PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[clowsui]

are you perpetually offline on AIM? i've wanted to talk for quite some time but you're never online haha

 

[FoxLisk]

kage,

i think a big part of that is confidence. If you know your old style will get you so far but you're not as confident with the new things youve learned, you wont use them in tournament, and then the cycle repeats itself. you have to talk yourself into using all your new ideas in tournaments and seeing if they work. Some of them will crash and burn against strong players and youll eliminate those, and the rest will stay and your new tournament style will emerge.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I feel like the reason things have changed is because of the new level of tech-skill "required" to play this game. But that being said, I don't agree with you, Kevin, since I consider myself to have a very creative non-text book play style, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize that I can just up-throw -> react as Fox vs spacies. The thing is this game has evolved, and since more and more people know how to play, know what works, and have a certain level of tech-skill it seems as though there is less creativity. There's just less of a 'need to figure things out on your own' mentality since so many people have already done it for you. Unfortunately not everyone has the ability to just think about the game and get better, like you Kevin, so we deal with what we have.

Maybe the fact that the game has gotten more popular has something to do with this. DO you really expect everyone to make they're own way nowadays?

If anything, more tech skill could lead to greater innovation since tech skill is merely the medium for the mind's ideas.

And Lucas I'm pretty tired of you telling me not everyone is you bs. People can do it if we raise the bar for them and tell them to jump, but not if we just let them do whatever they felt like doing before.

And yes I would love it to happen but I don't know if it will.

I actually thought of something cool... You know in friendlies you train to try new things and stuff and then you have a more tournament mode style in which you simply destroy the opponent as fast as possible.

How can you make the transistion in between the friendly mode and tournament mode efficiently? Because I find whenever I fight someone weak then there's not really any problem, I feel fast and everything works.. but then when you fight someone strong.. I seem to revert to an old style which doesn't work as well since it sucks and it's slow. It's like let's say vs Mango, somehow I was able to summon up a power which exceeded even my own expectations.

There's just so many things I want to use in tournaments that I learned in friendlies but I can't seem to put it in motion in real tournament.. is it because I'm scared? Nervous? That these things happen like that?

This is a pretty big thing haha. You can argue a lot of different things for this(and maybe I'll go through all of my mind's ideas on it when I have more time), but in your case, like most people, friendlies are used to come up with new ideas to try in tournament. In tournament, you only get a little bit of time to figure out how to win, so you can't be busy trying silly things or oddities in a matchup. You have to go with what you learned in previous friendlies and a constricted style because you're not focusing on learning or having fun. You have to focus on the opponent more so you'll be doing less "creative" things yourself. I mean, it could also be pressure or the fact that you don't know enough tricks to use in a tournament setting or any number of things, but yeah it doesn't just happen to you lol and I certainly experience the same thing(though I hope to get over it to some degree later).

are you perpetually offline on AIM? i've wanted to talk for quite some time but you're never online haha

Yeah I'm always invisible lol. I may start actually going offline more but eh we'll see lol.

 

[Divinokage]

kage,

i think a big part of that is confidence. If you know your old style will get you so far but you're not as confident with the new things youve learned, you wont use them in tournament, and then the cycle repeats itself. you have to talk yourself into using all your new ideas in tournaments and seeing if they work. Some of them will crash and burn against strong players and youll eliminate those, and the rest will stay and your new tournament style will emerge.

I'm sure whatever I try in friendlies work because I want to eventually use these things consistently in tournament.. It's new things that will give me the edge towards other players and it's the only way to improve my style even more. But I think I choke in tournament to some degree too and im sure everyone does. It's something I definitely want to overcome and it'll allow me to perhaps surpass more players if I can put this in motion for real. Believe me it's crazy. =)

 

[Brookman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5208wj6nIc&feature=feedu


and etc.

I dig the


'....' tag

 

[Dr Peepee]

My Fox LOL

Good motivation for me to post more about different characters.

 

[Dark Hart]

kevin, I'm gonna pull a Keith, and just say

I really don't think you understood my post at all

since I don't understand your response at all

 

[Divinokage]

It's like going from Ganon to Falcon... I CAN'T CONTROL IT!!!!!

 

[prog]

It's like going from Ganon to Falcon... I CAN'T CONTROL IT!!!!!

ok dark phoenix.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

ok dark phoenix.

lol kage's been saying the 'i can't control it' for a few days now, exactly what i think everytime. ****in dark kage.

 

[Dark Hart]

Kevin I don't get it, explain

 

[Ocean]

lucas.

shut up.

 

[Dark Hart]

Kyle it's okay

he explained it to me

 

[TheDekuNut]

pp you're good. you do look at your opponent.
i found this so funny http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAB-FQ_Qs2w&feature=player_detailpage#t=8m58s

you're just like "nah" and walk off the the platform

props for goin marth vs. shiek that ish is hard.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Haha thanks =)

and yeah I like DD'ing which is kinda tough on platforms LOL XD

That matchup is doable and I think I could've definitely beaten M2K's sheik with my Marth but I need a little more experience+consistency first I think. I was playing pretty well for the most part that set so I have no regrets about losing.

 

[Mahone]

I actually thought of something cool... You know in friendlies you train to try new things and stuff and then you have a more tournament mode style in which you simply destroy the opponent as fast as possible.

How can you make the transistion in between the friendly mode and tournament mode efficiently? Because I find whenever I fight someone weak then there's not really any problem, I feel fast and everything works.. but then when you fight someone strong.. I seem to revert to an old style which doesn't work as well since it sucks and it's slow. It's like let's say vs Mango, somehow I was able to summon up a power which exceeded even my own expectations.

There's just so many things I want to use in tournaments that I learned in friendlies but I can't seem to put it in motion in real tournament.. is it because I'm scared? Nervous? That these things happen like that?

You have to just not be afraid to lose. People don't realize that you have to lose a lot if you want to be creative and get better overall. I find that most people just play extremely safe in tournament and just get good at playing safe, rather than getting better.

I am very guilty of that as well.... in the past i have had people roll into me and not taken the rest because i used to play so ridiculously safe, since i focus so much on winning. Even in the last tournament i went to, i missed lava->rest twice since i thought too much about the risk reward... and i jab reset Drpeepee and then just stared at him and only got a grab

HOWEVER.... like 3 weeks ago, i was at a tournament where i had to play my friend, and i really didn't want to beat him, because i thought he had a much better chance of winning the tournament, since i always get ***** by Chu, so i went into the game not caring if i won (as a side note, he beat me in a close set the last tourney we played at).

Game 1 i played amazing with puff and beat him, and then game two I went my secondary falco (which normally is garbage) and beat him while playing the best i've ever have.

The reason for this i think, is because i was planning on forfeiting to him after the games anyway (which i did, and for those interested, he got to winners finals, but lost to chu ). You need to not focus on winning, or focus on beating someone (in your case mango), because that will just create pressure that will cause you to mess up tech skill and make you feel slow....

Instead you need to just be confident in your abilities and BE THE WARRIOR!!

I wish i could take my own advice, but its hard.... im already planning on wasting my next tournament by requesting to be on the same side of the bracket as Dop (a peach that has knocked me out 3 times in the last 2 tournaments ive been to in NC), and then forfeiting and then following him into losers and pulling that kage special, double eliminating him.

Kevin I don't get it, explain

I feel like you talk as if you know anything about this game, and then use the fact that drpeepee lives in the same state as you as some sort of proof that you do...

I have no idea why i posted that, but it happened, oh well.

If anything, more tech skill could lead to greater innovation since tech skill is merely the medium for the mind's ideas.

And Lucas I'm pretty tired of you telling me not everyone is you bs. People can do it if we raise the bar for them and tell them to jump, but not if we just let them do whatever they felt like doing before.

And yes I would love it to happen but I don't know if it will.



This is a pretty big thing haha. You can argue a lot of different things for this(and maybe I'll go through all of my mind's ideas on it when I have more time), but in your case, like most people, friendlies are used to come up with new ideas to try in tournament. In tournament, you only get a little bit of time to figure out how to win, so you can't be busy trying silly things or oddities in a matchup. You have to go with what you learned in previous friendlies and a constricted style because you're not focusing on learning or having fun. You have to focus on the opponent more so you'll be doing less "creative" things yourself. I mean, it could also be pressure or the fact that you don't know enough tricks to use in a tournament setting or any number of things, but yeah it doesn't just happen to you lol and I certainly experience the same thing(though I hope to get over it to some degree later).



Yeah I'm always invisible lol. I may start actually going offline more but eh we'll see lol.

More tech skill does lead to more creativity for the reason you stated. I think what he meant was tech skill that is related to like autocombos, like the fact that waveshining exists makes the followup of a shine at zero against fox somewhat solved, but i feel like situations like that are very rare in the grand scheme of this game and people just use those examples as excuses to not be creative.

As for the everyone isn't you thing, again that is just people finding excuses for why they are awful.

For the bolded part, i have always thought that a problem with our tournament ruleset is that it is only a bo3. I don't think the game is nearly as good as it could be because of this. Reads like mango's rest on armada's roll wouldn't happen in a bo3 set because certain situations don't come up enough for you to get solid reads on the opponent. I think we should do a bo5 because then you could implement much more strategy....

One example would be purposefully not punishing a certain tech habit when you have a large lead, so that later you can take advantage of it when you need it. Obviously situations like this can come up in bo3 sets, but i find that it is not worth the chance that the situation won't come up again, so i just throw away the bait and punish accordingly.

I know that was really confusing, but i basically mean that a certain amount of the lack of mind games that we see in competitive play today come from the fact that players don't get enough time to figure out there opponents' habits.

A better example is falcon fox, which i always felt was too random and unfair for falcon, since the first game you don't have any read on your opponent yet, so you have to spend the time learning your opponent, and since tech chasing is so crucial in that matchup, I could easily see a falcon winning a bo5 against a fox, whereas they would lose the bo3.

Is any of this making any sense? It's 6:30am so im sorry if it doesn't....

Also, drpp i think you are in the exact wrong place to talk about mindgames... you will notice that your hero mango is not on this site, and that the majority of people on this site are here not to be creative, but to learn how to be M2k or you, so you should just keep in mind the bias you are getting.....

The community still has plently of creativity, at G6, the top people were you, m2k, merc, yay, dop, and lozr.... and in my mind all those players are very different and have very creative playstyles.

 

[Dr Peepee]

More tech skill does lead to more creativity for the reason you stated. I think what he meant was tech skill that is related to like autocombos, like the fact that waveshining exists makes the followup of a shine at zero against fox somewhat solved, but i feel like situations like that are very rare in the grand scheme of this game and people just use those examples as excuses to not be creative.

As for the everyone isn't you thing, again that is just people finding excuses for why they are awful.

For the bolded part, i have always thought that a problem with our tournament ruleset is that it is only a bo3. I don't think the game is nearly as good as it could be because of this. Reads like mango's rest on armada's roll wouldn't happen in a bo3 set because certain situations don't come up enough for you to get solid reads on the opponent. I think we should do a bo5 because then you could implement much more strategy....

One example would be purposefully not punishing a certain tech habit when you have a large lead, so that later you can take advantage of it when you need it. Obviously situations like this can come up in bo3 sets, but i find that it is not worth the chance that the situation won't come up again, so i just throw away the bait and punish accordingly.

I know that was really confusing, but i basically mean that a certain amount of the lack of mind games that we see in competitive play today come from the fact that players don't get enough time to figure out there opponents' habits.

A better example is falcon fox, which i always felt was too random and unfair for falcon, since the first game you don't have any read on your opponent yet, so you have to spend the time learning your opponent, and since tech chasing is so crucial in that matchup, I could easily see a falcon winning a bo5 against a fox, whereas they would lose the bo3.

Is any of this making any sense? It's 6:30am so im sorry if it doesn't....

Also, drpp i think you are in the exact wrong place to talk about mindgames... you will notice that your hero mango is not on this site, and that the majority of people on this site are here not to be creative, but to learn how to be M2k or you, so you should just keep in mind the bias you are getting.....

The community still has plently of creativity, at G6, the top people were you, m2k, merc, yay, dop, and lozr.... and in my mind all those players are very different and have very creative playstyles.

I'd be down for bo5s if tournaments could still finish on time lol.

Mango wouldn't be helpful about mindgames anyway and probably tell me I don't get it. XD

While I know that people aren't coming here to be creative, it is not necessarily what I'm shooting for either. Creativity in maybe a....diversity sense is what I'm going for. People trying their own things(which can be creative or end up dull like Bair spam lol but at least it's new or unique). I understand not everyone is about that, and top players could even have a fair influence on the styles of developing players, but I feel like players today just need to have some emphasis placed on doing their own thing to some degree. Smash is still free-form enough despite the techy, metagame "necessities" that people need in order to just keep up these days.

 

[Deleted member]

you should get on aim sometime, let's talk about your marth. iirc i told you i'd help you evaluate it once you had some videos up and...now you do

 

[Walt]

Even people are copying a style that is effective and understand why they are doing something at least it's not the set combos that exist in traditional 2D fighters. Nothing like getting hit by some huge counterhit move in a 2D fighter and knowing exactly how much damage they can do to you and if you are already dead before the second hit even lands. I'm 100% positive that no matter how static and set options are made in smash it will always require more active thinking or active feeling(depending on the player) than other games.

 

[Divinokage]

@Mahone, I'm not afraid to lose.. it's just that I guess the strength of a better player gets to me more than anything, I really want to beat them and I guess it could cause some problems. And ya confidence.. though at some point this is a lot less of a factor for me at this point.. before I would say yes having low confidence would definitely make you hesitate some finishers for combos.. or make you shield for no reason because you are scared etc.. But now it's not an issue, I'm pretty confident in my abilities to defeat anyone. I really want to get Top 5 at Genesis 2. =)

Edit: I guess I have to find a way to deal with the pressure of awesome players and then I could unlock my greatest potential if I do.. =P

 

[Dr Peepee]

you should get on aim sometime, let's talk about your marth. iirc i told you i'd help you evaluate it once you had some videos up and...now you do

I would have responded to your aim but I was in between classes and studying for a quiz in the other class lol. Hit me up. =)

Even people are copying a style that is effective and understand why they are doing something at least it's not the set combos that exist in traditional 2D fighters. Nothing like getting hit by some huge counterhit move in a 2D fighter and knowing exactly how much damage they can do to you and if you are already dead before the second hit even lands. I'm 100% positive that no matter how static and set options are made in smash it will always require more active thinking or active feeling(depending on the player) than other games.

Which is why I always advocate people learning their own stuff when I teach them, since whatever they come up with will be "their own" and make more sense to them than whatever I tell them unless they get stuck obviously haha.

But yeah I agree.

 

[FoxLisk]

I'd be down for bo5s if tournaments could still finish on time lol.

Mango wouldn't be helpful about mindgames anyway and probably tell me I don't get it. XD

While I know that people aren't coming here to be creative, it is not necessarily what I'm shooting for either. Creativity in maybe a....diversity sense is what I'm going for. People trying their own things(which can be creative or end up dull like Bair spam lol but at least it's new or unique). I understand not everyone is about that, and top players could even have a fair influence on the styles of developing players, but I feel like players today just need to have some emphasis placed on doing their own thing to some degree. Smash is still free-form enough despite the techy, metagame "necessities" that people need in order to just keep up these days.

just use the word "innovative" instead of "creative." It more accurately represents what you want from the community, and will save you the trouble of re-explaining yourself ever other post

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh, alright I'm cool with that lol.

 

[Mogwai]

I invented this new thing last night at PC's house where I jab peach and eat 60% from a dsmash

 

[FoxLisk]

I invented this new thing last night at PC's house where I jab peach and eat 60% from a dsmash

been doin that since '06 nyukka

 

[choknater]

i wanna play a good falco lol, i havent played a good one since zhu like 2 years ago

norcal's best falcos are pretty free

i havent played falcomist in a while but i'd imagine he'd go marth

pp come to norcal where people will find a way to approach you and where 16 year olds will beat you in friendlies, and where all the "randoms" are soooooo good (and asian)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol I'd love to go to Norcal sometime.

Genesis for starters hopefully. =p

 

[Mahone]

I invented this new thing last night at PC's house where I jab peach and eat 60% from a dsmash

Now that i play falco, im inventing **** left and right....

i noticed that when shield pressuring, if you shine and then jump and quickly shine again, it will hit them if they try to grab you, so i just do 10 of those shines every time i shield pressure, and its like gg yo

 

[choknater]

hm yeah. at G2 i'd definitely try to get a friendly or two in with ya heheh, though your body might be in high demand!

i'll just try to make it far enough in bracket to face you

 

[Bones0]

Now that i play falco, im inventing **** left and right....

i noticed that when shield pressuring, if you shine and then jump and quickly shine again, it will hit them if they try to grab you, so i just do 10 of those shines every time i shield pressure, and its like gg yo

...multi-shining? LOL so original

You also invented that crazy new laser mindgames where you just refuse to fast fall. Too good. I'll never be able to compete with someone who shoots lasers slower than consecutive Warlock Punches.

 

[JPOBS]

slow lasers are actually a good mixup on people fishing for powershields.

 

[Mahone]

hm yeah. at G2 i'd definitely try to get a friendly or two in with ya heheh, though your body might be in high demand!

i'll just try to make it far enough in bracket to face you

wtf?

slow lasers are actually a good mixup on people fishing for powershields.

That's exactly why i do it, but these scrubs can't understand that cuz they are not on my level, JPOBS knows whats up.

 

[Mogwai]

ain't you seen PP? he's sexy as ****.

 

[Dark Hart]

I feel like you talk as if you know anything about this game, and then use the fact that drpeepee lives in the same state as you as some sort of proof that you do...

I have no idea why i posted that, but it happened, oh well.

wow

taking posts out of context much?

I was stalking Kevin posting that phrase anywhere I knew he'd see it in order for him to explain something that even had nothing to do with video games to me, as a joke XD

But I mean sure, I'll go find a post where you say something ******** and then tell you you know nothing about Melee and the only reason you think you do is because you're only person who posts on the jiggz boards... but I'm not going to.

so yea, **** you Mahone

crack rocks

 

[Divinokage]

Heh it's pretty easy to dramatize anything.. just like he thought that Kage the Warrior is afraid to lose!?!?! Pfffftttt...

 

[tarheeljks]

i wanna play a good falco lol, i havent played a good one since zhu like 2 years ago

norcal's best falcos are pretty free

i havent played falcomist in a while but i'd imagine he'd go marth

pp come to norcal where people will find a way to approach you and where 16 year olds will beat you in friendlies, and where all the "randoms" are soooooo good (and asian)

come to the next sj tourney and get ***** by lord then lol. sfat's falco is also really good but he usually goes fox obv

 

[FoxLisk]

...multi-shining? LOL so original

You also invented that crazy new laser mindgames where you just refuse to fast fall. Too good. I'll never be able to compete with someone who shoots lasers slower than consecutive Warlock Punches.

azen doesnt fast fall lasers when he plays falco... just to let you know...

 

[ArcNatural]

I feel that the best player to bring up in terms of innovative/creative play before Mango would have to be KDJ. He was and always will be the player I felt was the most random player and a style I strove to be like. I never studied his vids and use his style (save for upthrow shine wavedash upsmash :D) but just the concept of random.

I think you can really only start going back to being truly creative when you finally BELIEVE you are technically sound. I forget the exact quote but somewhere Mango said:

"You should practice tech skill until you aren't afraid that it will cost you the game, no one should have that limit their play"

And I believe this to be very true. I currently struggle with certain basic consistencies that I've only now started to work on while I see players that I typically beat just have a much better technical foundation.

I remember I told Zoso a long time ago that I wanted to learn shine nair pressure with Fox simply to do it so I can force reactions from it. It took me several months to get down, and to this day I still struggle NOT to spam shine nair pressure because of some mental block that makes me want to make sure I can do it until they roll/escape without missing an l-cancel or shine or nair.

I think on the whole I am a fairly innovative player, it's ironic that I pine for flashy technical consistency rather than true technical basics which I'm only now really trying to obtain.

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's definitely a big reason why I don't try things like double shine or phantasm cancel lol even though that stuff is good I always worry I'll mess it up(never learned the timing either lol).

Back to working on grounded shine OOS and pulling my hair out.....

 

[choknater]

wow that would be godlike if you added that into your game

replicate is the only person i know who actually uses it