PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[KirbyKaze]

Peach proper float height + Fair is a pain for Falco.

Platform camp is difficult. I think Uair is good against it because it goes through his Dair and it's pretty easy to lob out nonchalantly, but I have limited experience with Peach and even less experience against Falco with Peach.

 

[Lovage]

wtf

im no EXPERT but it feels like 55:45 falco to me


bair ***** peach

 

[KirbyKaze]

I agree that Bair is crazy ridiculous vs Peach.

 

[Rubyiris]

float height + fair is annoying, but the match up is still in Falcos favor, but it is by far the most irritating match-up ever, unless you enjoy your set taking like 40 minutes to complete.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I love those.

 

[Rubyiris]

I love those.

Enemy KirbyKaze used Confuse Ray!

Rubyiris is now confused!

 

[Doomblaze]

Rubyiris uses SHL!
Rubyiris is confused!
Rubyiris shoots a low laser and Peach Fairs him off the stage and edgehogs him.
Rubyiris has fainted!

true story yo, how do we stop this?

 

[Rubyiris]

Just sounds like bad spacing on your part.

Be more mindful of the distance between you and the gay floating hitbox
Be more consciously aware of the height you're shooting lasers

 

[KirbyKaze]

Lately I've discovered I think my non-Raynex/Unknown/IB opponents usually hate long, boring games more than I do.

This confuses me immensely because they're usually the ones doing things that make it impossible for me to approach effectively. So then I mellow and do nothing but float and space because, well, I don't really feel inclined to attack platform camping Fox, DD camping Falcon, hard Bair camping Puff, etc.

And they think *I* hate having fun.

 

[PEEF!]

A couple questions:

1: Platform camping is just Falco Dairing on plats at the right times? Does it not entail anything else?

2:How does Fox "platform camp" then?

3: How is Falco/Fox Bair so good against Peach?

4: When lasering from above a platform and landing on the plat, obviously falling through doesn't work, but the run forward>fallthrough is really really hard? What is the timing on that? Is there another way?

If someone (unknown, kirbykaze, mog) answered all these that would be awesome.

 

[TheGeneral]

It's discussions like these that every falco player has that make me love this match-up as peach. At the highest levels of play, of course falco has a slight advantage. D-air. JC Shine -> anything. Also lazors. Enough said.

At anything under that level. Be on your best game or get messed up by peach's fairs, d-smashes and amazing gimping ability.

@ Mogwai - Peach's umbrella makes her jump from the ground a lot faster than her actual jump and she's invulnerable for a second when it comes out, so it actually can punish someone that's camping on the platform above her. I mean, you have to land or drop through the platform eventually.

I was playing my friend's falco yesterday and when he wasn't concentrating on "playing ********", I was beating him. I had to remind him of all of the stupid things he can do to peach.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peef:

1) Platform camping can be a lot of stuff. Lasering under the platform because it's awesome, Dairing on a platform, etc. Usually people attribute it to working on top of the platforms and abusing priority and some kind of movement game. Good wavelands and high jumps tend to be valued for this style of camping. Falco's Dair, Shine, and Bair are conveniently amazing so it makes the strat even better for him.

2) Fox can camp platforms against Peach by just standing, jumping, or running around on them because his mobility with them is astoundingly amazing and Peach's vertical movement is horrible. And if she tries to attack via full jumps and crap, you let her miss and shoot her or hit her depending on how much she misses by and where you are.

3) Priority, startup, etc. It's just really good against her.

4) I think you can hold forward and quarter circle from there to do the Isai drop lasers.

 

[Mogwai]

A couple questions:

1: Platform camping is just Falco Dairing on plats at the right times? Does it not entail anything else?

2:How does Fox "platform camp" then?

3: How is Falco/Fox Bair so good against Peach?

4: When lasering from above a platform and landing on the plat, obviously falling through doesn't work, but the run forward>fallthrough is really really hard? What is the timing on that? Is there another way?

If someone (unknown, kirbykaze, mog) answered all these that would be awesome.

1. you seem to want a more concrete definition of platform camping than really applies to how people use the term. We just talk about platform camping to describe a player using a platform-centric strategy from the neutral position, which is to say that you simply avoild fighting the opponent on level ground and instead try to leverage platforms into more useful angels of approach/response.

2. fox runs around on platforms, drops through with bair/nair, jumps off with those moves. Essentially, since Fox has the most absurdly useful physics in the game, he can constantly keep himself in position to approach from upwards angles by staying on platforms.

3. cause it's one of the best moves in the game? Peach just doesn't really have an answer for bair, it's hitbox completely molests all of Peach's possible responses.

4 what? I mean, Isai dropping involves walking, not running, so most likely you're just doing it wrong. There's also Shai dropping or something that involves using your shield, but I don't know how to do that ****. I'd say that you should just learn to isai drop, but it's not a priority. Just waiting a split second and dropping through without using the walk to cancel out of your landing animation is only 2 frames slower, so work on more vital parts of your game before you go nuts of trying to learn isai dropping. And honestly, isai dropping isn't that hard, there's not an easier solution when you get to the phase of your game where you want to work on platforms in your laser technique.

 

[unknown522]

matchup's even IMO

I go falco vs peach, mostly because sh shine ***** her if she trys to cc and if you don't play like a ****** (by a ****** I mean try to combo her) then you can just lazer her out of her float and fthrow her till she's dead

I remember at ROM 2, you CP'd brinstar on me, so I went falco. I also went falco vs DoH when he CP'd me to FD in loser's bracket.

He's too good sometimes.

 

[PEEF!]

Peef:

1) Platform camping can be a lot of stuff. Lasering under the platform because it's awesome, Dairing on a platform, etc. Usually people attribute it to working on top of the platforms and abusing priority and some kind of movement game. Good wavelands and high jumps tend to be valued for this style of camping. Falco's Dair, Shine, and Bair are conveniently amazing so it makes the strat even better for him.

2) Fox can camp platforms against Peach by just standing, jumping, or running around on them because his mobility with them is astoundingly amazing and Peach's vertical movement is horrible. And if she tries to attack via full jumps and crap, you let her miss and shoot her or hit her depending on how much she misses by and where you are.

3) Priority, startup, etc. It's just really good against her.

4) I think you can hold forward and quarter circle from there to do the Isai drop lasers.

Thanks much KirbyKaze. Has anyone told you you look like Cosmo?

Thanks Mog. I thought it was a dash>fallthrough, maybe thats the reason I have never once successfully done it. I was looking for a concrete definition so I can try it.

One more question for both or either of you, if you don't mind. Bair is really good in this matchup, but in what circumstances? On shield? Into a float? Should it be autocancelled? The reason I am asking is because I really like having sure answers to certain situations. Hopefully nobody is getting pissed at these questions, they help us all think.

 

[Mogwai]

I like autocancel bairing just outside of their shield range and rising through floating approach attempts with full hop bair, but it has considerably more utility than just that. Again, it just matches up REALLY REALLY well vs. all of her aerials (and ground moves for that matter), so any time she's in the air anywhere and you can position to bair, it's usually useful.

 

[JPOBS]

all those questions asked on the last page are actually really helpful.


I've never tried to stright up bair camp peach, but i find using bair in any situation that isnt a combo kinda awkward. Like, i cant see myself turning around just to bair peach but maybe thats part of the problem, im not open minded enough to awkward seeming strategies....

although i do ******** junk like shl->turnaround uptilt lol. next time i play vs peach im gonna try to camp her with lasers and bair better.

 

[PEEF!]

Cool cool, thanks.

I also have a real theory with Falco Fthrow since we are in the discussing mood:

Fthrow a spacie, shl. If timed properly, this laser can function as a laser reset >repeat. This same laser, if they tech in place, will stun and you will be in a position to regrab. If they techroll away, this same laser will stun them out of the roll and you can easily regrab. If they techroll behind, the laser will miss, but you will be in position to fsmash or regrab because you will already be on that side of them. Point being, I think it is completely possible to regrab from fthrow 100% of the time when fox/falco/falcon has to tech. In summary:

Missed tech: laser resets, allowing regrab.
Tech in place: laser stuns, allowing regrab.
Tech away: laser follows and stuns, allowing regrab.
Tech behind: laser misses, but position allows regrab (or fsmash)

More testing tonight, thoughts?

 

[Mogwai]

you're taking the theory too far. laser -> grab doesn't actually work, it's a pseudo combo that works alot because people feel scared playing against Falco and like to shield a lot when they're scared, but most people nowadays are buffering responses out of techs, all of which dodge getting grabbed after getting hit by a laser. the way I approach tech chasing with Lasers is that I'm just trying to reestablish laser control, I'm not scripting anything after it. so in this case, I would laser low in place after fthrowing, respond to tech towards me with utilt, dair them after resetting vs. no tech, and simply accept the fact that I have laser control back vs. the other two options and exploit it the way I normally would in the neutral position rather than trying to immediately follow up on it.

 

[PEEF!]

Laser>grab isn't a real combo?

 

[X1-12]

wtf

im no EXPERT but it feels like 55:45 falco to me


bair ***** peach

i swear she can CC D-smash or grab? from this? and if you space perfectly she can just DI in a bit and do the same

 

[JPOBS]

I've been doing the exact same thing Rich in situations where i Fthrow, or do a move and cant chase directly with another move, its actually amazing.

and even if they buffer rolls out of it, you're still in an advantaged position being on the offense, theres really no downside.

 

[SuperMatt]

about the laser platform drops PEEF...its very easy actually

all you do is...you're coming down shoooting lasers, then you'll land on a platform, just hold forward and you will start to walk....then from there you can do whatever you want...fall through being one of the options

 

[PEEF!]

If laser>grab isn't a combo, then this all can fall apart vs really good people, but if laser>grab is a combo, I really think there is a magical laser timing that can guarantee a regrab from both tech in place and tech away.

I usually default upthrow now, though. Uthrow>shinebair really works more than it doesn't on fox/falco. It doesn't work on falcon very often though, usually I just nair him or bair if I'm feelin real pimpish.

 

[JPOBS]

lots of things work a bunch in this game even if it isnt a "true combo"

also, im not even sure laser->grab isnt a true combo. I remember KK telling me once he tested Laser->dtilt in training mode and it registers as a true combo so i dont see why laser->grab doesnt.

regardless, you shouldnt just neglect something on the basis that it can in theory be escaped.
Practicality > Theory.

 

[Mogwai]

grab a friend. tell them to tech in place and hold the button they use to tech with and down on the c-stick. fthrow them, laser in place so that you could punish them rolling behind you. try to grab them before they spotdodge.

 

[JPOBS]

i'll do it tonight along with other variations and get back to you

 

[X1-12]

I don't Think training mode counts grabs as a 'consecutive hit' since its not really a hit, I did shine ->shinegrab with fox against a wall in training and it didn't register

But.. F-tilt and grab both come out on frame 7 and i managed to get laser -> d-tilt to true combo (after about 20 tries)

 

[Rubyiris]

Lately I've discovered I think my non-Raynex/Unknown/IB opponents usually hate long, boring games more than I do.

This confuses me immensely because they're usually the ones doing things that make it impossible for me to approach effectively. So then I mellow and do nothing but float and space because, well, I don't really feel inclined to attack platform camping Fox, DD camping Falcon, hard Bair camping Puff, etc.

And they think *I* hate having fun.

Rubyiris snapped out of its confusion!

Pokemon puns aside, I understand now.

 

[KirbyKaze]

One more question for both or either of you, if you don't mind. Bair is really good in this matchup, but in what circumstances? On shield? Into a float? Should it be autocancelled? The reason I am asking is because I really like having sure answers to certain situations. Hopefully nobody is getting pissed at these questions, they help us all think.

Just do the ****ing move and hit her GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWD

Don't do it when she's grounded and below like 50%

Do it in any other case and it will probably work

If character ASDIs down the D-tilt crap isn't a real combo and training mode is buggy with consecutive hits. I'm sorry JPOBS but I may have mislead you. I should have clarified that it was on a standing opponent. Training mode also grants you a frame or two for the consecutive hits to connect, or something like that. I know this because I've hit the CPU with F-tilt --> delayed Fair and he's DJed but it still counted despite him clearly DJing.

 

[JPOBS]

hmm i see. i guess it makes sense cuz a asdi down would be like a CC and CCing a laser would be like no hitstun at all :/....

about laser-> grab though, just as an fyi to everyone (cuz i didnt know this lol), ya, training mode doesnt register grabs as consecutive hits.

but i'll do some stuff tonight vs a human i have lots of ideas on things to test concerning laser->grab

 

[X1-12]

hmm i see. i guess it makes sense cuz a asdi down would be like a CC and CCing a laser would be like no hitstun at all :/....

about laser-> grab though, just as an fyi to everyone (cuz i didnt know this lol), ya, training mode doesnt register grabs as consecutive hits.

but i'll do some stuff tonight vs a human i have lots of ideas on things to test concerning laser->grab

training mode allows 1 frame, and i had to try loads to get laser -> D-tilt to combo, i reckon if they CC laser it would no way be a 'true combo'

 

[Rubyiris]

New Falco vids. Advice would be wonderful. :3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxp6cv9SGtE#t=3m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlB5bBc834Y

 

[Dr Peepee]

First match:

-Tried to shield pressure too long(TAI knew how/when to get away/punish so you should go in and mix up retreating aerial, double shine, and shine grab).

-laser low vs Marth

-you grab at weird times. I guess if people run away when they're in front of you instead of shielding you should chase with a laser or something.

-laser control is good to establish any time you hit the ground if you can manage it(unless you're pretty close to Marth).

-I prefer Uthrow on Marth over Fthrow or whatever. Nice Uair follow ups, and if not, you can Bair/laser Marth which is very good.

-be patient when a Marth is on the edge. If you're going to try to take it at all, then you'll have to WD back.

-try to FF Dair a Marth out of the air at lower %s if you want to keep him stunned long enough to keep you safe/allow you to combo.

-shine oos is a little slow.

-should Nair/Bair follow up in the air instead of uair if possible because you want to send Marth offstage.

-i dunno, I just feel like you need more lasers in your game. I'll see you stand around too much and then try to grab or Fsmash or something, which doesn't work well on Marth because he's not going to run into your moves so much as bait them or outspace them.

Sort of sloppy critique, but I guess it'll do.

 

[Rubyiris]

The standing around/random fsmashes are a combination of bad habits, flubbing technical skill, and just overall not really knowing what to do in those situations.

Fthrows were supposed to be uthrows.

Other than that, I'll keep what you had to say in mind, and try and work it into my game. =D

I'm thinking about printing out all the critique I get sometime soon, because it's hard to remember everything I'm told.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It helps to keep it somewhere you can look at again for sure.

I'll look at the other match in a bit(today).

 

[unknown522]

New Falco vids. Advice would be wonderful. :3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxp6cv9SGtE#t=3m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlB5bBc834Y

u-throw is better than f-throw at lower percents.

There were a couple of times where you hit a laser up close and you could've done a shine -> combo. There were also times where tai was right in your face and you were shielding and he mis-spaced an attack or was DDing. You could do shine oos and possibly get a combo.

You also jump in from too far away. Tai could've WD'd back and grabbed/f-smashed you or CC -> grab for a lot of your approaches (mostly the n-air approaches). Keep lasering until you can get a bit closer.

There were also times where you got close inside his DD. but it seemed like you were afraid to attack him. You could run in and shine him so that you don't run the risk of getting CC'd, but you will be safe on shield.

If you need times, I'll post them later. Going to sleep.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'd like to know when I could have gotten in on him. LMK when you can. =]

But yeah. all fthrows were failed uthrows, just an fyi.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

dunno if you guys have seen shiz vs lucky yet

but @_@

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, that Shiz guy is pretty good.

I plan on watching those matches quite a few times lol.