PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[choknater]

playing a crappier character is definitely a hindrance

but it's doable. just gotta be really on point during important matches

 

[Divinokage]

playing a crappier character is definitely a hindrance

but it's doable. just gotta be really on point during important matches

Ya but I'm simply not suited to play any other character really, Ganon fits my style the most and always had, and probably always will.

 

[FoxLisk]

Dr. PeePee,

I admire your desire to continue improving yourself, but you seem to be adopting an increasingly elitist attitude towards it. I also would advise you to spend some time seriously contemplating whether you are as disdainful of this mechanical play as you think you are, or if you are just agreeing with Mango because he's the best. I say this because you've never said something like, "I dislike this progression in play," it's always "I and mango dislike this progression in play," and it sounds eerily like you just want to feel like you're on the same side as mango.

Also, it seems wrong to disdain mechanical play a month after you beat everyone in the world using it.

 

[Divinokage]

What exactly in finding the truth that is so elitist about it? I don't understand myself..

 

[choknater]

peepee is not all that mechanical lol, he uses tomahawk utilt all day.

anyway, he wants to gravitate toward a sort of idealized playstyle that includes mindgames because that's how he wants to play. at least that's what i'm getting from his posts. also, the cockiness is usually good and can keep someone at the top unless they get really negative about it

ken: i dont like the community *disappear*
m2k: i want to be more consistent in brawl when tournaments hold both games, so im quitting melee at majors (then everyone persuades him to enter melee anyway and he gets top 5 or something and everyone thinks he underperformed)
mango: **** smashboards *drinks and gets 25th with mario*

 

[Bones0]

Everyone is mechanical to some extent. I feel it's actually pretty matchup dependent on how big of a role it plays. Just from Pound 5, PP vs. Hbox seemed very free-flowing because of the increased amount of spacing and the less combo-heavy gameplay. PP vs. Armada, on the other hand, seemed much more "systematic" (can't find the right word because I don't want to imply by any means that there were no "mindgames" going on during the set; clearly there were). Just count how many times PP approached with nair-shine-nair. It's usefulness is backed by good reading and opponent comprehension, but the approach itself is pretty mechanical in the sense that it's a tactic that has (somewhat recently) been developed as a means of obtaining maximum efficiency. That efficiency is evident by the fact that PP almost never got punished after landing an initial nair in a nair-shine-nair, even against M2K who is famous for being grab -> gimp happy. I'd have to say that trying to be exclusive to mindgames or mechanical play is a bad decision either way. They both have their place in the metagame; the relativity of each element is just fluctuating towards mindgames at this point in time. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr. PeePee,

I admire your desire to continue improving yourself, but you seem to be adopting an increasingly elitist attitude towards it. I also would advise you to spend some time seriously contemplating whether you are as disdainful of this mechanical play as you think you are, or if you are just agreeing with Mango because he's the best. I say this because you've never said something like, "I dislike this progression in play," it's always "I and mango dislike this progression in play," and it sounds eerily like you just want to feel like you're on the same side as mango.

Also, it seems wrong to disdain mechanical play a month after you beat everyone in the world using it.

Yeah I expected negative backlash for that post.

While I did beat everyone with such a style, it is not as effective as I would like it to be. Plus, I'd also argue that pretty much everyone I had beaten that was the major competition(save Mango) employed a similar style, so really it became who was doing the same thing better in a way(in a very simplistic way...obviously you can't break such an array of accomplishments down so easily but I hope you understand what I mean).

I am not against "mechanical" play. It has its own pros and cons. What I DON'T like is how everyone is doing it. I'm calling for more diversity in playstyles is all, or maybe an expansion on the play that everyone is trying to do right now.

I use Mango a lot in my writing there because he gave me the idea so I think he deserves credit. Also because having his name on it as well as mine gives it solid backing I feel.

I mean, who knows if I'll truly give the style up, etc but it's a controversial viewpoint that I've been toying with for a while now. You can take it or leave it haha.

 

[Redact]

I'm not getting the slightest hint of elitism here... i think you're just reading some of it a little wrong.

All I can see is humble honesty.

 

[Brookman]

if high level tournament play (meta) is really becoming as "Cookie Cutter" as you make it out to be then that is pretty much a sign that the game is reaching it's peak in gameplay.

Because I haven't made a national level bracket since . . . (cata 3?) I can't really say one way or the other but I do see the highest level of diversity (in character selection) that I've ever seen. With falco/puff/sheik/marth/fox/peach/falcon/samus/climbers/ganon all seeing brackets frequently over the last year.

Can you be more specific about how play-style is 'devolving' or 'degenerating' or whatever?


edit: *shows cata 3 sig*


double edit:

I'd also argue that pretty much everyone I had beaten that was the major competition(save Mango) employed a similar style, so really it became who was doing the same thing better in a way

I recall watching you punish everyone for hitting your shield, over and over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL3jFHZm30o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQSMTKhdsDY

 

[JPOBS]

I agree with much of what Brookman has to say.

What is inherently wrong with the style of play witnessed today? The average skill level of players today is bounds beyond the average level of yesteryear. This much is undeniable.

Whats so bad about people having similar styles of play? Like brookman said, the fact that many many people can see success with relatively similar "mechanical" playstyle, is indicative of the fact that the game is hitting a peak, where every single mistake gets your ruthlessly destroyed by the opponents mechnical response.


But I'm very interested in seeing how PP develops his play even further. Top players are always the one who push the metagame forward, so if you really are deadset on it pp, I'm very intrigued to see the results.

 

[Brookman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BarU4eVipb0

Linked for Mango's commentary.

edit: looking for the time stamp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BarU4eVipb0&t=10m48s


either I missed it or it's not in this set, I was looking for the clip where mango talks about what got him into the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BarU4eVipb0&t=6m36s


got it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BarU4eVipb0&t=8m15s

 

[FoxLisk]

Yikes. Guys, calm down. I just want to make sure PP's still down to earth about this game, I'm not saying I hate the guy

PP, thanks for understanding. I worded my post a little harshly hoping that it would make its point, I just feel like you've suddenly changed your attitude very dramatically. I understand that play is more interesting when it's more player v player, I just think you've kind of overstated it.

Brookman & Jpobs: word, yeah. mechanical play is great and optimal in a lot of cases. and knowing the correct punish for someone touching your shield is very important and all. these things should not be overlooked, but nor should looking to outplay your opponent at the same time as taking optimal punishes and things

 

[Brookman]

winning = out playing. So, no matter how you win . . .


the topic at hand isn't a question of out playing, it's the method that is being used to do so. Basically, BORING your opponent into stupidity.


I'm gona site jman vs. amsah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUu2uvCVtn4


let's not forget the sheer absurdity of Armada's YL vs. Hbox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8twwXHDIVBc

People were CHEERING. .. FOR A TIME-OUT. . .


anyway, for a break from this chat I think everyone deserves a good laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otblkanxcFM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNpao1f5z9Q&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

I think PP should play more like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ1WR6Ov040&feature=autoplay&list=ULyv_UMxO0U8o&index=15&playnext=2

 

[Dark Hart]

Kevin's attitude hasn't changed, he just really wants to beat Mango now

8,000th post Kevin

better feel special

you slept at my house for like 3 hours in 2008 this one time


yea

 

[Lovage]

Yeah I expected negative backlash for that post.

While I did beat everyone with such a style, it is not as effective as I would like it to be. Plus, I'd also argue that pretty much everyone I had beaten that was the major competition(save Mango) employed a similar style, so really it became who was doing the same thing better in a way(in a very simplistic way...obviously you can't break such an array of accomplishments down so easily but I hope you understand what I mean).

I am not against "mechanical" play. It has its own pros and cons. What I DON'T like is how everyone is doing it. I'm calling for more diversity in playstyles is all, or maybe an expansion on the play that everyone is trying to do right now.

I use Mango a lot in my writing there because he gave me the idea so I think he deserves credit. Also because having his name on it as well as mine gives it solid backing I feel.

I mean, who knows if I'll truly give the style up, etc but it's a controversial viewpoint that I've been toying with for a while now. You can take it or leave it haha.

i'm know what ur talking about

a lotta the new players i see nowadays play like ****in robots and have like no style they can call their own. the falcon i played today played like s2j, the puff played like hbox and stab played like you LOL

i feel like the generation of smashers i grew up with were the last of their kind (and me for a while, but i think i play gayer and more technical the better i get LOL)

 

[JPOBS]

*shrugs* i think its kind of a pipedream to want differing playstyles just for the sake of differing playstyles

The reason why puff play like hbox, the reason why falcos play like PP, the reason why marths play like M2k, is because those players have shown us how to be success through their own actions. Everyone wants to get better at this game, and emulating better players is one way to do it.

couple that with the fact that we live in an era now where its easier than ever to have access to knowledge of good players. Youtube has more videos now from every tourny from all coasts. Back in the day you could ony watch a handful of vids from the largest tournies if you were lucky. People these days travel more and more. Regions can share thoughts and experiences on the game more easily and playstyles mesh more and become more homogenous.

Our expansion as a community via videos and travel has paradoxially lead to a homogenizing of playstyles because people more readily have access to "the right answer" to any given situation.

But like in anything else, its only the truely revolutionary and hard workers reach the top, and from there, their influence takes hold.

I don't think its anything to worry about. good cause for discussion though.

 

[Dr Peepee]

if high level tournament play (meta) is really becoming as "Cookie Cutter" as you make it out to be then that is pretty much a sign that the game is reaching it's peak in gameplay.

Because I haven't made a national level bracket since . . . (cata 3?) I can't really say one way or the other but I do see the highest level of diversity (in character selection) that I've ever seen. With falco/puff/sheik/marth/fox/peach/falcon/samus/climbers/ganon all seeing brackets frequently over the last year.

Can you be more specific about how play-style is 'devolving' or 'degenerating' or whatever?


edit: *shows cata 3 sig*


double edit:



I recall watching you punish everyone for hitting your shield, over and over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL3jFHZm30o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQSMTKhdsDY

No it doesn't mean this game is peaking at all. It means people are choosing to play it a certain way just like people in MLG days played it a certain way, that's all.

Degenerating? Nah it's not doing that. It's just evolving in a way I don't really like to see. I guess I just want to see more originality or more creativity but it doesn't look that different these days.

Not everyone can be a crowd pleaser(not what I'm looking for anyway just look at how I play for the most part LOL) but hey I mean even Hbox struck out and did his own thing in a way(though still towards the mechanical end of things but he serves my point well enough here).

And uh, punishing my shield being hit every time it's hit isn't exactly mechanical. It's things like "x beats y so I'll always do that and then if it stops then I use z." You block yourself into a patterned mentality(which everyone does to an extent there is no disputing that just how far it went is the issue) and then it's not like fully adapting to the opponent I feel. Eh, I can't articulate this as well as I want to so I guess I can't blame you for disagreeing haha.

I agree with much of what Brookman has to say.

What is inherently wrong with the style of play witnessed today? The average skill level of players today is bounds beyond the average level of yesteryear. This much is undeniable.

Whats so bad about people having similar styles of play? Like brookman said, the fact that many many people can see success with relatively similar "mechanical" playstyle, is indicative of the fact that the game is hitting a peak, where every single mistake gets your ruthlessly destroyed by the opponents mechnical response.


But I'm very interested in seeing how PP develops his play even further. Top players are always the one who push the metagame forward, so if you really are deadset on it pp, I'm very intrigued to see the results.

Again, nothing INHERENTLY wrong with it, it's just that it's so prevalent and no one seems to be striking out on any new ideas. Also, who's to say that the average skill level of old style play couldn't be introduced and be that much more lethal?

I just don't like the lack of originality I suppose. I feel like Melee has more depth than what the majority of players use it for anymore, but it's so hard to say when we're all doing the same types of things now......

And I have a loooot of work to do. Not enough time haha. We'll see how it turns out though. =)

Yikes. Guys, calm down. I just want to make sure PP's still down to earth about this game, I'm not saying I hate the guy

PP, thanks for understanding. I worded my post a little harshly hoping that it would make its point, I just feel like you've suddenly changed your attitude very dramatically. I understand that play is more interesting when it's more player v player, I just think you've kind of overstated it.

Brookman & Jpobs: word, yeah. mechanical play is great and optimal in a lot of cases. and knowing the correct punish for someone touching your shield is very important and all. these things should not be overlooked, but nor should looking to outplay your opponent at the same time as taking optimal punishes and things

I always overstate everything to get people to change their minds/see a side of things they would ordinarily reject if I came off fairly lol. Neither way seems to work so I guess I'll accept the consequences of this way until I learn to state a point better I suppose.

Getting into position for mechanical punishments more often could be a strong point of original play as well.

Kevin's attitude hasn't changed, he just really wants to beat Mango now

8,000th post Kevin

better feel special

you slept at my house for like 3 hours in 2008 this one time


yea

Well I'm gonna make a post about that LOL but yeah I wanna actually be a respectable top player and really push my own game instead of borrow and steal ideas and really change the way smash is played. We'll see if it happens....

i'm know what ur talking about

a lotta the new players i see nowadays play like ****in robots and have like no style they can call their own. the falcon i played today played like s2j, the puff played like hbox and stab played like you LOL

i feel like the generation of smashers i grew up with were the last of their kind (and me for a while, but i think i play gayer and more technical the better i get LOL)

Thank you! <333

 

[V3ctorMan]

My falco's name spells "style" all over it.... Axe that guy is bad.. hehe, my style's cooler..he copied me../troll

Spoiler

then again It's cuz I play Yoshi eh?

>.<; I <3 Kevin

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm just really mad that I didn't play PP at Pound 5. >__>

 

[Divinokage]

I think some people play too mechanical because for the exact reason that they are trying to copy a top player. They don't understand all the finer points has to why certain things work the way they do... and so it becomes sloppy and not really original. (For example, trying to finish a CG punish Marth vs spacies) If you want your own style then you have to surpass the top players with your own ideas, find ways to break them apart. You know like invent things to catch them off guard or do things they have never seen before. This is how I did it, I just thought to myself all the possibilities for a punish and tried to make it happen given the right situations. For me, it was just about keep battling people until I realize what I did wrong and what I could do better. Hmm.. it's a bit hard to explain actually...

 

[Dr Peepee]

*shrugs* i think its kind of a pipedream to want differing playstyles just for the sake of differing playstyles

The reason why puff play like hbox, the reason why falcos play like PP, the reason why marths play like M2k, is because those players have shown us how to be success through their own actions. Everyone wants to get better at this game, and emulating better players is one way to do it.

couple that with the fact that we live in an era now where its easier than ever to have access to knowledge of good players. Youtube has more videos now from every tourny from all coasts. Back in the day you could ony watch a handful of vids from the largest tournies if you were lucky. People these days travel more and more. Regions can share thoughts and experiences on the game more easily and playstyles mesh more and become more homogenous.

Our expansion as a community via videos and travel has paradoxially lead to a homogenizing of playstyles because people more readily have access to "the right answer" to any given situation.

But like in anything else, its only the truely revolutionary and hard workers reach the top, and from there, their influence takes hold.

I don't think its anything to worry about. good cause for discussion though.

Yes this is pretty much what I would say if I were to argue against myself lol. Still, I wish people would throw off the ideas of better players more often and do their own thing sooner. Honestly it would probably help them more at the end of the day.

Different styles for the sake of different styles is silly, yes, but doing your own thing to some extent comes with its own advantages as well(no one else is ready for your tricks and you can push your own metagame as far as your imagination will allow instead of whatever pro you're watching).

In the end I'm merely hoping things don't become overly defensive honestly(reduces hype unless it's someone camping Hbox or some rare high stakes thing like Amsah vs Jman haha), but I won't pretend I have the power to change an entire metagame like that lol. I will just continue to do my own thing and observe the rest of you guys like I always have. =)

My falco's name spells "style" all over it.... Axe that guy is bad.. hehe, my style's cooler..he copied me../troll

Spoiler

then again It's cuz I play Yoshi eh?

>.<; I <3 Kevin

Haha I respect that <3

I'm just really mad that I didn't play PP at Pound 5. >__>

We saw each other like 50 times though lol XD

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah it was kinda weird, I was like "Oay there's Peepee" like 80 times but we never actually played. I'm trash at this game and DK is adflkj against Falco so it would have been ****, but hey, I'd have liked it.

 

[V3ctorMan]

I wanna Falco ditto Kevin more... I just wanna Falco ditto anybody.....and after you all own me in falco dittos....you have to promise me yoshi dittos k?

<333

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think some people play too mechanical because for the exact reason that they are trying to copy a top player. They don't understand all the finer points has to why certain things work the way they do... and so it becomes sloppy and not really original. (For example, trying to finish a CG punish Marth vs spacies) If you want your own style then you have to surpass the top players with your own ideas, find ways to break them apart. You know like invent things to catch them off guard or do things they have never seen before. This is how I did it, I just thought to myself all the possibilities for a punish and tried to make it happen given the right situations. For me, it was just about keep battling people until I realize what I did wrong and what I could do better. Hmm.. it's a bit hard to explain actually...

It's a pretty broad topic haha. Choosing how you want to play and where you want to take your game....it's no small feat. I mean, from what I understand most people don't plan how they do everything on a large scale and just let things play out naturally, which is always cool. Mike G said he didn't even know he was revolutionizing Peach, he was just trying to get better haha.

Smash improvement is cool. =)

Yeah it was kinda weird, I was like "Oay there's Peepee" like 80 times but we never actually played. I'm trash at this game and DK is adflkj against Falco so it would have been ****, but hey, I'd have liked it.

Haha maybe next time. =)

I wanna Falco ditto Kevin more... I just wanna Falco ditto anybody.....and after you all own me in falco dittos....you have to promise me yoshi dittos k?

<333

LOL my yoshi is butt but okay XD

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

PP, do you ever feel the punish game in ssbm will ever get to the point of MVC2, in which one misstep will equal a dead or near dead stock?

I was watching some of my friendly matches against you and i did a d-tilt which you CCed and I ended up getting comboed --> spiked and on another instance i f-tilted too deep when you were at 80% and I ended up getting comboed hard.

 

[Brookman]

No it doesn't mean this game is peaking at all. It means people are choosing to play it a certain way just like people in MLG days played it a certain way, that's all.

http://www.signaltrend.com/images/Stock_Market_Great_Depression_Graphic_Similarities6.gif

think of it like this.

You are seeing play-style trending in a certain direction and the style at national level has a rippling effect on the local/regional level, as stated by Lovage.

Naturally, play-style displayed by the individuals placing at high levels will be considered "more sound" than the style I invented in my basement yesterday. The Cliche "Often imitated, never reproduced" rings true here, because as much as anyone can try to play like m2k or mango or yourself (pp), for example, they won't have the thought process behind the actions so the best they can do is merely 'shadow' your play style.

@Lovage: How successful are those players you noted? I will hypothesize that they would have to develop their own style to find success on a large scale.

@PP: when you say you are trying to 'head off' this trend you are effectively saying that you want to crush everyone [who are we referring to, anyway?] abusing said style, so the community veers in another direction. If you succeed and create a new model for play style; good or bad, who is to say.

...It's things like "x beats y so I'll always do that and then if it stops then I use z." You block yourself into a patterned mentality... and then it's not like fully adapting to the opponent I feel...

Do you mean to say that you (and the other players you consider to use this "mechanical style") would lose to someone who plays above and beyond this 'x > y > z > x > etc' for lack of ability to "adapt" on a more creative level?

i.e. as you struggle to find a 'counter' for whatever you're seeing right in front of you the opponent is in fact seeing through you on a different level. This reminds me of Mango vs. the ENTIRE bracket (lol) at Pound 3.


ultimately, how much variety can you really expect from characters like falcon/puff/peach etc.

Space animals are really the only characters with enough potential to 'free-skate' IMO. Maybe I'm wrong but. . .



"Marth player X shffls nair, I punish with dash dance and grab"

This is mechanical, yet ever appropriate. Mechanical style is promoted by abuse of game mechanics. IMO

My comment about you punishing people for hitting your shield was directed at your statement of doing the same thing as everyone else, only better.

???

Like I said though, I haven't played in a national level bracket since (07/08). I haven't even attended one, except rom, since pound 3. So my stance here is based on conjecture.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, do you ever feel the punish game in ssbm will ever get to the point of MVC2, in which one misstep will equal a dead or near dead stock?

I was watching some of my friendly matches against you and i did a d-tilt which you CCed and I ended up getting comboed --> spiked and on another instance i f-tilted too deep when you were at 80% and I ended up getting comboed hard.

Mango seems to think so, but I can't say just yet. Low percents allow for a looot of shenanigans lol.

All I can say for sure is that punishments will improve and possibly entail more/different mixups, but as far as true brutal 0-deaths all of the time, ehhh it's debatable. I'm putting in a lot of work on punishment and first hit/movement consistency now, so maybe I'll be able to say with better accuracy in the future.

 

[JPOBS]

holy crap i was just reading brookman's post and i saw his Edit in real time. my mind is blown right now.

 

[choknater]

hahah honestly come to norcal if you guys wanna see innovative play

unfortunately our players are always edged out by socal at regionals and always make 9th at nationals...

but still. LOL

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

honestly this game isnt even fun if you dont live in norcal. take it from me who used to live in norcal but moved to socal

 

[V3ctorMan]

^could always move to AZ, who knows maybe you'd be the next AZ low tier?

^are you up for the challenge^?

 

[Dr Peepee]

http://www.signaltrend.com/images/Stock_Market_Great_Depression_Graphic_Similarities6.gif

think of it like this.

You are seeing play-style trending in a certain direction and the style at national level has a rippling effect on the local/regional level, as stated by Lovage.

Naturally, play-style displayed by the individuals placing at high levels will be considered "more sound" than the style I invented in my basement yesterday. The Cliche "Often imitated, never reproduced" rings true here, because as much as anyone can try to play like m2k or mango or yourself (pp), for example, they won't have the thought process behind the actions so the best they can do is merely 'shadow' your play style.

@Lovage: How successful are those players you noted? I will hypothesize that they would have to develop their own style to find success on a large scale.

@PP: when you say you are trying to 'head off' this trend you are effectively saying that you want to crush everyone [who are we referring to, anyway?] abusing said style, so the community veers in another direction. If you succeed and create a new model for play style; good or bad, who is to say.



Do you mean to say that you (and the other players you consider to use this "mechanical style") would lose to someone who plays above and beyond this 'x > y > z > x > etc' for lack of ability to "adapt" on a more creative level?

i.e. as you struggle to find a 'counter' for whatever you're seeing right in front of you the opponent is in fact seeing through you on a different level. This reminds me of Mango vs. the ENTIRE bracket (lol) at Pound 3.


ultimately, how much variety can you really expect from characters like falcon/puff/peach etc.

Space animals are really the only characters with enough potential to 'free-skate' IMO. Maybe I'm wrong but. . .



"Marth player X shffls nair, I punish with dash dance and grab"

This is mechanical, yet ever appropriate. Mechanical style is promoted by abuse of game mechanics. IMO

My comment about you punishing people for hitting your shield was directed at your statement of doing the same thing as everyone else, only better.

???

Like I said though, I haven't played in a national level bracket since (07/08). I haven't even attended one, except rom, since pound 3. So my stance here is based on conjecture.

I merely want to get knowledge out there so that those who are striving to improve may have a new direction for improvement or possibly allow so that there are more options for those growing players so that there could be different styles emerging in the future. I can't make anyone do anything lol but if I express concern for something then maybe someone will pick up their own way of doing things and carry out a new way to play. "Crushing" some ideal or some way of playing is impossible for me and certainly not my goal.

If I succeed in creating a new playstyle then I will be thoroughly pleased with my smash endeavors and will have left a greater mark than I could've imagined on this community.

Eh maybe one isn't better than another, that's impossible for me to truly say without extensive study and my ability to really play with either style, something I don't do enough of on either end at the moment.

It's not about how you get the first hit right before it happens, it's about how you set up the conditions to get that first hit or even how you continue to punish afterward. DD grab on Nair is cool but how did you trick Marth into Nair'ing in the first place?

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

^could always move to AZ, who knows maybe you'd be the next AZ low tier?

^are you up for the challenge^?

dude that'd be sick to live in arizona! i actually always wondered how good my ness would be if i got AZ low tier practice xD

 

[Bones0]

Concerning newer players emulating the good players, I don't think it's just a matter of more videos being available (although it definitely contributes a lot to that fact). The metagame is simply developing too fast for new players to figure out everything on their own if they want to actually catch up to the current metagame within a realistic time frame. As it is, it could be argued that most people will need 1, 2, maybe even 3 years minimum from when they start playing in order to start competing for a top 16 spot on a national level. That is when you have videos to study, advice from top players, and of course in-game experience against those players to base your own game play off of. It's no wonder everyone plays like robots when they are scrambling to play like robots, let alone rejuvenate the entire metagame and create something new. It's also really encouraged on a personal level. When lesser-skilled players (or even intermediate to advanced players) ask other people for advice, the typical answer is "So-and-so does this in that situation." Perhaps people should start encouraging more advice similar to "You should analyze the problem you're being put in, create a solution to that problem, test it against opponents, revise it to maximize its efficiency, and repeat until you've changed the way OTHER people play the game."

As much as I look up to great players for answers to questions, I DO realize that at some point, if I actually want to advance past them, I will have to realize something on my own. In a game as deep as Melee, you are never going to win simply by mirroring another player with better tech skill or even a huge list of gimmicks that go along with the play style. When I'm playing friendlies, I constantly search for different ways to accomplish the same goal. That's how almost all advancements have been made, both in Melee and in history in general. People have been shield pressuring for years, but you can see a clear difference in shield pressure from '07 to shield pressure today. For many instances, they are not even comparable. I'd bet that if you could go back in time and suggest to people that you could DI away from peoples' shields after attacking to avoid getting shield grabbed, they'd think you were just "trying to be fancy," or you just wanted to "invent something to call your own, regardless of its effectiveness." Go back even further and you could imagine how someone would react a few years after the game came out if you told them Fox and Falco's shine are among the best moves in the game. They'd think you were ludicrous: "That move is worthless; it will never be good." A more recent parallel to this could be Falco's fair. If you could track the number of Falco players using fair a year ago compared to today, I bet it would be an insane difference. I know personally I simply never considered fair a viable move because I was still trying to COPY the basics instead of INVENT them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Concerning newer players emulating the good players, I don't think it's just a matter of more videos being available (although it definitely contributes a lot to that fact). The metagame is simply developing too fast for new players to figure out everything on their own if they want to actually catch up to the current metagame within a realistic time frame. As it is, it could be argued that most people will need 1, 2, maybe even 3 years minimum from when they start playing in order to start competing for a top 16 spot on a national level. That is when you have videos to study, advice from top players, and of course in-game experience against those players to base your own game play off of. It's no wonder everyone plays like robots when they are scrambling to play like robots, let alone rejuvenate the entire metagame and create something new. It's also really encouraged on a personal level. When lesser-skilled players (or even intermediate to advanced players) ask other people for advice, the typical answer is "So-and-so does this in that situation." Perhaps people should start encouraging more advice similar to "You should analyze the problem you're being put in, create a solution to that problem, test it against opponents, revise it to maximize its efficiency, and repeat until you've changed the way OTHER people play the game."

As much as I look up to great players for answers to questions, I DO realize that at some point, if I actually want to advance past them, I will have to realize something on my own. In a game as deep as Melee, you are never going to win simply by mirroring another player with better tech skill or even a huge list of gimmicks that go along with the play style. When I'm playing friendlies, I constantly search for different ways to accomplish the same goal. That's how almost all advancements have been made, both in Melee and in history in general. People have been shield pressuring for years, but you can see a clear difference in shield pressure from '07 to shield pressure today. For many instances, they are not even comparable. I'd bet that if you could go back in time and suggest to people that you could DI away from peoples' shields after attacking to avoid getting shield grabbed, they'd think you were just "trying to be fancy," or you just wanted to "invent something to call your own, regardless of its effectiveness." Go back even further and you could imagine how someone would react a few years after the game came out if you told them Fox and Falco's shine are among the best moves in the game. They'd think you were ludicrous: "That move is worthless; it will never be good." A more recent parallel to this could be Falco's fair. If you could track the number of Falco players using fair a year ago compared to today, I bet it would be an insane difference. I know personally I simply never considered fair a viable move because I was still trying to COPY the basics instead of INVENT them.

Well there's nothing wrong with copying for a while/getting started, but I'm saying there needs to be a cutoff point where people begin to learn on their own(relative to how big of an influence a pro has on their style?) earlier than there is right now. On the whole I agree with you though. Well said. =)

 

[choknater]

coming from an icey guy, i think our current generation's ic's all had to make our eventual breakaways from simple, effective chudat style ic's. so now each successful ic player kinda has his own style and tricks, and i feel like this is more visible in ic's because it's a character that really relies on creativity.

and it wasn't until we all got much better that we realized how good chudat really was, hahaha

 

[Dark Hart]

I feel like the reason things have changed is because of the new level of tech-skill "required" to play this game. But that being said, I don't agree with you, Kevin, since I consider myself to have a very creative non-text book play style, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize that I can just up-throw -> react as Fox vs spacies. The thing is this game has evolved, and since more and more people know how to play, know what works, and have a certain level of tech-skill it seems as though there is less creativity. There's just less of a 'need to figure things out on your own' mentality since so many people have already done it for you. Unfortunately not everyone has the ability to just think about the game and get better, like you Kevin, so we deal with what we have.

Maybe the fact that the game has gotten more popular has something to do with this. DO you really expect everyone to make they're own way nowadays?

 

[Brookman]

I'd also like to point out Brookman won a Falco FFA between PC, Forward and myself which proves he's the best Falco in the world.

scrolled through some of my old topics and found this bad boy.

 

[Divinokage]

I actually thought of something cool... You know in friendlies you train to try new things and stuff and then you have a more tournament mode style in which you simply destroy the opponent as fast as possible.

How can you make the transistion in between the friendly mode and tournament mode efficiently? Because I find whenever I fight someone weak then there's not really any problem, I feel fast and everything works.. but then when you fight someone strong.. I seem to revert to an old style which doesn't work as well since it sucks and it's slow. It's like let's say vs Mango, somehow I was able to summon up a power which exceeded even my own expectations.

There's just so many things I want to use in tournaments that I learned in friendlies but I can't seem to put it in motion in real tournament.. is it because I'm scared? Nervous? That these things happen like that?

 

[Veetaak]

I agree with PP alot in this. And I think that mango is a great example of how you really can play your own style and not just going with the flow in order to be the best. I think that if you play alot like others you can only reach a certain maximum while if you extend your gameplay and when you get innovative in your playstyle you can go even further. Much easier said than done.