PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[ChivalRuse]

WD away -> AC bair is definitely faster than dashing away and bairing.

 

[Rubyiris]

So I'm going to Genesis and I want all of the advice I can get. My goal is to male it to bracket.

How can I improve my defense? My reaction time? Edgeguarding? Time my aerials correctly? Remember not to laser too close? Space my combos correctly?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Play as much as you can.

And if people aren't being douches, post in the Falco crit thread.

 

[Rubyiris]

I play a fair amount but these are concepts I feel I'm having difficulty grasping or I'm learning incorrectly

 

[ChivalRuse]

Maybe you should relearn your fundamentals then? I don't know.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

a lot of those are just solved by really focusing on your opponents placement, and their tendencies once you see what they choose the first couple times. especially edgeguarding. once you really know what your hitboxes cover, and what your opponents options are based on his position, then edgeguarding becomes a matter of execution, rather than guessing.

as a matter of defense, just play as safely as you can. if you see your opponent do anything you don't expect, or something that might put you in danger, stay away and shoot another laser. just don't fall for thinking your opponents vulnerable when really, they can hit you with something. pay full attention to your opponent, and know their options, and force them to make the first mistake.

the more you play, the more you should feel able to do that.

i mean, you beat axe, just do that stuff again.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm not very good at observing and analysis mid game. Any suggestions on how to improve in that regard? Most of the time I just push buttons. There is little to no conciliation decision behind anything I do

 

[ChivalRuse]

Well, Rubyiris, there are several steps to improving your mid-game analysis:
1. Avoid taking a lot of risks and attack/defend conservatively. By putting yourself in situations you can control, you'll be able to recreate them and thus have a built-in advantage over people.
2. Understand why people do what they do when they do it. Remember that situation.
3. When you're in that situation later, anticipate what they'll do and counter it.

If you want, I can give you some examples.

 

[Rubyiris]

Go for it. This is very new to me since my mind doesn't work that way.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Okay. I guess I'll give a pretty straightforward example.

You're playing Falco against a Marth player. Rather than try for a close laser, which is susceptible to getting f-smashed or whatever, you decide to laser from a safer distance (so that you land out of his shield grab range. The thing is that you aren't close enough to f-tilt/jab him immediately after landing, so you're going to have to dash attack, shffl aerial, grab, or else choose an option that is more conservative, like laser again or something. But jab and f-tilt won't hit his shield.
1. You try a laser to grab, since you expect him to remain in shield, but he fairs out of shield which leads to a grab into ****.
2. You realize that he reacted to your laser spacing with the fair out of shield (anticipating you running forward in some way after the laser from that distance). You keep that in mind for the next time.
3. A situation arises again in which you get to laser him from about the same distance, and he has essentially no choice but to shield it. Instead of going in for a grab immediately, you fox trot briefly toward him (to bait the fair oos) then dash dance away to avoid it, and counter with a SHFFL dair to nail his whiffed SH fair oos.

Basically, this thought process is what I'm talking about.

 

[Vaccine]

WD away -> AC bair is definitely faster than dashing away and bairing.

whats AC mean?

 

[Fernandez]

auto cancel i think =]

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yes. As in short hop bair with no lag (well, technically 4 frames of lag but it's nothing compared to the usual 10).

 

[Da Shuffla]

Yeah, it's just a short hop Bair with no fast-fall.

The move's animation ends, and you just land normally.

I'm in that stage of my game where I essentially have to start playing more defensively to improve my own "mid-game analysis." I've started to move past "pre-school mindgames," stuff like noticing that an opponent tends to roll in when pressured at the ledge, and am trying to move into a higher level of thinking. Trying to analyze my opponent's entire mindset rather than memorizing a couple of situations. One thing that's almost completely over my head is conditioning. Here's an example.

Player A makes a point to shield everytime Player B short hops at him. Player B notices this habit, and attempts an empty short hop to grab. Player A saw that Player B would catch on, waveshields, and Fsmashes Player B.

Am I making this too complicated, or does this skill just come with more competitive play?

 

[FoxLisk]

Yeah, it's just a short hop Bair with no fast-fall.

The move's animation ends, and you just land normally.

I'm in that stage of my game where I essentially have to start playing more defensively to improve my own "mid-game analysis." I've started to move past "pre-school mindgames," stuff like noticing that an opponent tends to roll in when pressured at the ledge, and am trying to move into a higher level of thinking. Trying to analyze my opponent's entire mindset rather than memorizing a couple of situations. One thing that's almost completely over my head is conditioning. Here's an example.

Player A makes a point to shield everytime Player B short hops at him. Player B notices this habit, and attempts an empty short hop to grab. Player A saw that Player B would catch on, waveshields, and Fsmashes Player B.

Am I making this too complicated, or does this skill just come with more competitive play?

just dont stop doing something until it stops working. If your opponent always shields when you sh, go ahead and empty sh grab. if you get wavesmashed next time, dont do it again.

 

[Da Shuffla]

I was speaking more from the point of Player A; working on conditioning your opponent to believe that every time he does X, I do Y, and then finding out when he will catch on so I can do Z. I guess I was just trying to get some discussion going about finding out how your opponent learns, but once again, I might be trying to go too far.

 

[FoxLisk]

I was speaking more from the point of Player A; working on conditioning your opponent to believe that every time he does X, I do Y, and then finding out when he will catch on so I can do Z. I guess I was just trying to get some discussion going about finding out how your opponent learns, but once again, I might be trying to go too far.

well but pay attention here, that's nto what you were asking. you were stating:

every time player A does X, player B does Y

so you actually weren't asking about the situation where player A is convincing player B that:

every time player B does X, player A does Y.

Which is also worth thinking about. Generally, though, you're better off reading his responses so you can abuse those rather than hoping he'll read your responses eventually so you can later switch up and abuse his prediction. Basically, until your opponent is very good, you're better off predicting him than waiting for him to predict you.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I was speaking more from the point of Player A; working on conditioning your opponent to believe that every time he does X, I do Y, and then finding out when he will catch on so I can do Z. I guess I was just trying to get some discussion going about finding out how your opponent learns, but once again, I might be trying to go too far.

That's largely player-dependent in terms of when they find out, but your base strategy should be tricky/flexible enough for you to keep them from finding out what you're doing or not being able to shut you down if they can figure it out anyway(for a variety of reasons that are long-winded and complicated).

Finding as many ways to be tricky as possible is always a great start. The more ways you can be effective/hard to read the better you are. Once you get that down it's all a matter of reading your opponent and applying these concepts you have as the situation/player/point of the match calls for it.

Ideally, you'd want to learn both of these things at the same time but it may help you to focus on each one individually.

 

[SPAWN]

I'm going to critique myself probably one at a time when i have free time. If I could get some more people to discuss through it with me that'd be awesome. I'll try to leave my critiques as open ended as possible.

Anyways match 1: Spawn (Fox) vs PC (Falco)
:12 When Fox is closing in that tight of a space don't do djffdl, it leaves you getting hit a lot or in a bad position
:15 The retreating laser was good but don't combo with nair at low percents
:17 shine oos/get out of there
:23 how do I continue this combo, what should I have done after the shine?
1:01-1:15 Idk how i got ***** so bad, what I could've changed...
Rest of the match: Idk what I did wrong...

General tips: Don't double jump around so much with Falco

I figured if I critiqued myself and had others help out I'd get better results for getting help rather than just posting a ton of matches and asking for some people to critique a few of them.

Thanks for any help.

 

[FoxLisk]

That's largely player-dependent in terms of when they find out, but your base strategy should be tricky/flexible enough for you to keep them from finding out what you're doing or not being able to shut you down if they can figure it out anyway(for a variety of reasons that are long-winded and complicated).

Finding as many ways to be tricky as possible is always a great start. The more ways you can be effective/hard to read the better you are. Once you get that down it's all a matter of reading your opponent and applying these concepts you have as the situation/player/point of the match calls for it.

Ideally, you'd want to learn both of these things at the same time but it may help you to focus on each one individually.

okay so i may be misinterpreting Dr. PP's response but the takeaway I got was:

Pay attention to your opponent's reactions, and then think of as many ways to punish as you can, and mix those up so your opponent finds it hard to realize you're punishing the same thing.

And, relatedly, when your opponent is approaching in a predictable way, come up with as many ways as you can to defend against it so he doesnt realize you're defending against the same approach in different ways and it's difficult for him to read your defenses.

 

[Deleted member]

do not focus on the abilities of your opponent's mental capacity, that is a fox related talent. falco should stick to control and proper micromanagement of advantageous situations.

on regards to being flexible enough to adapt to or train your opponent, i find that most opponents are not observant enough to adapt mid-match, let alone learn in such a manner that is in your favor. you are trying to manipulate too many levels deep. instead focus your energies and operate from the core of your talent rather than your opponent's less certain and less controllable core and play a more reactive style. through practice and proper focus, you yourself will be able to adapt to your opponent whether or not they adapt to you at all. through thick and thin, this is the way of the fox.

 

[Rubyiris]

Here's another question for the boards; how would one go about identifying their strengths and or talents. As a negative person I always identify my weaknesses and work from there, but I feel as though I've lost touch with my strengths as a player. There are plenty of things I do well or correctly but they don't stand out to me as strengths or talents.

 

[Jake13]

get a video of you that you don't remember playing and just look at what works.

or gain self confidence

i think the latter is harder

 

[Druggedfox]

Tell yourself you're a boss, go **** people a lot, then think about how awesome you are... I'm being pretty serious

 

[Da Shuffla]

Pay attention to your opponent's reactions, and then think of as many ways to punish as you can, and mix those up so your opponent finds it hard to realize you're punishing the same thing.

This part really stuck out to me. I hadn't previously thought about this strategy. I normally punish a mistake using the same thing, but using this method it makes it harder for them to catch on. This also brings to my attention mistakes that I myself have been making that smarter opponents chose not to punish the same way, and thus left me clueless as to what I'm doing wrong. Thanks.

Also @ Rubyiris, it's very important to keep reminding yourself how good you are. I also suffer from a negative temperament which has no doubt hindered my own game. I had it backwards. I thought that you needed to be good to have any right to feel confident, but the real story is that you need to be confident in order to be good. Playing people has more than enough pressure on it's own, so make sure your technical skill is on point, so you don't have to worry about that. If that means that you have to spend some time in your room with the lights off practicing, so be it. Being fully confident in your tech skill allows you to be more focused when going for reads. If you have the skill, you can capitalize more efficiently, and get the kill, thus increasing your confidence.

I've found out that if I play to win instead of playing to learn, I do far worse. If you play to win, as soon as you lose, all sorts of negative thoughts creep into your brain, which then cause you to lose more, and then more negative. . . .you see where this is going. Just play to learn, slow down, and get a feel for your opponent's habits.

Wow, long post.

Confidence is top tier.

 

[Wenbobular]

I've found out that if I play to learn instead of playing to win, I do far worse. If you play to win, as soon as you lose, all sorts of negative thoughts creep into your brain, which then cause you to lose more, and then more negative. . . .you see where this is going. Just play to learn, slow down, and get a feel for your opponent's habits.

I assume you meant playing to win is worse for you haha

 

[Da Shuffla]

^^ Wow. Thanks for catching that. My mind was in a couple of different places.

 

[crush]

just dont stop doing something until it stops working. If your opponent always shields when you sh, go ahead and empty sh grab. if you get wavesmashed next time, dont do it again.

Didnt you do that to me at mafias house?

 

[JPOBS]

Tell yourself you're a boss, go **** people a lot, then think about how awesome you are... I'm being pretty serious

This advice also applies quite literally with women.

 

[Divinokage]

Tell yourself you're a boss, go **** people a lot, then think about how awesome you are... I'm being pretty serious

That's pretty much what I said to him in his own thread but he disregarded it. I'm like fine, be that way.

 

[Rubyiris]

You guys are misinterpreting what I am saying. I am not saying that I do not have confidence. I am a very optimistic person in reality and in tournament. What I am saying is that the way my mind works is that I can always spot a players mistakes but I have difficulties identifying their strengths. I want to become acquainted with my strengths because I feel as though I have lost touch with them.

Kage the only reason I disregarded your post was because you said something that I am already very aware of and have been practicing for the past year. Why do people think I've improved as much as I have?

 

[Divinokage]

There's no reason to watch your own strength or the opponent's strength because the greatest strength is a lack of weakness. When you hit somebody, it means your opponent must have failed a spacing or guessed incorrectly in a certain situation. When you have no weakness, then there's nothing the opponent can exploit.. you can stay unpredictable and do your own stuff to them. Melee at high level is a big guessing game. You only need one knockdown and then from there you attempt to **** your opponent.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I love this philosophy thread. <3

I agree with umnreon, great post.

 

[Rubyiris]

There's no reason to watch your own strength or the opponent's strength because the greatest strength is a lack of weakness. When you hit somebody, it means your opponent must have failed a spacing or guessed incorrectly in a certain situation. When you have no weakness, then there's nothing the opponent can exploit.. you can stay unpredictable and do your own stuff to them. Melee at high level is a big guessing game. You only need one knockdown and then from there you attempt to **** your opponent.

I find this to be inherently flawed since everybody has weaknesses regardless of what they do.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

given that the idea of melee is to find the opponents weakness, i think the only strength one can legitimately have is finding opponents weaknesses faster than your opponent can find yours. as kage is stating, there are two ways of having the advantage against your opponent: speed in finding your opponents weaknesses, and the ability to keep your own weaknesses few and far between, thus being hard to spot and punish.

so like...it's a lot harder to find things that you're good at. finding everything in a match that you COULD have done wrong, but didn't, is a lot harder to find than finding everything that you did wrong and got punished for. every properly spaced bair on shield doesn't stick out compared to the one you may have done wrong and got shieldgrabbed and comboed to death from. It's all execution of the little things.

 

[Brookman]

I find this to be inherently flawed since everybody has weaknesses regardless of what they do.

This is why kage wins teams and takes 5th place and other amazing things with ganon. He's trying to translate a mindset to you. Just a matter of making good decisions constantly, through out the entire tournament.

 

[Rubyiris]

That and I have come to terms that I am.an extremely slow learner. I feel that I should be one of the best in the world now.considering how much experience I have, how hard I work, and how often I play but instead I'm still lacking heavily in many departments, especially the mental game. :/

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hm ... mind set ... mentality ... let's take a lesson!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDIAYpLmDkI#t=3m25s

 

[JPOBS]

Hard work, effort and practice can only go so far in any activity determined by skill. You can only aquire so much skill through practice. Natural Talent is necessary to progress beyond that.

 

[Divinokage]

That and I have come to terms that I am.an extremely slow learner. I feel that I should be one of the best in the world now.considering how much experience I have, how hard I work, and how often I play but instead I'm still lacking heavily in many departments, especially the mental game. :/

No johns, I learn really slow too. But I also have now 5 years of Ganon tournament practice. It definitely means something, it means I was able to recognize what most players do and why they do it. Of course it also means, that my style against them will not necessarily work. Like me vs M2k again at Zenith, I got destroyed because I simply didn't know what to do to outsmart him. M2k is simply better than me because his reaction time is greater than mine and he uses his tools with absolute precision. His punishment game is soooo good. On a side note, it was a treat to see him try his hardest through out the whole tournament. =)

I personally believe we already know subconsciously what we need to do. Everyone does, it's just a matter of keep trying. A powerful person is someone that always tries.

Let's put ourselves in this situation, (This is how I generally think when I train), you have a puzzle to accomplish in front of you and you have limited time to do it. If times up then you will die. Just what happens to your mind in this situation? Will you not try everything possible to solve the puzzle? There's no more time to think about "Oh, I can just get better tomorrow", you HAVE to get better now or else it's over for you. Finding the truths that way I find is a lot easier.. but also really hard to maintain focus in the game 100%. This definitely also requires a lot training.