PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[0Room]

with you not knowing how to di correctly

 

[Sinji]

One disadvantage falco has over roy is roy's d-tilt>fsmash. I used to get ***** all the time lol.

Don't know anything else since roy isn't a exciting character any more.

 

[Roboturner]

My not so good friend always plays roy and I ALWAYS die from a forward smash at around 50%. ridiculous

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Well if they stupidly approach with Dair you can CC Dtilt > FSmash them at like, 20%, and then they're offstage.

 

[Dark Hart]

Roy can chaingrab right?

dtilt -> grab could potentially suck for Falco too

besides that... iunno lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Roy can chaingrab fox and falco. But it's slightly different than with marth I think given Roy has slightly stronger throws.

 

[SSBMLahti]

I beat all Matt07's characters therefore I am THE BEST Falco.

 

[ph00tbag]

Falco's dair should beat a good deal of Roy's options. Roy's only real options against it would be to bait Falco into misspacing it, or PS it and grab Falco.

For the record, you can't CC Falco's dair.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think your forgetting that Roy has a sword. Sword beats most of Falco's options. Roy gets wrecked for attacking with most of his moveset anyway.

 

[Wenbobular]

I think you're forgetting that said sword is made of paper and doesn't beat anything ...

 

[Dark Hart]

Falco's dair should beat a good deal of Roy's options. Roy's only real options against it would be to bait Falco into misspacing it, or PS it and grab Falco.

For the record, you can't CC Falco's dair.

but at 0% you can jump right as the dair hits you and you have no stun

James

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Falco's dair should beat a good deal of Roy's options. Roy's only real options against it would be to bait Falco into misspacing it, or PS it and grab Falco.

For the record, you can't CC Falco's dair.

Sorry I think I meant Nair.

 

[oliman]

i think falco goes a decent 45:55 against samus. marth is hard, but definitely beatable. i say its even against puff and peach, too.

 

[onionchowder]

Speaking of Roy, I beat some guy's Falco in dittoes for a few games, and then he switched to Roy and 2-stocked me twice >_>. He landed a lot of soft hits (e.g. Uair) and then grabbed me while I panic-shielded, and proceeded to do crazy Uthrow, Dtilt, Fsmash combos on me.

It's definitely not a cakewalk if you don't know the matchup.

 

[JPOBS]

I don't really see how falco loses to marth, at all. I think thats just a residual thought process from the days when m2k beat all spacies for free.

But then I watch that same m2k marth vs modern falcos like zhu, pp and mango and I just don't see it. Granted pp and mango are almost assuredly better players than m2k but still, I don't see any evidence to support marth > falco.

 

[strawhats]

and yet Taj was able to beat mango/sick pp. Also m2k really only loses to mango/pp. Yes I know Zhu has beaten m2k twice now, but compare that to the majority of their sets that haven't even been put on youtube and m2k has won most of those. Zhu is an excellent player, same with lambchops, and Shiz but mango and PP are better than m2k. M2k just doesn't know how to deal with modern day falco pressure. On the other hand m2k would probably tell you that he doesn't feel that he is in his prime with marth anymore(aka he still feels that his best days with marth are behind him ala 2007/2008).

I think it's gonna take a little tweaking and reworking of marth's metagame before we see why top players like pp/mango feel so strongly about marth's potential. Marth has the tools, It's just up to someone to learn all the MU's and rework the way marth is played (pushing beyond the m2k era)

With all that being said I feel if m2k actually practiced and focused on marth instead of worrying that sheik/fox are sometimes better options against tough MUs his marth would be even better than it is now.

 

[leffen]

@Druggedfox: Lol, you have to be kidding if you think mangos shieldpressure is ungrabable.

@JBOBS: Honestly, M2K sucks **** vs falco. If you just watch him, he NEVER beats lhdl (just counter=free kill) and has terrible reaction and **** (he lets ppl utilt his shield, NEVER powershields).

Other than that, falco hasnt beat Marth at all really. TAJ and Ice > PP vs M2K...

 

[Roboturner]

I think just gets boggled down too much by Falco's pressure. It's kind of depressing to watch a marth get absolutely destroyed by a quick Falco.

 

[Veetaak]

I feel that Fox and Marth may possibly have an edge vs Falco. I dont know about puff though, lack of exp. Sheik vs Falco in Pal I feel like is in Falcos favour and in NTSC from what Ive seen it looks to be in Sheiks favour by a little bit but I dont know how much better sheiks buff vs falcos buff in ntsc is. I doubt that Samus would win the matchup against Falco.

My keyboard is ****ed up atm, thats why I cant use fancy stuff so my text is all messed up

 

[ph00tbag]

Funny how after my post about how match-ups have nothing to do with which pros are beating which, people are trying to talk about Marth vs. Falco in terms of which pros are winning it.

 

[leffen]

Just answering JBOBS, but I dont agree 100% with you anyway.

 

[Divinokage]

Matchups don't really matter unless you know and have experience vs every situation possible. I'm personally tired of johning about matchups, that's why I say this.. there's always something you can do that work to your advantage, it's more about how to recognize patterns and abuse what the PLAYER is doing.

 

[Veetaak]

Funny how after my post about how match-ups have nothing to do with which pros are beating which, people are trying to talk about Marth vs. Falco in terms of which pros are winning it.

I think that is an important part when trying to figure out matchups within our current metagame. Theory bros will only get us so far. Because we wouldnt only want to be discussing matchups and tier lists unreachable by humans. You could be doing that but it would be irrelevant to the current state of the competetive scene

 

[bolt.]

I'm pretty sure falco vs marth is one of the most even match ups in the game. They both have amazing punishes on each other and tools to get around the other characters tools. It really comes down to the player in this one, not the matchup.

 

[strawhats]

@Druggedfox: Lol, you have to be kidding if you think mangos shieldpressure is ungrabable.

@JBOBS: Honestly, M2K sucks **** vs falco. If you just watch him, he NEVER beats lhdl (just counter=free kill) and has terrible reaction and **** (he lets ppl utilt his shield, NEVER powershields).

Other than that, falco hasnt beat Marth at all really. TAJ and Ice > PP vs M2K...

Ok taj, I understand, but why make such a bold cut and dry statement on behalf of Ice. Ice hasn't even played PP yet. Yes M2K sucks against falcos of PP/Mango's calibur, on the other hand you should experience playing m2k with falco. Unless you already have.

 

[crush]

I'm pretty sure falco vs marth is one of the most even match ups in the game. They both have amazing punishes on each other and tools to get around the other characters tools. It really comes down to the player in this one, not the matchup.

imo the most even matchup in the game is zelda vs ness. marth vs falco is not as close as zelda vs ness

 

[ph00tbag]

I think that is an important part when trying to figure out matchups within our current metagame. Theory bros will only get us so far. Because we wouldnt only want to be discussing matchups and tier lists unreachable by humans. You could be doing that but it would be irrelevant to the current state of the competetive scene

Match-up numbers are theory bros., though. That's what I'm saying. So if you don't want people to argue theory fighter, rather than spend your time arguing about which character beats which, talk about what you can do to beat the other character, and how you can avoid being predictable with it.

But if you want to argue about tier lists, and match-up numbers, be prepared to talk about theory. Because that's all that's relevant in those discussions.

 

[leffen]

Matchups don't really matter unless you know and have experience vs every situation possible. I'm personally tired of johning about matchups, that's why I say this.. there's always something you can do that work to your advantage, it's more about how to recognize patterns and abuse what the PLAYER is doing.

Matchups DO matter, ESPECIALLY at top level.
I have always loved how every top player say that matchups matter (M2K, Hax, Jman, Armada, Amsah, Axe, TAJ for example) and then all the mediocre players suddenly say that they it doesnt matter at "the highest level" when they hasnt even played at that level.
Armada vs Amsah, PAL. 4-0 sweep
Armada vs Amsah, NTSC. 2-4. A little matchup change, a huge outcome difference.

I know most Americans don't think it matters just because {[Insert poke about americans not ever traveling to europe+Pal version/Mango losing a very good matchup] but guess fkn what, it does matter. Do you guys really think Armadas young link suddenly started recognizing patters and abusing what Hbox was doing or is it the fkn character not having a retardedly hard matchup.

(Just because matchups matter doesnt mean people cant be terrible enough to make it look even when its not).


EDIT:@Strawhats. I ment like, Ice and Taj ****** every single falco means more than PP beating M2K.

 

[ShroudedOne]

The problem with match-ups is that smashers aren't willing to accept that match-ups are by and large abstractions. The tendency for smashers to want to collect data is testament to their obsession with concreteness. Match-ups aren't data, and they don't come from data. They are the answer to the question, "given what of one character's options beats the other and vice versa, who has the greatest chance of guessing right often enough." In a sense, the match-up ratio actually tries to remove the human element by removing patterns and pattern recognition altogether.

Since a match-up ratio seeks to remove the human element, you can see why it makes no sense to base it on data, because that data involves humans. You can also tell why match-ups are also a pretty stupid john. If a Falcon player loses to a Sheik player, then one player lost to another. Captain Falcon didn't lose to Sheik in that case, because Falcon only loses to Sheik when the human element is removed. Add the human element, and it's more important who's holding the controller. This is what I mean when I say it's an abstraction; the only situation where a match-up ratio would be germane literally cannot obtain.

So then why are match-up ratios important? Well... they aren't really that important. They are pithy ways to say how much more you'll have to out-think your opponent by, but not much more. It's more important to know why the ratios are what they are, than to know what they are.

And I think that this makes the most sense here. MU numbers are abstract, and theoretical. They do have importance in gameplay, but to john about a matchup is *generally* stupid. I say generally, because there are some matchups which we all know are bad. But lets consider all characters above ICs. I don't think that here, MU johns are really legitimate, because these characters all have the tools to beat the others, because the player is the final determining factor.

So MU numbers (in my opinion) do matter to the extent that they give us a reasonable expectation of how two characters will interact in battle. But these should not be used as smash Bibles to live by, but as...guidelines, to an extent.

 

[Divinokage]

Matchups DO matter, ESPECIALLY at top level.
I have always loved how every top player say that matchups matter (M2K, Hax, Jman, Armada, Amsah, Axe, TAJ for example) and then all the mediocre players suddenly say that they it doesnt matter at "the highest level" when they hasnt even played at that level.
Armada vs Amsah, PAL. 4-0 sweep
Armada vs Amsah, NTSC. 2-4. A little matchup change, a huge outcome difference.

I know most Americans don't think it matters just because {[Insert poke about americans not ever traveling to europe+Pal version/Mango losing a very good matchup] but guess fkn what, it does matter. Do you guys really think Armadas young link suddenly started recognizing patters and abusing what Hbox was doing or is it the fkn character not having a retardedly hard matchup.

(Just because matchups matter doesnt mean people cant be terrible enough to make it look even when its not).


EDIT:@Strawhats. I ment like, Ice and Taj ****** every single falco means more than PP beating M2K.

Umm.. I know.. that's my point. lol. I said they don't matter that much unless you know everything.

 

[leffen]

"Matchups don't really matter unless you know and have experience vs every situation possible"

Sorry if you really agreed with me, but knowing and having experience in every situation possible is not only more or less impossible... noone is even close to it >_>.

And matchups dont change, they always matter as much, peoples knowledge vary tho.

 

[Druggedfox]

@Druggedfox: Lol, you have to be kidding if you think mangos shieldpressure is ungrabable.

@JBOBS: Honestly, M2K sucks **** vs falco. If you just watch him, he NEVER beats lhdl (just counter=free kill) and has terrible reaction and **** (he lets ppl utilt his shield, NEVER powershields).

Other than that, falco hasnt beat Marth at all really. TAJ and Ice > PP vs M2K...

Try reading what I actually said. I didn't say his pressure is always ungrabbable, but that he occasionally does ungrabbable pressure. PP knows about it as well but w/e.

As I said before: you can keep doing random bad pressures rather than actually learning something you don't know, and I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

Also, counting PP vs taj at genesis 2 is pretty silly >_>

 

[JPOBS]

and yet Taj was able to beat mango/sick pp.

I don;t know what to make of Taj's matchs at genesis. Ok, so he beat PP. Fair, but pp was sick and also was losing to numerous people he probably wouldn't lose to on a normal day (shroomed).

Then theres the mango match. Honestly, in the 2 matches he lost, he got 3 stocked or something. In the 3 matches he won, they were all really close and he got some nice gimps. I'm not sure his sets at genesis are any indication at all that marth is better than falco. It moreso shows that he beat a sick pp and and mango who was clowning around. *shurgs*

@JBOBS: Honestly, M2K sucks **** vs falco. If you just watch him, he NEVER beats lhdl (just counter=free kill) and has terrible reaction and **** (he lets ppl utilt his shield, NEVER powershields).

Other than that, falco hasnt beat Marth at all really. TAJ and Ice > PP vs M2K...

Maybe M2k does suck vs falco, but Taj and Ice hardly prove anything imo. Ice hasn't even played any american falcos so I'm not going to bother arguing about it.

 

[Strong Badam]

i'm still very amused when people bring up Taj vs. Mango as if it's relevant to the match-up.

 

[Deleted member]

i'm still very amused when people bring up Taj vs. Mango as if it's relevant to the match-up.

it is relevant. you can't just ignore objective data because you don't like it. welcome to science mother ****er.

 

[Strong Badam]

i will ignore it if I want, **** you mow

 

[Deleted member]

i will ignore it if I want, **** you mow

lmao spoken like a true boss

 

[sad_day]

sooooo hard to be good with falco............................. fml homie

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Ok, so he beat PP. Fair, but pp was sick and also was losing to numerous people he probably wouldn't lose to on a normal day (shroomed).

It moreso shows that he beat a sick pp and and mango who was clowning around. *shurgs*

A few sets on a single day is inconclusive represent anything.
If something needs to be proven you look at a string of events to prove consistency.

sooooo hard to be good with falco............................. fml homie

And consistent. I agree with you... sad day

Spoiler

pun intended

 

[Divinokage]

sooooo hard to be good with falco............................. fml homie

Sooooo hard to be good, period. Stop complaining with your character.