PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Mogwai]

I love that feeling in Melee.

Then I have to play JMan or Hax in the next round and they ruin me

kits are too good at this ****ing game.

 

[Battlecow]

i was fine w/ him taking my 20$ it's not a huge deal and don't expect charity from anyone

so if u wanna MM me at apex i'm down i'll have just as much trouble accepting ur cash as u would mine

bones u 2

I don't play MM's I know I'll lose

And I know I'd lose because I don't play melee, so...

 

[Pi]

I don't play MM's I know I'll lose

And I know I'd lose because I don't play melee, so...

oh i wasn't sure, i see you offering your opinions on a bunch of melee stuff figured you'd might know a thing or two
guess not my b

 

[Battlecow]

I try not to offer opinions on anything gameplay related

mostly I'm just a fan.

 

[GooeyBanana]

So...Falco's really fun =P Couple questions though.

Ok, let's say I dair/nair them and a shine followup won't work right after because they SDI'd away or something like that. Do you guys usually just jab/dtilt/dash dance/maybe through out a smash instead?

I'm kind of having difficulty laser dropping =S If I'm understanding correctly...don't you just roll your control stick lightly from forward to downward?

I'm not really used to using dash attack because Falcon's is kind...meh...and Peach's you use about 80% of the match. Falco's kinda seems like the medium to that. What uses do you all use it for?

I'm poop at shield pressure =S Not really sure on how this whole hit their shield as low as possible thing works because I see people hit the opponent's shield high sometimes and still score a shine before the opponent grabs. Is it because they're using Falco's auto cancelled SH bair? Speaking of which, I've seen nair on shield to grab work a couple of times...is that only because they conditioned their opponent to stay in shield by punishing them with shine enough so that the grab would work?

Falco's too fun to turn down xP

 

[Jake13]

^

If they sdi the dair and you've already commited to shine, jc grab out of shine will catch them before they can react

Start off the isai drop (drop lasers by just walking forward a few frames and then drop. You'll eventually get the hang of it to where you don't have to walk. But yeah its forward to down on the stick.

I use dash attack when its the only move I think will hit them/I make a fast tech reaction/I miss the short hop for a nair LOL

If you hit the shield high they can grab you (esp if you don't ff on time), so if you're still getting the shine, then they're trying to grab or something oos. Hit it low so they can't grab. I'm pretty sure AC bair on shield can be grabbed if not spaced well.

And nair to grab only works I they don't realize you aren't going to shine and stay in shield. If they know tho you'll get punished. I like aeriel to grab as a mix up, but prefer aeriel to shine to jc grab as a safer option.

Falco just has soooo many options :D

 

[SuperMatt]

dair to d-tilt is one of the better options you can do with falco, even if they dont SDI the dair

about laser dropping...its nothing fancy, you're just going from landing to walking and then dropping, dont do any fancy rolling stuff just land while holding a direction, falco will walk, and now you can drop any time you want

 

[Jake13]

Dair to dtilt is like the worst option*

If they DI away, they're too far to combo (at mid to high) if they di up or in they'll be to high to hit (mid to high), and if you miss or get shielded talk about laaaaaaaag

*there are no bad options just bad times to use them

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, "worst" in this case is better described as "the least ****".

It's one of the better options in some situations though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Are you joking? dtilt has awesome combo potential... they can't DI as far away as shine and it has more hitstun

 

[Beat!]

^That was at Jake, right?

Right?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

That was to all the nay sayers of the world

 

[JPOBS]

word^
dair dtilt is the cats pajamas.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So...Falco's really fun =P Couple questions though.

Ok, let's say I dair/nair them and a shine followup won't work right after because they SDI'd away or something like that. Do you guys usually just jab/dtilt/dash dance/maybe through out a smash instead?

I'm kind of having difficulty laser dropping =S If I'm understanding correctly...don't you just roll your control stick lightly from forward to downward?

I'm not really used to using dash attack because Falcon's is kind...meh...and Peach's you use about 80% of the match. Falco's kinda seems like the medium to that. What uses do you all use it for?

I'm poop at shield pressure =S Not really sure on how this whole hit their shield as low as possible thing works because I see people hit the opponent's shield high sometimes and still score a shine before the opponent grabs. Is it because they're using Falco's auto cancelled SH bair? Speaking of which, I've seen nair on shield to grab work a couple of times...is that only because they conditioned their opponent to stay in shield by punishing them with shine enough so that the grab would work?

Falco's too fun to turn down xP

Well, that kind of depends on percent and character, but I like Dair to uptilt and Dair to Dair a lot. At higher percents, mix in smashes with stuff they want to DI away like Fair so they will die sooner.

Yeah Isai drop lasering is slight forward then downward then laser.

Dash attack can be used to punish lag, combo from laser, or pop someone up that missed the tech or you tech chase with it to set up for Dair. There's probably more but I don't remember.

You need to learn when you can throw out an aerial at the highest point while FF'ing that will still be safe on shield from shieldgrabs. AC bair is more for spacing to intimidate them.
Nair to grab isn't safe at all frame-wise, but yeah you're right it can work if they stay in shield(lots of people try to move after they see the shine so it's a decent mixup).

word^
dair dtilt is the cats pajamas.

snazzy pajamas

 

[Bones0]

I would suggest nair-shine-grab as opposed to just nair-grab.

 

[Winston]

if they have really good timing, nair-shine-grab might be less likely to succeed than nair-grab, depending on their habits.

but yea in general nair shine grab ofc

 

[Bones0]

I mean, the only way out of nair-shine-grab (assuming shine isn't staled) is to buffer spot dodge, which no one does.

 

[Winston]

Fox realistically is able to shine oos between the shine and the grab.

 

[Little England]

lol nevermind.

 

[Bones0]

Mother ****ing Fox.

 

[ShroudedOne]

That 4-frame BS.

 

[Fågelholken]

I was playing 2 v 2 the other day, and one of the opponents, who was a Samus player, shot me with a fully charged B. I had 120% was off stage in the air, but I wasn't even close to dying. Like, I flew half the way I should've.

Any idea what happened? Is there any form of DI that could possibly make that save? Or was it something else? It wasn't a phantom hit, I flew away, just like twice as slow as normal.

 

[mers]

When they SDI the dair so you can't shine, grab is ****ing great (or turnaround utilt but that's not exciting). Falco's grab is so ****ing good.

 

[Bones0]

I was playing 2 v 2 the other day, and one of the opponents, who was a Samus player, shot me with a fully charged B. I had 120% was off stage in the air, but I wasn't even close to dying. Like, I flew half the way I should've.

Any idea what happened? Is there any form of DI that could possibly make that save? Or was it something else? It wasn't a phantom hit, I flew away, just like twice as slow as normal.

It might not have been fully charged. Maybe it was the strength level right before the strongest shot. If you SDI'd it, you would have noticed your character going really far, but since you said it was slow, I would guess that it was just not fully charged.

 

[Fågelholken]

I guess that makes the most sense. But I could swear it was fully charged, like I saw him blinking (as in fully charged) and I knew it was coming so I just prepped to DI it.


Can't you make computers DI to insane amounts? There's no way a human could accidentally pull it off somehow? I've heard a story about Armada getting hit by knee off stage at well over 100% and not nearly dying once before. Maybe it was just an Armada fanboy lol. I guess only he can confirm...

 

[Winston]

When they SDI the dair so you can't shine, grab is ****ing great (or turnaround utilt but that's not exciting). Falco's grab is so ****ing good.

????

Falco's utilt has like twice as good a reward as his grab, doesn't it?

 

[Bones0]

I guess that makes the most sense. But I could swear it was fully charged, like I saw him blinking (as in fully charged) and I knew it was coming so I just prepped to DI it.



Can't you make computers DI to insane amounts? There's no way a human could accidentally pull it off somehow? I've heard a story about Armada getting hit by knee off stage at well over 100% and not nearly dying once before. Maybe it was just an Armada fanboy lol. I guess only he can confirm...

Oh wait, you said it was 2v2, right? Did you hit your teammate as you flew through the air? Or was it on Yoshi's Story where you might have DI'd off of a Shy Guy? Only other explanation would be you guys accidentally changed the damage ratio... or his charge shot was really staled? Idk if that's even possible. lol

????

Falco's utilt has like twice as good a reward as his grab, doesn't it?

Yeah, I was confused by that comment as well.

Also, I was thinking about Fox shining OoS vs. shine grab, and I feel like it shouldn't be possible. Late dair-shine-early dair is frame safe, and grab is way faster than the dair (way faster in terms of Melee, that is; grab takes 8 frames; dair takes 10). I don't see how Fox could shine OoS if you do it properly (Shine has 9 frames of shield stun). In all likelihood, I'm probably forgetting something. >___>

Frame # - Falco / Fox
1 - Shine / Hitlag
2 - Shine / Hitlag
3 - Shine / Hitlag
4 - Shine / Hitlag
5 - Jump Squat / Shield Stun
6 - Grab / Shield Stun
7 - Grab / Shield Stun
8 - Grab / Shield Stun
9 - Grab / Shield Stun
10 - Grab / Shield Stun
11 - Grab / Shield Stun
12 - Grab hits / Shield Stun
13 - Grab hits / Shield Stun

 

[Battlecow]

Surprise half knockback in 64 would mean an accidental last minute CC, is that possible in melee?

 

[Winston]

@ Bones

Hmm, you're probably right that Fox can't shine oos vs. it if it's done well.

Shinegrab definitely doesn't keep them in continuous shieldstun until the grab hits, though. Looking at Phanna's shield pressure data (http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2690107&postcount=22) there should be something like 3 frames not in stun before the grab hits?

 

[Pi]

^maybe, but not applicable in this case

I had 120% was off stage in the air

damn this thread is poppin

this post was @battlecow

 

[mers]

????

Falco's utilt has like twice as good a reward as his grab, doesn't it?

Generally yes, but I think Falco's grab and the ensuing mixups have a ton of psychological value. Getting inside your opponents head can sometimes be more valuable than the stronger punish. IDK. I like to mix it up I guess.

 

[unknown522]

bones is correct about shine-grab.

Also, currently chilling with BAM, PKM, Kage, and Chesterr

 

[Pi]

^stream ittt so i can watchhh

 

[Bones0]

@ Bones

Hmm, you're probably right that Fox can't shine oos vs. it if it's done well.

Shinegrab definitely doesn't keep them in continuous shieldstun until the grab hits, though. Looking at Phanna's shield pressure data (http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2690107&postcount=22) there should be something like 3 frames not in stun before the grab hits?

Well his actually says 10 frames of shield stun, whereas I got 9 from SDM, and JC grab hits on frame 9. Idk what to tell ya because I've always thought you could buffer spot dodge out, but maybe that's just because it's hard to shine-grab frame perfect...

 

[TheDekuNut]

perfect fox can shine OoS between perfect falco's shine grab but he has to be "perfect." bones your frame stuff it a bit off. for instance falco's" jump squat" starts at frame 8 and fox's shield stun ends a lot earlier too. the reason its still really close is fox needs to spend 3 frames jumping before he can shine.

IRL fox can easily buffer a jump to escape falco's shine grab. shining OoS is a battle of who can be more frame perfect.

also stale moves can change stuff too

 

[Rubyiris]

i pretty much only dair shine bad people, and shields now. Even then not so much any more. dair grab is guaranteed vs no shield. dair grab is a legit mixup vs the people trying to react to/anticipate the shine, as well as a semi-legit mix up to crouch cancel abusers.

generally, the more i dair grab and nair grab in tournaments, the better i do overall. I have a better neutral game than most of Melee's player base, so just taking advantage of falco's grab game, and good stage positioning, I can kind of just take a mid-paced control of the game.

of course, I like to be a flashy ******, so a lot of time time I forget how to play this game and smash my face against the controller in an attempt to look awesome.

also for clarification, shine grab will miss people who like to ASDI down and away, then JC grab, or dsmash (Peach). If you omit the shine, you can beat them. Especially if you have port priority.

 

[Strong Badam]

Fox realistically is able to shine oos between the shine and the grab.

why do you say "realistically" when speaking about super theory bros.?

 

[TheDekuNut]

ah yah strong bad is here. how close am i lol? theory bros is a fun game but i prefer melee

 

[Strong Badam]

Well his actually says 10 frames of shield stun, whereas I got 9 from SDM, and JC grab hits on frame 9. Idk what to tell ya because I've always thought you could buffer spot dodge out, but maybe that's just because it's hard to shine-grab frame perfect...

their shieldstun values include hitlag. fresh shine has 5 frames of shieldstun.
shine hit (frame 1 of shine)
burn 1 (can't JC frame 2)
burn 1 (can't JC frame 3)
jump 1 (JC frame 4)
garb 7
shinegarb is -5, fox has 1 frame leeway to be gay. buffer roll/spotdodge way easier.

bones: use my ****ing excel, stop using SDM/phanna shieldstun values. they're wrong unless you account for hitlag.

 

[Bones0]

their shieldstun values include hitlag. fresh shine has 5 frames of shieldstun.
shine hit (frame 1 of shine)
burn 1 (can't JC frame 2)
burn 1 (can't JC frame 3)
jump 1 (JC frame 4)
garb 7
shinegarb is -5, fox has 1 frame leeway to be gay. buffer roll/spotdodge way easier.

I was going to add hitlag and shield stun values into the hitbox thread; do you have a recommended format for doing so that would optimize how easy it is to interpret? Like it seems like it would make more sense to say "4 frames of hitlag, 5 frames of shield stun" as opposed to "9 frames of shield stun (includes 4 frames of hitlag)." Also, will the invincibility kick in fast enough for buffered rolls/spot dodges to even avoid a perfect shine grab?

Frame # - Falco / Fox
1 - Shine / Hitlag
2 - Shine / Hitlag
3 - Shine / Hitlag
4 - Shine / Hitlag
5 - Jump Squat / Shield Stun
6 - Grab / Shield Stun
7 - Grab / Shield Stun
8 - Grab / Shield Stun
9 - Grab / Shield Stun
10 - Grab / Jump Squat
11 - Grab / Shine
12 - Grab Hits (too late)

Is that correct? Melee is so damn complicated. Why can't I just ****ing understand this game already. Holy ****.