PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Shaeman111]

How do you make gifs out of videos??
and why isn't pikachu mid tier?!

 

[Mogwai]

powerful wizardry is required to make gifs out of videos. I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you.

Pikachu should be mid tier, IMO. The Mogwai Tier list goes something like

OMG OP/IMBA TIER
Falco
Fox
Jiggs
Sheik

Guys who Punish Like They're Imba, but Aren't Actually Imba Tier
Marf
Peach
Falcon

Pri Goot Tier
Ice Climbers
Ganon
Doc
Samus

Mid Tier
Mario
Luigi
DK
Pikachu

Legend of Zelda: ft. Roy! Tier
Link
Y. Link
Roy
Zelda

Dude's who Look Cool Sometimes but Really Suck Tier
Game and Watch
Yoshi
Mewtwo

OMG, ****ING TERRIBLE Tier
Pichu
Bowser
Ness
Kirby

 

[JPOBS]

move jiggs out of the highest tier and put her below marth and that would be a tier list i support 100%

 

[Mogwai]

move jiggs out of the highest tier and put her below marth and that would be a tier list i support 100%

na trick. It's been a couple years now, Jiggs is certifiably really really good, come to terms with it pl0x.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth should be in Marth tier.

 

[JPOBS]

na trick. It's been a couple years now, Jiggs is certifiably really really good, come to terms with it pl0x.

yes i know jiggs is really really good hence why i said put her as the 5th best

 

[Mogwai]

but she's better than Sheik and Marth...

and KK, I honestly don't think Marth is considerably better than Falcon or Peach. I think he's better, but not by enough to merit another tier.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fair enough, though I'm inclined to disagree.

 

[unknown522]

No problem dude. =)

Yo, drumstick avatar all dai! I used to be really good at DKR. I was actually running through it again today.

coool sig ... haha i need to make one for swat

thanks. You should do it up for swat, that'd be sick.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo, drumstick avatar all dai! I used to be really good at DKR. I was actually running through it again today.

Haha legit bro. Drumstick is too good.

 

[Shaeman111]

i think marth should be right above sheik. and jiggs down one.
everything else seems right. But dang i want link to just be bottom of mid already! UGH >.>

 

[Mogwai]

naaaaa, Marth's not that good and Jiggs is, but it's hard to argue aside from the fact that Jiggs players are the most consistent tournament performers.

and lol, who cares about Link? he's considerably less viable than the dudes in Mid Tier. No one's made a mark with Link the way Ka-Master, Bum or Axe have with their characters and that speaks volumes about how much worse he is.

 

[X1-12]

naaaaa, Marth's not that good and Jiggs is

I disagree with this, but I love your reasoning..

 

[JPOBS]

i dont really see how jiggs is better than sheik in the grand scheme of things at all :/

and "jiggs players' arent the most consistent tourny placers. HBox is just consistent/good as hell.
i wouldnt even call mango a jiggs player or use him as a sample evidence cuz it doesnt matter who he uses.

and if tourny consistency of players is supposed to be some indication of where a char should be on a tierlist, then i guess we better stop playing the fool and move Falcon right up there under fox/falco because every big tourny there is 3-4 falcons in the top 10, which naturally must mean falcon is like the 3rd best char or something :/

i just think talking about player consistency is a bad way to decipher which char is better than another once you start looking at high top tiers cuz at that pointrdly matters. bet the top 20 players in the world could all shuffle their mains around and have a tourny and their placings would be pretty much identical.

 

[Mogwai]

i dont really see how jiggs is better than sheik in the grand scheme of things at all :/

and "jiggs players' arent the most consistent tourny placers. HBox is just consistent/good as hell.
i wouldnt even call mango a jiggs player or use him as a sample evidence cuz it doesnt matter who he uses.

funny how any time his back's against the wall, Mango just ***** the opponent with Jiggs though . Yes, I agree that using them as evidence isn't perfect, but ****, you can do the same thing with every other character that's not Fox or Falco by taking away their top two players. Hence why Fox and Falco are the best, and since we only have a few players of each remaining character to go on, I'll stick with saying that the fact that the best Jiggs players consistently **** THE BALLS OFF of the placings of everyone else, that speaks an awful lot about just how relatively good their character is.

Jiggs is better than Sheik vs. Fox and Falco. Sheik is better vs. Marth. I'd say they're about equal vs. Falcon and Peach. Sure Sheik ***** the rest of the cast better, but in the most relevant matchups, Jiggs is better than Sheik.

The question of Sheik vs. Jiggs is an interesting one too, but HBox beat up on Amsah and while you can blame that on matchup experience or whatever, the simple fact is that there isn't a sheik out there right now that has HBox or Mango shaking in their little Jiggs boots. Before that match, I was sure Sheik was good vs. Jiggs based solely on how their aerials match up, but now I'm pretty sure Jiggs wins the match.

Zoso told me that when he talked with KK about the matchup, KK just told him that Jiggs is good vs. Sheik because she makes all of the things that Sheik is good at irrelevant (can't be comboed, can't be grabbed (always in the air or crouching), can't be edgeguarded... what does Sheik have left?)

EDIT: lol, what tournies are you looking at? I mean, sure, Genesis had 3 Falcons in the top 8, but they were 6,7,8. Let's be real here, no one expects a Falcon to win a big tourney, he's just too limited and it shows once good Falcons run into players experienced vs. Falcon.

 

[JPOBS]

I agree that jiggs has the advantage in the direct matchup. but i also think sheik wrecks falcon harder than jiggs does.

i also think both of their vs fox matchups depend entirely on the fox.
An arggo fox will lose to a jiggs no problem, a campy fox stands a much better chance.

meh i dunno, i just wish more people played chars that werent space animals so we could have a larger sample size instead of looking at the top 2 players of each char....

 

[Mogwai]

Jiggs completely futtbucks Falcon. They play the same spacing game, but Jiggs has a way higher payoff for each hit since she can combo and edgeguard him, while he can do nothing except hope she dies to his uair/bair. I mean, Sheik has a more convincing lead in the neutral position over Falcon, but Falcon punishes the **** out of Sheik, she's prime combo fodder and easy to edgeguard. Jiggs plays a boring war of attrition with a convincing advantage to start with. *shrugs* kinda irrelevant who wins more, either way, when I see a Falcon needs to play a good Jiggs/Sheik next in the bracket, I just start looking at who they'll have to play in losers.

 

[JPOBS]

the only chars that consistently place better than falcon at US tournies are fox/falco/jiggs. The best 3 chars in the game. not surprising.

whenever people look at tourny results they see lots of foxs/falco and 2 jiggs, and think "oh those must be the best chars in the game"

then how come when you have like 3 falcons directly behind those top chars, and AHEAD of peachs/sheiks/marths no one stops and says 'so falcon must be like the 4th best char in the game"

granted, i dont even think falcon IS the 4th best, its just funny that falcon routinely outplace EVERYONE that isnt fox/falco/jiggs/M2K and yet we still have him placed so low on the tier list.

double standards are fun.

 

[Niko45]

I definitely agree that multiple CFs outplace his tier ranking quite consistently.

Besides that, my minor gripes with Mog's tier list are that Bowser should be up one tier, G&W should be up one tier, and Link should be up one tier.

 

[Mogwai]

Falcon has a lot of popularity so he places disproportionally high. But like, you can't say not counting M2K , it's not his fault he's the only great Marth/Sheik in North America. And the fact that Europe came and showed us Amsah and Armada and seeing how much more competitive they are with our top players than our top Falcons says a lot about Sheik and Peach relative to Falcon. And yea, there's still M2K's Marth out there reminding us that Marth's better than Falocons. Pre-Armada, I was actually lobbying pretty hard for CF > Peach, but yea... sorry, Armada has made me a believer in Peach's potential.

 

[JPOBS]

yea, i agree with what you're saying, i just hate taking such a small sample size of one player (m2k's marth, armada peach, amsah's sheik) and using it as a foundation to make a statement like sheik/marth/peach > falcon, when other than those singularities, evidence points to the contrary.

but its one of those things that just has to be accepted due to the huge lack of sheik marth, and peach players i guess. people really should play other chars.

*goes back to practicing space animals*

 

[PEEF!]

I say Jiggs is the best character in the game.

Falco and Fox very close. Nobody else very close to them.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Jiggs is better than Sheik vs. Fox and Falco. Sheik is better vs. Marth. I'd say they're about equal vs. Falcon and Peach. Sure Sheik ***** the rest of the cast better, but in the most relevant matchups, Jiggs is better than Sheik.

Sheik is at least equally equipped to handle Fox, IMO. Her tech chases, if the Sheik is on point, are almost completely inescapable and can be as damaging as an U-throw Rest. Arguably more, sometimes, because they can start at 0 and tear a whole stock.

Sheik's gimping is definitely on par with Puff's in the matchup. Sheik, IMO, actually sets her gimps up better than Puff because of tilt --> Fair and dash attack --> Fair in addition to the B-throw, D-smash, spaced aerials, etc. Puff gets some points for D-throw near the edge, though, and being able to spam Nair kind of safely and get tech chases or free dash attacks, but that's also high percent specific.

Zoso told me that when he talked with KK about the matchup, KK just told him that Jiggs is good vs. Sheik because she makes all of the things that Sheik is good at irrelevant (can't be comboed, can't be grabbed (always in the air or crouching), can't be edgeguarded... what does Sheik have left?)

Sheik has camping, basically. You can platform camp and wait on them and try to keep yourself on a different height than Puff for the whole game. This has oodles of issues riddled into it, including the simple stage issue. But yeah... you don't have much to work with. And if Puff gets a lead and decides to just chill and wait for Sheik to approach properly, Sheik is pretty screwed because Sheik's approach blows.

 

[ViciousEnd]

And if Puff gets a lead and decides to just chill and wait for Sheik to approach properly, Sheik is pretty screwed because Sheik's approach blows.

Oh how terrible for sheik. If she does however manage to get a grab off on Jiggs, doesn't she just do automatic stuff at every relevant percent?

 

[Mogwai]

yea and if Bowser manages to hit his fsmash, it's probably gonna kill the other dude.

 

[Niko45]

It may just be my perception, but sheiks seem to lose to foxes a bit more than puffs do.

Comparing Sheik tech chasing 0-death vs puff upthrow resting seems pretty awkward since Sheik's potentially inescapable tech chase is on the sheik to not mess up, but, you know, it takes not messing up many many times to be done successfully. up throw rest is a one-shot situation where the fox can completely escape or mess up and die with no effort from jiggs. It's pretty clear why you see up throw rest more than 0-death sheik tech chases...it's more common for the fox to screw up once than for sheik to not screw up 10 or whatever times in a row.

Just a general point - Fox is also a character that inherently is going to miss techs more than other characters bc if he's suddenly hit his anticipated l cancel will make him miss techs, and its pretty clear that jiggs punishes those worse than sheik.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh how terrible for sheik. If she does however manage to get a grab off on Jiggs, doesn't she just do automatic stuff at every relevant percent?

If Sheik manages to get a lot of grabs off on Puff with all of Puff's amazing natural defenses to grabbing, including being able to kill Sheik at 11% for whiffing the grab, then the Puff is more than likely completely terrible and should probably lose anyway.

It may just be my perception, but sheiks seem to lose to foxes a bit more than puffs do.

This is kind of true, but I'd argue that Sheiks losing to Foxes more than Puffs do is largely because, sans Mew2King, there isn't a top level Sheik player in North America. Everything else you listed is basically "Sheik will fail herself and be awful", which is dumb because Amsah and Tope can both do the tech chase very efficiently, on reaction, but they're just not recorded much.

Sheik doesn't need to hit ten tech chases, that would be absurd. She needs to hit like 4-5. All she really needs to do is get him from 0-40ish in any way she can (regrabs from 0-32 if they don't SDI the jab otherwise just straight up reaction) and then either dash attack / tilt if they're still in the middle of the stage, or D-smash if they go to the edge and gimp. She doesn't need to work for very long at all.

 

[Mogwai]

I pretty much agree with Niko's whole post.

I think Sheik players are learning to fight Fox very well and the matchup's getting better for her, but I still think she loses it because of how unbelievably precise you need to be with all her punishment opportunities. Maybe if Foxes camped Jiggs harder, I could see Sheik being as good or better vs. Fox, but I'll believe that that's all Foxes need to do to start beating Jiggs when I see it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If that's the case, I'd like Hungrybox to get Jman in bracket >__>

Well, I'd like to see that one anyway.

 

[PEEF!]

I think Kels would beat Hungrybox.

Super campy super techy fox doesn't play around with puffs.

 

[Niko45]

Well, I don't play sheik, but I'd imagine it IS pretty hard to do that consistently. Like, lets say you have a 90% success rate on regrabbing each time, which honestly if you actually kept track over the long run I think you'd find is good by anyone's standards. The chance of you regrabbing successfully 6 times (I don't know how many grabs it takes to get to 32 or whatever you need) in a row is only around 50%.

So yea, Sheik will actually "fail herself" because there's too much margin for error.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You need like 3-4. And there are numerous ways to cheat and get easier tech chase follows.

edit: It is not difficult. You have distinct, different animation cues to alert you to when he's going to do something different and you can be INCREDIBLY sloppy with tech chasing his tech roll if you boost grab. The amount of attention you can devote to his tech stand / non-tech because of her boost grab is absurd.

 

[Mogwai]

I think Kels would beat Hungrybox.

Super campy super techy fox doesn't play around with puffs.

I thought the same thing about Swiftbass (especially since he seems to beat up on Darc's puff), but HBox handled him fine at RoM2 (I think that's where they met?).

Again, I'll believe campy Fox ***** Jiggs when I start seeing it, but the closest that I've seen at all recently is ColBol beating HBox.

Maybe I should just make a thread in Melee Discussion with my Tier List and justifications for this sort of debate since I'm ruining both this thread and Axe's right now with Tier talks...

 

[Niko45]

You need like 3-4. And there are numerous ways to cheat and get easier tech chase follows.

edit: It is not difficult. You have distinct, different animation cues to alert you to when he's going to do something different and you can be INCREDIBLY sloppy with tech chasing his tech roll if you boost grab. The amount of attention you can devote to his tech stand / non-tech because of her boost grab is absurd.

You're not listening to me. You're a human being. I understand it doesn't involve any guess work. However, the inevitability of messing up is real. I doubt any sheik regrabs 90% consistently (meaning like 90/100, 180/200).

 

[Ballistics]

Dr Pee Pee when you gonna get some volleying videos up???!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol I don't get to play enough as it is. I don't think I'd do volleying unless I had a lot of time to play with someone.

@Mogwai/KK/Niko: It's an interesting read, so I don't really care if it's in here or not lol.

 

[Lovage]

omg kirby is not worse than ness

have you played silent wolf's kirby

 

[Mogwai]

no I haven't

and boy oh boy, I don't know if it's even possible for me to care less.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I understand it doesn't involve any guess work. However, the inevitability of messing up is real. I doubt any sheik regrabs 90% consistently (meaning like 90/100, 180/200).

Well, if you doubt that anyone can do that, there's no real point on me having this discussion with you.

 

[Alukard]

no I haven't

and boy oh boy, I don't know if it's even possible for me to care less.

LMFAO i miss u mogwai