PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Strong Badam]

too much effort, & who makes such a short post and then edits it 2 yrs later? not mother****ing Strong Bad

 

[Winston]

leffen's kind of abrasive sometimes
but you're wrong. shield DI forward + proper grab timing beats spaced shine -> fadeback whatever (excluding wavedash back).
even multishine can be shieldgrabbed if they keep doing it mindlessly with shield DI

What? no way. Are you saying you can shieldgrab a shine -> fadeback immediate aerial? It doesn't even seem close to possible.

Or are you talking about just spacing the aerial at max range while still staying on the shield?

 

[Wenbobular]

Today I did a shinegrab so slow Winston shieldgrabbed it
I was utterly depressed

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

ur biggest problem is you can't deal with my rolls

besides that your shield pressure alternated between slow and ****ing slow

decent technical players make the mistake of going way too fast which I'm completely used to

but too slow is pretty bad too

-s2j

Well how would I go about speeding it up more? Tighten up tech skill or something?

 

[tarheeljks]

i think it's more about mixing up the rhythm than going a specific speed


edit: but yeah just mash the buttons faster to go faster i guess lol

 

[Tekk]

Ahhh lil' skinny luleff
superiority complex so cute

 

[0Room]

i think it's more about mixing up the rhythm than going a specific speed


edit: but yeah just mash the buttons faster to go faster i guess lol

I think this is more or less it
Yes there's speed to it but at the same time think of fox's nair->shine pressure

Sometimes do it at the right time
Sometimes late
sometimes early

There's a set limit to how fast you can go
So it's more bout the rhythm
But it's only about the rhythm once you get to the fastest speed
At least that's the way I interpret it

 

[leffen]

Ahhh lil' skinny luleff
superiority complex so cute

Oh big ol' Jigglypuff-shaped Tekk.

For me to have a superiority complex you and/or Druggedfox had to be right/superior, which you clearly, are not.

 

[Druggedfox]

I never said you could do infinitely ungrabbable pressure, strongbad. Even with shield DI, depending on how you do it you can achieve ungrabbable pressure in two "Sweetspot" ranges. You can either be inside of them and a bit above the grab hitbox, or fully outside of it (horizontally) and a bit above the top "corner" of the circle (hitbox). Yes they can shield DI, but in one case they'd have to shield DI in, in the other they'd have to shield DI away, not to mention that it would probably take multiple iterations plus inhuman timing (consistently, anyway; its certainly possible) to actually get a grab off.

 

[Strong Badam]

you can be in those places but not for long. you have to eventually come down. dat gravity.

 

[leffen]

and add stale moves and you have just as hard time performing the pressure as grabbing it(since you can react with grab, you cant react when you shield pressure).

 

[Strong Badam]

cant always react and grab with proper mixups, but yea. shield pressure is harder than getting out of shield pressure.
iirc moves dont stale when they hit shields.

 

[leffen]

You use dair/shine/nair A LOT vs Falcon so they will be stale.

Shine->earliest dair has a 6 frame start from the beginning and getting hit by a early aerial isnt that bad anyway. Shield DI a tiny bit so doubleshine wont hit and so that early dair->shine wont hit =win.
Wait if he ever does waveshine/early dair and grab it on reaction/wd oos or smth.
Its often a 50/50 mixup, not even fkn close to 100-0 lol.

 

[oliman]

so do any of the higher up falco players consider falco to have any disadvantageous mu's? id think maybe jigglypuff and probably samus

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Some people think that Peach and Marth have advantageous match-ups against Falco.

Definitely not Puff or Samus, IMO.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Nah, I don't think Peach does. In my opinion, anyways. I think it's some arbitrary BS like 51.5:48.5 in Falco's favor. =P

 

[leffen]

Honestly, I can see falco losing to Fox, Marth, Sheik, Peach, Puff. I dont see him winning any of those at least tbh.

 

[oliman]

overall i think (at my level of play) falco does bad against samus, a little marth, and maybe peach, though my matches with shroudedone have made me think its a little in falco's favor. should i just not approach samus or something? all my approaches are easily shut down except really well spaced nairs n bairs, and recovering is a real pain sometimes

 

[Bones0]

I wish matchup ratio discussions would just disappear. It's not like johning about a bad matchup will make a loss seem more "okay," and it often just leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy where people lose because they go into the set with the mindset that they are at a disadvantage, or on the other side, they assume they can play lazily because the matchup is considered easy.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, no, these numbers are here to give us a perspective of how a character *theoretically* does against another. I do agree that these numbers are often used to validate why one doesn't win (matchup johns), but I think that they help us put things into perspective a little better.

 

[EWC]

I've never really liked the idea of matchup ratios; It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to try to encapsulate something so rich and deep and subtle with a single number. Even if they are just meant to encode the theoretical win rate at high level play between roughly even players, there's just too much variability for it to be really meaningful.

 

[Strong Badam]

i think he might lose to puff, and maybe peach. otherwise not really.

 

[EWC]

Falco definitely doesn't lose to puff. He outmaneuvers her too hard and is better at the spaced pressure poking game than she is. The only thing that makes it hard is that you sometimes randomly die for no reason, but these situations can be avoided if you're adequately careful.

Peach I'm less sure about, but still pretty sure falco wins, for similar reasons. Difference is that peach can actually force space control with properly positioned floats instead of relying on falco going to the wrong place.

 

[Bones0]

Well, no, these numbers are here to give us a perspective of how a character *theoretically* does against another. I do agree that these numbers are often used to validate why one doesn't win (matchup johns), but I think that they help us put things into perspective a little better.

Hardly. There are so many flaws to the whole system.

1. Matchups don't really matter all that much. Obviously this is subjective, but I think people need to accept the fact that it really doesn't matter what character you pick. Your skill level and matchup experience is going to get you the win nearly every time before the matchup itself even comes into play.

2. Matchups refer to the metagame, and how matchups are played vary significantly from one skill level to another. Fox vs. Peach on Mango and Armada's level isn't even comparable to players outside the top 32 in the world. Melee's skill gap is so prominent, any sort of matchup variations between skill levels becomes borderline unique to each player.

3. The system itself has no solid foundation for determining ratios. It seems like everyone started out with the theory that "With two equally skilled opponents, each number represents the percentage of matches that player will win," but it's devolved into "I feel like it should be this good/bad on a scale from 0-100." As far as I know, no one has bothered to actually collect data to see which characters have higher success rates than others. At least that system would be objective (albeit misleading due to the player pool being too small for that sort of analysis).

4. Matchups change. Falco vs. Fox used to be considered a cakewalk because of Falco's autocombos, but now it's up in the air who wins. Most games seem to flesh out in a couple of years, but Melee, being the deep ridiculousness that it is, shows no sign of slowing down its advances. I would argue that 2011 Melee is just as different from 2009 Melee as 2009 is from 2007. If not, it is at least fairly close. Point being, if matchups still have the capability to change, then WTF good does a matchup ratio do? It informs us of how hard a matchup is before people adapt? Jiggs is a perfect example of what happens when people try to live by matchup ratios. I heard so many ridiculous assumptions not more than a year ago claiming Jiggs was tied with Fox for best character and Fox was her only bad matchup. Once people stopped getting uthrown-rested and learned to avoid getting gimped by her, everyone swayed back to the side of Jiggs being simply "okay."

TLDR: Matchup ratios are based on past events, which really don't do any good in predicting the future because Melee is still evolving, and if you ask me, it's evolving further and further away from needing to use a good character and more towards the point where it doesn't matter who you use because so much of the game is not what you do, but how you do it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I can't really disagree with you, a lot of the game is how you play it, not what character you choose. But I do think that certain characters have advantages over others (at least, as the metagame stands today), and these numbers are supposed to reflect that. Of course, like you said, they are largely subjective and player dependent, but at the very least, they give us a starting point for matchup discussion, right? Even if tomorrow Kirby beats Fox, I think that the ratios would matter today, right?

Then again, some people (like myself) can envision things when they are confined to arbitrary definitions. Others don't need/dislike the number system, too.

 

[Druggedfox]

you can be in those places but not for long. you have to eventually come down. dat gravity.

When i'm not in those places, I have a move out; it allows you to do delayed pressure without the risk of getting grabbed. You SH into those ranges then when you're coming down you aerial... mango does it a decent bit, which is why sometimes you see people shieldgrab vs him and it simply whiffs. W/e though, I'll just keep doing it and you guys can... do other pressure >_>

 

[Niko45]

Yea all shield pressure can be grabbed. You guys should really just stop shield pressuring all together. :D

 

[tarheeljks]

1. Matchups don't really matter all that much. Obviously this is subjective, but I think people need to accept the fact that it really doesn't matter what character you pick. Your skill level and matchup experience is going to get you the win nearly every time before the matchup itself even comes into play.

i think few people are at the level of play where this is an accurate statement


edit: that said i do agree that people place too much emphasis on the difficulty of matchups in a vacuum but that is a very different statement than saying that the matchups don't matter

 

[FoxLisk]

i dont think falco has a clearly losing matchup. i think puff marth and fox are totally up in the air and the rest of the cast he has at least a slight advantage against.

against sheik i would say he loses on FoD, but just ****ing strike it and win game 1. against peach he loses on FD and its rough on YS, but just ****ing strike them and win game 1. no one else has a rightful claim to an even or better matchup against falco

 

[ph00tbag]

The problem with match-ups is that smashers aren't willing to accept that match-ups are by and large abstractions. The tendency for smashers to want to collect data is testament to their obsession with concreteness. Match-ups aren't data, and they don't come from data. They are the answer to the question, "given what of one character's options beats the other and vice versa, who has the greatest chance of guessing right often enough." In a sense, the match-up ratio actually tries to remove the human element by removing patterns and pattern recognition altogether.

Since a match-up ratio seeks to remove the human element, you can see why it makes no sense to base it on data, because that data involves humans. You can also tell why match-ups are also a pretty stupid john. If a Falcon player loses to a Sheik player, then one player lost to another. Captain Falcon didn't lose to Sheik in that case, because Falcon only loses to Sheik when the human element is removed. Add the human element, and it's more important who's holding the controller. This is what I mean when I say it's an abstraction; the only situation where a match-up ratio would be germane literally cannot obtain.

So then why are match-up ratios important? Well... they aren't really that important. They are pithy ways to say how much more you'll have to out-think your opponent by, but not much more. It's more important to know why the ratios are what they are, than to know what they are.

 

[Druggedfox]

Yea all shield pressure can be grabbed. You guys should really just stop shield pressuring all together. :D

lmao this is great

 

[FoxLisk]

The problem with match-ups is that smashers aren't willing to accept that match-ups are by and large abstractions. The tendency for smashers to want to collect data is testament to their obsession with concreteness. Match-ups aren't data, and they don't come from data. They are the answer to the question, "given what of one character's options beats the other and vice versa, who has the greatest chance of guessing right often enough." In a sense, the match-up ratio actually tries to remove the human element by removing patterns and pattern recognition altogether.

Since a match-up ratio seeks to remove the human element, you can see why it makes no sense to base it on data, because that data involves humans. You can also tell why match-ups are also a pretty stupid john. If a Falcon player loses to a Sheik player, then one player lost to another. Captain Falcon didn't lose to Sheik in that case, because Falcon only loses to Sheik when the human element is removed. Add the human element, and it's more important who's holding the controller. This is what I mean when I say it's an abstraction; the only situation where a match-up ratio would be germane literally cannot obtain.

So then why are match-up ratios important? Well... they aren't really that important. They are pithy ways to say how much more you'll have to out-think your opponent by, but not much more. It's more important to know why the ratios are what they are, than to know what they are.

if i hadnt watched m2k lose to mango for 3 years and then beat him sheik v falcon for liek 12 games straight i would be tempted to say you're right

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I'm in El Paso, TX, wrong side of the state as far as Melee is concerned.

omg dude my family lives there...
PM me and we can play

 

[Twin_A]

El Paso has some pretty decent melee players actually. Hit up Tetsuya, he took a legit tourney match off of Axe not too long ago. Love that guy.

As well you can always make the trip to Albuquerque, we have a decent melee scene here. Cruces, have you guys actually improved at all? Not to insult, actually curious.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

El Paso has some pretty decent melee players actually. Hit up Tetsuya, he took a legit tourney match off of Axe not too long ago. Love that guy.

As well you can always make the trip to Albuquerque, we have a decent melee scene here. Cruces, have you guys actually improved at all? Not to insult, actually curious.

idk abour rpg...
havent seen him since he quit school...

annnnd me... ummm idk... my techskill with fox has gotten better, but i dont have anyone to play with so i cant say if ive improved or not

 

[KingClubber]

http://twitch.tv/peefsmash/b/294796503

The awesome power of Falco's D-air

 

[Deleted member]

the only characters falco might have a losing match to are marths and seriously talented foxes. i'm sure players of both of those characters will deny it fervently.

 

[crush]

the only characters falco might have a losing match to are marths and seriously talented foxes. i'm sure players of both of those characters will deny it fervently.

I think marth beats falco and I play marth vs falco more than I play falco vs marth

Reverse johns.

Also I think falco beats peach puff sheik, and goes even with fox pretty much.

 

[0Room]

Falco has a losing MU vs Falcon


As far as MU numbers and stuff

It's more important to know why the ratios are what they are, than to know what they are.

I think this is the most important
As far as knowing the kind of battle you're facing, the numbers kind of let you know who has a lot of options against you [Falcon < Falco] as opposed to someone who doesn't [Falco > Roy]

Of course again the numbers are more subjective, and like anything in the world, it's up to people whether or not they live by them. It's obviously not a wonderful idea to do so but there is a clear purpose behind the MU numbers, and if people wanna john about them let them. It won't change anything, no matter how much they complain.
The thing is, you're kind of expecting us to already know everything about the game, while you clearly stated we don't know everything
So of course things are going to change as we figure them out

If we knew everything about the game it would be really disappointing and I don't think nearly as many of us would still be here.

 

[crush]

Lol 0room you clearly have not played a good Roy as falco. He gets a grab at 0 with you not knowing how to di correctly = your stock.