You have the right idea, the numbers were just inaccurate.

One time I was playing Brookman and I had him shielding with his back to the edge, so I naired and shined to push him off then JC shined to pop him up, daired for the kill. I think he said something along the lines of, "Dirty, dirty double shines."

 

[Bones0]

Kage, I would like to hear your input on the Ganon fair -> jab ****. It really is scary as **** having my shield get annihilated by a fair, then I don't want to move cause jab knocks me off at quite a low angle, but just shielding obviously doesn't help either cause then he hits me with something stronger (spaced ftilt, etc.).

also what if marth has you pinned against the ledge

When Marth has you by the ledge:
- Don't shield. Marths are always looking for that grab, and fthrow dtilt is a *****.
- Don't roll or spot dodge. Marth love dash dancing to bait those reactions so they can grab. If they grab a spot dodge, you'll get fthrow dtilted like above, and if you roll behind, you get dthrown which is just as bad, if not worse.

Obviously sometimes you will have to shield if they just feel like fsmashing/aerialing, but try to do it as close to reaction as possible, and once you do shield, you have to reevaluate the situation. If they fsmashed or aerialed your shield, you can shield grab if they spaced it poorly or WD OoS onto the ledge and work from there. If they DIDN'T attack your shield, you basically have to guess what to do next. If they just read ANY of your OoS movements with an attack, you typically die. The don't roll/spotdodge rule is still in effect as they are usually watching for it even MORE now that they have you in shield, but if they are spaced a bit too far and you can see them committing to a grab, then sometimes you can get away with it.

So with those less useful options covered, your best options left are:

- Attack.
Since most Marths are used to people reverting to defensive options as soon as they get them by the ledge, they often won't be expecting you to simply rush them. It sounds a lot like a high risk, high reward scenario, but from what I can tell, it's not too far from how you usually need to space vs. Marth. Dashing away from Marth is pretty much always risky, so losing that option shouldn't affect your decision making too much when it comes to deciding when/how you should approach. When you do approach from the ledge, just keep in mind everything you usually do. Overshoot your aerial to make sure they don't just dash/WD back punish.

- Full hop.
Full hopping as soon as you get put by the ledge forces Marth to do a lot of guess work. He can't reliably double jump and hit you out of a FH, so you can really force him to guess whether or not you will land on the top platform, side platform, or drop through either towards the stage. I would highly recommend being comfortable with ledge cancelled Phantasms so you can get away from the ledge even faster. Even if Marth expects you to Phantasm, there isn't much he can do about it except for YS if you do it properly.

- Get on the ledge.
From the ledge, you can abuse your invincibility to do a few things:

1. Phantasm towards the center of the stage or ledge cancel on a platform (would only recommend ledge cancelling on DL because of easy tippers unless you can confirm they're way too close to the ledge to still reach the edge of the platform).

2. LHDL. Only useful when they are far enough away that you can be sure you won't get dtilted, fsmashed, countered, etc. I use it virtually every time they aren't within range because it's so good, but virtually never use it when they are in range because it uses your DJ and almost any option they use will lead to a stock loss.

3. Ledge dash. Ledge dash negates worries you have when LHDLing. Ideally you will want to just attack or grab out of the ledge dash, but if they are just swinging at a lot of your ledge options, shield grabbing can be a bit safer, but it's not really necessary once you get good at ledge dashes.

4. Waveland. Wavelanding onto plats is mad good, but no one uses it, which is especially weird because Mango was using it like crazy with his Fox at Genesis. You have less invincibility with this, but I just shield drop out of this so idk what I can recommend without that. lol I guess just shield and try to jump OoS when he hits you or just jump as soon as you land? Idk.

5. Fire Bird stall. Accomplishes nothing, obviously, but it typically baits whatever reaction they were going to do, and you can often just punish off of that. Like I will grab the ledge, Fire Bird stall immediately, and they will whiff a dtilt giving me free reign to just LH dair and combo them across the stage, or if I see them counter, I can regular getup for an easy grab. This stall is also really underused, but it can be risky if you don't do it quickly and the Marth is right by the ledge so their dtilt reaches you. Not the kind of thing you can abuse, but definitely worthy of a solid mixup.

 

[Niko45]

No character in the game "covers" all of Falco's recovery options.

 

[Bones0]

No character in the game "covers" all of Falco's recovery options.

Marth's dthrow run off neutral B almost does. It hits full DI away -> DJ back, and you can reverse the neutral B on reaction. Only thing it doesn't cover is immediately DJ dair, which, to be perfectly honest, is a ****ty excuse for an "option." Every time my partner does it I am like "WTF there is no way this is going to hit" and then it hits and I ***** and moan about how dumb I am for going by the ledge all the time.

 

[Niko45]

Dj air dodge should work. DI in on the throw and wall jump might work, and if not, just wall tech. What's wrong with DJ dair? Full combos/KO off a missed edgeguard sounds ok in my book.

Anyway, Marth is one of the characters that comes the closest, but he still has to pure guess on something like a well spaced shorten vs non shorten illusion (no, double jab doesn't work).

The moment I accepted that you can't cover every spacie option at once and started edgeguarding more off baits and reads my results got wayyyyy better.

 

[Bones0]

You can't DJ airdodge. Neutral B comes out soon enough that if you air dodge to avoid it you won't make it back to the stage. And yeah, you can wall tech if you are at a high enough %.

What's wrong with DJ dair is that you die if they do anything other than chase you off immediately...


But yeah, overall I agree. I did say "almost" covers every option.

 

[JPOBS]

Anyway, Marth is one of the characters that comes the closest, but he still has to pure guess on something like a well spaced shorten vs non shorten illusion (no, double jab doesn't work).

Why doesn't double jab work?
you time the first one to hit his regular side-b then just do it again to hit the shorten, no?

 

[Bones0]

If you space the shorten properly, you'll grab the ledge before he can get off another jab.

 

[Beat!]

Don't be on your sadmobile when edge guarding Falco and everything should work out fine.

 

[twizzlerj]

I'm on my sadmobile when getting shield pressured by falco.

 

[Pi]

I'm on my sadmobile when getting shield pressured by falco.

sept ur tires are popped and ur engine is blown and ur not going anywhere till the **** train that is falco knocks you off the road

 

[twizzlerj]

sept ur tires are popped and ur engine is blown and ur not going anywhere till the **** train that is falco knocks you off the road

my sadmobile needs to get repaired if its possible.

 

[crush]

Nice figurative language.

 

[Druggedfox]

Run off fair if falco is shortening to grab the ledge btw, its just hard to remwmber/do.... Right PP?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You gotta convince Mango to sandbag. I'm dead serious; the area in which you're lacking is your off-the-court mindgames. **** with him like he did you with the four-color theorem. Convince him that he should quit smash and get a job. As long as you win, it doesn't matter

I've actually thought a lot about this, but for me personally I want to win when he's at his best(with the not playing right now anyway). I'm willing to put up with the crud I get in the meantime.

what do I do if Ganon has just ran up to my face and shffled a fair at me， my current solution is run back and laser into crossover but it doesnt work without any room like beside the ledge
Im thinking usmash oos but there has to be something safer

Im just scared of thay jab especially against the ledge

also what if marth has you pinned against the ledge

If Ganon is right on top of me and is doing that Fair Jab thing, then I just roll away. If the jab is well spaced I try to WD OOS in between jabs(pretty sure that works). If that doesn't work then I'll shield DI away like I'm going to roll and if they move then I either shoot them or roll or get on a platform or wavedash...just different stuff depending on my % how aggressive the Ganon player is, how many stocks we have, etc etc. try not to just have ONE answer for every situation though because if/when they adapt that makes life hard if you aren't ready. If you're against the edge and don't wanna roll away it's better to just shield DI to fall to the edge because Ganons LOVE that roll into them lol. Plus jab lag let's them react to the roll.

If Marth has you pinned then this is a different situation depending on my %, his %, stage, exactly how pinned I am, the type of Marth I'm fighting, and what conditioning things have been established.

If I just want to speak generally here, then a solid thought is trying to establish laser control. It still works even if you don't have much stage, just not as effectively of course lol.

If Marth is "too close" for you to laser then the game becomes a matter of spacing and, much more importantly, timing(something I should also realllllly write about guh). Ideally you don't want to become reactive, but in that type of situation you don't have much choice. If you don't have your shield up but don't want to laser, then try to dash/WD towards Marth and see if you can take stage. Often, Marth is looking for a defensive reaction to punish here. Sometimes Marth is just planning on swinging/grabbing though, and for that you just need to learn the other player. If Marth wants to swing then you should CC/shield/roll/jump accordingly(depends on the move and spacing). If Marth wants to grab then you should either hit him or dodge obviously.

It's a tough situation and isn't meant to be won all that often because it makes you unable to be proactive(it doesn't make you reactive though because I don't think one can feasibly react to Marth's options when pinned at the ideal range against the edge). Remembering to trip up Marth and keep him afraid of your options or taking as much space to work with as you can is always good because it opens up potential for more options, and more options means more chances to escape or reverse the situation on Marth.

Run off fair if falco is shortening to grab the ledge btw, its just hard to remwmber/do.... Right PP?

posilutely


also that sadmobile is pretty darn funny LOL


also also druggedfox I mostly agree with your shield pressure post but I wanted to nitpick a few things. I'm really hoping I do that sometime over the weekend if I don't do it tonight because it is a very informative post.