PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Brookman]

The more I watch your marth the more impressed I am with your play style.

 

[leffen]

shine waveland -> shine isnt punishable by most characters if done nicely ( hit with bottom of shine, waveland behind them -> shine ).

 

[Wenbobular]

You're wavelanding, of course that can be punished ...
It's just that a lot of people aren't expecting it far enough in advance to react by just shield grabbing you immediately after the shine, but it's by no means unpunishable
Even if you land behind them a lot of characters have a decent enough move OoS to hit you

 

[leffen]

No. L2framedata :>


1.Shine
2.Shield hitlag
3. Shield hitlag
4. Shield hitlag
5. Shield Hitlag
6. *shine lag* + Shield stun
7. *Shine lag*
8. *jump*
9. Start waveland
10
11
12
13
14
15 Shield stun ends
16 grab / w/e starts
17
18
19
20
21 Shine hits
22
23 (Grab would've come out on this frame)


so yeah, get frame data'd

 

[Strong Badam]

so shine oos, buffer roll, buffer spotdodge would have worked.

 

[leffen]

Shine oos is really hard to do frame perfectly that fast... and you pressed R just a few frames ago so you will tech it automatically :D

I usually try to mixup with either wavelanding away and bait their oos option, or just shine and wait for it :>

 

[Wenbobular]

...Shine has 15 frames of shieldstun?
I have a hard time believing this frame data because if it's 15 frames of shield stun Falco could break your shield with grounded doubleshines ... which he can't. Both Fox and Falco's doubleshines on shield can be buffer-rolled out of (fairly certain).
So yeah, calling BS on "getting frame data'd" until someone else wants to confirm this.

 

[leffen]

******, learn what hit lag is please. The data was directly gathered from the falco frame data thread, go read it.
And double shining cant be rolled out of, jeez.

 

[Wenbobular]

~_~
Alright you win

 

[Beat!]

Too much hate D:

 

[Wenbobular]

I'm tired / a frame data noob
I'm sure leffen has my best interests at heart

 

[Brookman]

double shine can't be rolled out of ?? ? ? ?

what?

 

[Wenbobular]

Frame data man says so, he must be right

 

[leffen]

by scotu: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=109595 look it up.



all rolls take 4 frames before invincibility, multishining with falco only leaves a 2 frame window .
Fox has 1, which means you can never shield break with multishines if your opponent just releases the shield button.

Im so tired of ppl not knowing this and assuming multishines is a gift of god or something lol.

 

[Wenbobular]

I assumed it was less good than it was

 

[leffen]

was talking bout ppl in general thinking fox / falco can shield break with shine lol.

 

[Wenbobular]

I always thought you could roll out of it
O well
Good infoz
I guess practically you can roll out of it haha.

 

[Strong Badam]

you can't roll out of double shine, however you can shield smash DI it and be out of range of the shine.

 

[Divinokage]

was talking bout ppl in general thinking fox / falco can shield break with shine lol.

You definitely can if you aim it right. If spacies can master Kage special then omg... lol.

Edit: Wait.. shield break? like destroying the shield?

 

[_wzrd]

kage special??

ps this thread is great(mostly)

 

[Wenbobular]

He's referring to delaying Ganon's Dair so you shield stab and getting it mixed up with shield breaking

 

[SSBM_or_GTFO]

Couldn't you shield break with moving multishines? If you were able to perform enough in a row.

If you don't break the shield, wouldn't you shield stab them?

 

[Divinokage]

He's referring to delaying Ganon's Dair so you shield stab and getting it mixed up with shield breaking

Well I don't limit that technique to only the dair, I try to use it with every move.. There's way to aim certain moves to go through full shields completely. Some moves are obviously better at doing that. I've gotten through Marth's full shield with Bair when I aimed it at his head as an another example. It's part of my own metagame.

Like I've shield stabbed people with Falco's shine facing backwards while I was at the max range of the shine where it hits.

 

[Bones0]

I don't see why it would matter that you were facing backwards... is that relevant?

 

[Divinokage]

Idk, to me the hitbox of hitting someone backwards seems slightly different.

 

[Bones0]

Idk, to me the hitbox of hitting someone backwards seems slightly different.

Oh wow, never noticed how disjointed it was on the back. It was too hard to tell from the gif so I just used a well-timed Alt+PrintScreen. :D

 

[Divinokage]

Using the hitbox in various ways like that can be pretty fun and unique. I like it, just like actually going for like an overshoot reverse knee on a shield and it still hits for example. =P

 

[JPOBS]

No. L2framedata :>
so yeah, get frame data'd

No, you are absolutely wrong. That is not how hitlag works. Hitlag takes places within shieldstun. It does not "add" to sheild stun and give 15 frames before the person can act out of shield.

here is a perfect Fox pillar as calculated by Kirbykaze, note how hitlag takes place within the 8 frames of shield stun, not before. the first actionable frame after a shine is 8, not 15.
01 - Shine 1 hitlag
02 - hitlag
03 - hitlag
04 - hitlag
05 -
06 -
07 - Jump 1
08 - Jump 2
09 - Jump 3
10 - Dair 1
11 - Dair 2
12 - Dair 3
13 - Dair 4
14 - Dair 5 hitlag
15 - hitlag 2
16 - hitlag 3
17 - hitlag 4
18 - Dair 6
19 - Dair 7
20 - Dair 8 hitlag
21 - hitlag
22 - hitlag
23 - hitlag
24 - Dair 9
25 - Dair 10
26 - Dair 11 hitlag
27 - hitlag
28 - hitlag
29 - hitlag
30 - Dair 12
31 - Dair 13
32 - Dair 14 hitlag
33 - hitlag
34 - hitlag
35 - hitlag
36 - Dair 15
37 - L cancel 1
38 - L cancel 2
39 - L cancel 3
40 - L cancel 4
41 - L cancel 5
42 - L cancel 6
43 - L cancel 7
44 - L cancel 8
45 - L cancel 9


So i don;t know what else you were trying to say, but your math is wrong, which probably means your data on which frame the grab can start and end is wrong but im in class and won't look at it right now

 

[leffen]

Yeahhh I found that out shortly after I posted it lol >_>

Im used to writing shield stun as the frames where you can act and they cant for extra clarity, sorry >_>.

 

[JPOBS]

Some quick math


01 - Shine 1 hitlag
02 - hitlag
03 - hitlag
04 - hitlag
05 -
06 -
07 - Jump 1
08 - Start waveland
09 - Grab starts
10 -
11 -
12 -
13 -
14 -
15 - Grab comes out
16 -
17 - waveland ends
18 - shine

so yea theres a pretty big gap where you could be grabbed even if they aren't frame perfect, they actually have room for error lol

one thing is though, idk if the waveland would start the frame after the jump because of time it take you to reach the platform so i'll wait for Mogwai or KK to come in here and shout at me.

in any case, that would only further the gap of punish-ability. if anyone sees something wrong with this please corrct me but im pretty sure this is -close- to accurate.

edit: edited for justice
4000th post LOL

 

[Mogwai]

uhhh, well, the frame when you start wavelanding depends on how close to the platform you were when you started the airdodge, which we can probably assume would be close enough to get there in 1 frame. but yea, as far as I can tell your work looks correct there and it matches with my experience that states that shine -> waveland is always grabbable by 7 frame grabbers.

I like to condition people with shine -> double jump dair in situations where I think they'll have enough time to shield and then mix it up to shine -> waveland -> shine pressure later.

 

[mers]

Everything in Melee can be punished. Nothing is perfectly safe.

I think if people started accepting this principle more, discussions like these might be a little more productive. Instead of searching for the "perfect" shield pressure or shine trick or whatever, we could work on talking about how to think about the game while you're playing. I'd love to hear discussion from people better than me (aka everyone) about how to read your opponent, or how to make yourself harder to read, or something like that.

I'm not saying that knowing how punishable a certain option is is a bad thing. But it seems to me like people get very caught up in meaningless details.

Maybe this is somewhat related to what PeePee has been saying recently. All we do is mimic each other and play like robots, and this is a problem. We need to be learning to play on our own, and sharing philosophical stuff instead.

The most helpful posts I've ever read on SWF have been from players like Cactuar, Taj, and Wobbles, and they're always posts about thinking or strategy rather than specific attack/defense choices. I don't think they're inherently more suited to that kind of thinking than we are. They just understand that the game is between the minds of two players. It's no accident that they're better than most of us.

This kind of became a confusing rant. Oh well.

 

[Wenbobular]

O hey, I guess I'm not a ****** then.
^_^

 

[Brookman]

was talking bout ppl in general thinking fox / falco can shield break with shine lol.

@mers: I completely understand what you're getting it. Recently, a friend of a friend started playing this game. My friend basically said "as long as you always do this and then this, you'll be good."

The this and this happen to be "nair and then shine" So needless to say, there is no depth to new kid A's strategy, he wasn't taught that there is depth between your action and your opponents reaction. Like, if he really hits that nair shine vs shields always eventually people will stop trying to shield grab. Unfortunately for new kid A, he's not going to take advantage of this by grabbing or using other mix ups to coax people out of their shields for free hits.. . . . he's just gona keep doin his thing.

There are no absolutes when it comes to playing vs other people, only theory in motion.

(i suppose sheik's chain grab is an absolute but that's game mechanics more than pvp; you get what I'm saying tho, I'm sure. )

 

[Mogwai]

for fear of getting too defensive, all I'm gonna say is that acting like a mindless scrub and knowing what's safe vs. shield grab are 2 completely unrelated things.

 

[Brookman]

wait, who is shield grabbing again?

See, I remember, back in like 05, how easy fox players had it cause people still tried to shield grab the nair. Now people just sit in shield and do **** after the shine comes out.

Similarly, Have you ever tried that sheik/marth trick where you hit peoples shield and side step the shield grab? If you have, you probably noticed something: IT DOESN'T WORK AS FOX/FALCO. Why? People are expecting you to SHINE when you aerial their shield. I mean, this is conditioning on a community-wide scale.

$0.02

The reward is probably not as high with falco as it would be with fox. Similarly, the risk vs some characters may outweigh the reward. However, strictly ignoring the potential to abuse a blocking opponent on the basis that it "isn't safe" is laughable. (lol)

 

[JPOBS]

anyone on a platform that isnt falco and has a 7 frame grab

 

[Mogwai]

wait, who is shield grabbing again?

See, I remember, back in like 05, how easy fox players had it cause people still tried to shield grab the nair. Now people just sit in shield and do **** after the shine comes out.

Similarly, Have you ever tried that sheik/marth trick where you hit peoples shield and side step the shield grab? If you have, you probably noticed something: IT DOESN'T WORK AS FOX/FALCO. Why? People are expecting you to SHINE when you aerial their shield. I mean, this is conditioning on a community-wide scale.

$0.02

The reward is probably not as high with falco as it would be with fox. Similarly, the risk vs some characters may outweigh the reward. However, strictly ignoring the potential to abuse a blocking opponent on the basis that it "isn't safe" is laughable. (lol)

you're clearly missing my point. all I'm trying to say is that knowing that you have a frame advantage/disadvantage when doing something is valuable information and just because it's just a piece of a larger puzzle doesn't mean that there isn't worth in discussing how frame perfect actions match up.

like, I'm happy that people are broadening their horizons of thinking about the game because DrPP told them to, but that doesn't suddenly make knowing fundamentals and frame data worthless. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too deeply into this, but I just sense that the mers response is showing that he thinks the discussion has no value and is forcing people to think about the game in a very linear way and that's just not the case. Do what you wanna with the information, but there is intrinsic value in knowing that the fastest possible shine -> waveland -> shine leaves a large enough frame window for most characters to shield grab.

 

[Fernandez]

with what / by who/ videos?

i never see it get punished. Logic tells me it should be pretty punishable but I never experience getting punished for it or see it in videos so im like....wtf

you can just jump out, or buffer roll if you can't time the jump =)

myabe ill look for a video example later

 

[mers]

you're clearly missing my point. all I'm trying to say is that knowing that you have a frame advantage/disadvantage when doing something is valuable information and just because it's just a piece of a larger puzzle doesn't mean that there isn't worth in discussing how frame perfect actions match up.

like, I'm happy that people are broadening their horizons of thinking about the game because DrPP told them to, but that doesn't suddenly make knowing fundamentals and frame data worthless. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too deeply into this, but I just sense that the mers response is showing that he thinks the discussion has no value and is forcing people to think about the game in a very linear way and that's just not the case. Do what you wanna with the information, but there is intrinsic value in knowing that the fastest possible shine -> waveland -> shine leaves a large enough frame window for most characters to shield grab.

I don't mean to claim that the discussion has no value at all. I get that exploration of the game mechanics is really important, and to some extent you have to analyze any kind of new trick to see if it is worthwhile to implement. I just hate when the discussion turns into "super frame perfect bros."

I'm just trying to say that as a whole, our community focuses too much on that stuff. There's a place for it, but I believe it would be more beneficial to, idk, try to deeply analyze just why Mango is so good. Obviously Mango isn't good because he uses the best frame perfect shine tricks all the time, and his tricks are better than everyone else's. He's good because he is better at "Mango vs. opponent," not "Mango vs. Melee."

That's just one example of a valuable conversation idea that I think we're ignoring.

I also don't want to tell people what to talk about. Obviously you all can talk about whatever you want and whatever you think will help you. I'm just suggesting that most of us could improve more effectively if we changed the focus of our discussion. Make of it what you will.