PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

At the risk of pooping on mers's point that we should focus on more strategic elements (I agree), does anyone know the frames for Falco's waveland from the edge and how much invincibility he has?

 

[Divinokage]

Ya everything is punishable of course.. but obviously some combos are garanteed given the right DI reads. Though the way you punish things is how unique styles get created... and ya that is a problem for most since you think like one thing SHOULD be punished by that ONE other thing.. it's not completely wrong but different things can lead to more devastating things.

 

[Brookman]

you're clearly missing my point. all I'm trying to say is that knowing that you have a frame advantage/disadvantage when doing something is valuable information and just because it's just a piece of a larger puzzle doesn't mean that there isn't worth in discussing how frame perfect actions match up.

like, I'm happy that people are broadening their horizons of thinking about the game because DrPP told them to, but that doesn't suddenly make knowing fundamentals and frame data worthless. I dunno, maybe I'm reading too deeply into this, but I just sense that the mers response is showing that he thinks the discussion has no value and is forcing people to think about the game in a very linear way and that's just not the case. Do what you wanna with the information, but there is intrinsic value in knowing that the fastest possible shine -> waveland -> shine leaves a large enough frame window for most characters to shield grab.

So, basically you and I were on completely different pages here. My post was pretty much independent of the shine waveland chat.

 

[Mogwai]

I don't mean to claim that the discussion has no value at all. I get that exploration of the game mechanics is really important, and to some extent you have to analyze any kind of new trick to see if it is worthwhile to implement. I just hate when the discussion turns into "super frame perfect bros."

...which is exactly not what this conversation was and is exactly why I'm sorta confused by your whole tirade. Someone talked about a technique, and then the frame data was brought up and discussed. How is this at all turning into super frame perfect bros? Frame data and calculating advantages pretty much has to assume frame perfection, as 0 frames of ****ing up is just a better base line than anything else. That doesn't mean we're talking about the same sort of useless **** as discussing how Bowser should be top tier because he has a move that has an invicibility frame on frame 1 and an invulnerable ledgestall. This is practical frame data and is a perfect example of when we should be analyzing this sort of thing.

I'm just trying to say that as a whole, our community focuses too much on that stuff.

As someone who probably does focus on that stuff too much, I am quite frankly offended to hear that you think the community as a whole does so too. 99% of this community is completely clueless when it comes to frame data and examining frame advantages and their implications.

There's a place for it, but I believe it would be more beneficial to, idk, try to deeply analyze just why Mango is so good. Obviously Mango isn't good because he uses the best frame perfect shine tricks all the time, and his tricks are better than everyone else's. He's good because he is better at "Mango vs. opponent," not "Mango vs. Melee."

That's just one example of a valuable conversation idea that I think we're ignoring.

These conversations are actually very frequently useless amongst the vast majority of the community. Straight up, most people need to be better at tech skill than they are to take anything away from Mango's play because his confidence to not **** anything up is the groundwork for how he plays and he says so himself. And even when you're at that level it's tough to actually get a useful conversation going about why someone is actually so good because it's a nebulous and somewhat subjective issue. I would never really try to dissuade this sort of discussion from happening, but it's also not the sort of thing we should realistically expect on a regular basis.

I also don't want to tell people what to talk about. Obviously you all can talk about whatever you want and whatever you think will help you. I'm just suggesting that most of us could improve more effectively if we changed the focus of our discussion. Make of it what you will.

Then why are you derailing a perfectly legitimate discussion? Honestly, there was nothing offensively hypothetical or unrealistic in the discussion and you shot it down for no real reason as far as I can tell. Hell, the last post before you made your little rant I even mentioned how the fact that shine -> waveland -> shine is grabbable makes me condition people and gave a specific example. I dunno, w/e, I'm getting too defensive, but I still think you went off about a perfectly reasonable discussion that had a hell of a lot more value than you gave it credit for.

 

[Brookman]

SOOOO CUTE.

 

[Mogwai]

You know it

 

[Bones0]

Dress one up as Fox! ^.^

 

[mers]

I don't want to turn this into a "discussion about a discussion" thread, so I'll just try to explain myself and answer your objections one more time.

...which is exactly not what this conversation was and is exactly why I'm sorta confused by your whole tirade. Someone talked about a technique, and then the frame data was brought up and discussed. How is this at all turning into super frame perfect bros? Frame data and calculating advantages pretty much has to assume frame perfection, as 0 frames of ****ing up is just a better base line than anything else. That doesn't mean we're talking about the same sort of useless **** as discussing how Bowser should be top tier because he has a move that has an invicibility frame on frame 1 and an invulnerable ledgestall. This is practical frame data and is a perfect example of when we should be analyzing this sort of thing.

I wasn't trying to say the discussion that was just going on was horrible or something. I do think the shine>waveland>shine thing was good to discuss, and that only lasted a few posts before everyone had gained a little knowledge. That's fine.

Honestly, most of the discussions in this thread have looked like that, and each of them was fine in and of itself. The problem (in my eyes) is that if you look back at just about every page in this thread, that's all you will see. It's not that each conversation is a bad thing, it's that this is all we talk about as a community. Which brings me to your next paragraph...

As someone who probably does focus on that stuff too much, I am quite frankly offended to hear that you think the community as a whole does so too. 99% of this community is completely clueless when it comes to frame data and examining frame advantages and their implications.

I don't mean to offend you, or anyone. I'm not trying to say "gosh, y'all are such n00bs, quit being scrubs and talk about meaningful ****, n00bs." I guess I did condemn previous discussions a little too much. I really just mean to suggest a way for all of us to work on improving.

These conversations are actually very frequently useless amongst the vast majority of the community. Straight up, most people need to be better at tech skill than they are to take anything away from Mango's play because his confidence to not **** anything up is the groundwork for how he plays and he says so himself. And even when you're at that level it's tough to actually get a useful conversation going about why someone is actually so good because it's a nebulous and somewhat subjective issue. I would never really try to dissuade this sort of discussion from happening, but it's also not the sort of thing we should realistically expect on a regular basis.

This may be true, but does that mean I shouldn't try to encourage it? I get that I was a little aggressive about the frame data stuff, and I apologize, but I still think encouraging people to talk about new things is good. After I finish replying to this post, I'll try to start a discussion of the kind I've been talking about, and we can see how it goes.

Then why are you derailing a perfectly legitimate discussion? Honestly, there was nothing offensively hypothetical or unrealistic in the discussion and you shot it down for no real reason as far as I can tell. Hell, the last post before you made your little rant I even mentioned how the fact that shine -> waveland -> shine is grabbable makes me condition people and gave a specific example. I dunno, w/e, I'm getting too defensive, but I still think you went off about a perfectly reasonable discussion that had a hell of a lot more value than you gave it credit for.

I didn't mean to derail anything, and I'm sorry if I came off as aggressive. The only way this kind of thing gets discussed is if somebody brings it up (obvious sentence, facepalm), so I figured I would do it. I didn't mean to harm anyone else's conversation, but simply to add my opinion.

So.

Anyhow.

Why do you all think Mango is so good? Good theories on this are surprisingly hard to come by, so I'd love to hear what you all have to say.

 

[Mogwai]

Dress one up as Fox! ^.^

 

[Niko45]

He's just baiting he's gonna getup attack.

 

[Bones0]

I don't care what you think he's gonna do, if you jab reset him I will destroy you.

 

[Mogwai]

At the risk of pooping on mers's point that we should focus on more strategic elements (I agree), does anyone know the frames for Falco's waveland from the edge and how much invincibility he has?

up to 14 depending on how well you can do it.

Source: Magus

If you let go of the ledge the 1st chance you get you have 29 invincibility to work with. Sheik's ledgedash is really good since she gets above the edge quickly. At best you can get up to 10 inv frames while on the stage to do whatever (Fox/Falco can get up to 14). You can definitely get an invincible d-smash/grab/roll/jump/etc off with good timing.

 

[Divinokage]

As someone who probably does focus on that stuff too much, I am quite frankly offended to hear that you think the community as a whole does so too. 99% of this community is completely clueless when it comes to frame data and examining frame advantages and their implications.

Ya probably but it's not everyone that is suited for intellectual things like this because I believe there are types of players. Like one that thrives on experience, others simply have that raw talent.. and then there are some that simply break down the game to pieces to understand it. Finding where you can grow the most is pretty important.

Like to me having -5 or +5 frame advantage means basically nothing lol. I know things simply by experiencing them and watching what happens.

Edit: That Fox dog is cute. Awesome.

 

[Mogwai]

Ya probably but it's not everyone that is suited for intellectual things like this because I believe there are types of players. Like one that thrives on experience, others simply have that raw talent.. and then there are some that simply break down the game to pieces to understand it. Finding where you can grow the most is pretty important.

Like to me having -5 or +5 frame advantage means basically nothing lol. I know things simply by experiencing them and watching what happens.

Edit: That Fox dog is cute. Awesome.

yea, I'm not saying people necessarily need to know more about frame advantage or anything, I just found it ridiculous to say that we think about it too much as a community because I consider frame nerds a tiny minority of the community.

 

[Brookman]

Why do you all think Mango is so good? Good theories on this are surprisingly hard to come by, so I'd love to hear what you all have to say.

Have you seen the dude play?!

 

[Acryte]

true, though knowing frame data can tell you if it's possible to escape something. Like if you play someone who isn't aware of when he can escape shield pressure from a falco or fox, etc he won't be trying to escape it because he is unaware of his options, whereas if you know then you can try things like shining out of the pressure or buffering rolls, etc. It is important as far as watching to see if it's timed correctly because you know that the window to escape/counter only grows larger as they won't be doing it frame perfectly. Because if someone didn't know their options, falco might go nuts on their shield, they tried to grab or roll or shine or whatever else, and didn't time it right, and now they think that it's not an option, when it may in fact be. In that case, the only way they will learn "oh hey, I can do that?" if from watching others play... which is a good idea in itself anyways, but yea.

 

[SSBM_or_GTFO]

Couldn't you shield break with moving multishines? If you were able to perform enough in a row.

If you don't break the shield, wouldn't you shield stab them?

This never got answered. Maybe I'm just too much of a noob to understand why this wouldn't work. (If it doesn't work)

 

[Pi]

This never got answered. Maybe I'm just too much of a noob to understand why this wouldn't work. (If it doesn't work)

i don't think it'd be in shield hitstun the whole time so probably no guarantee'd shield break
but a shield poke/catching them trying to buffer a roll/spotdodge/jump seems more than likely

 

[mers]

Have you seen the dude play?!

Which is exactly my point. Obviously he's amazing, but why? What does he do that's so impressive?

The best though I have on the subject is that he appears to find a way to push an advantage in every situation. He doesn't necessarily go in for shield pressure thinking "I'm gonna get that shine and death combo them" or "I'm gonna make them roll right and I'll predict it." I mean, he obviously does do these things, but he also sets himself up so that even if you don't do what he predicted, he still got the advantage. Maybe he pushed you closer to the edge or made you jump above him or made you think he left himself open when he didn't.

I mean, I don't wanna say I can read Mango's smash mind, because that's ridiculous, but that's the impression I get from his playstyle. He sets himself up to always be on the advantageous end of any encounter.

 

[Acryte]

I'd rather get hit with a shine than get shield broke to be honest. You could try to shield DI away and then if it actually stabbed its better than gettin broke but othewise the shield DI might move you far enough away from the shine for the moving multishines to chase you. But multishine is like ... tough to till shield brake, let alone moving with it, that's why you see it in action replay but not in actual matches. Prosmashertim used to multishine like crazy, you see it here and there sometimes but it's not practical

 

[Mogwai]

This never got answered. Maybe I'm just too much of a noob to understand why this wouldn't work. (If it doesn't work)

they can buffer spotdodge or roll and escape. I think buffered jump gets hit by a shine, but I forget.

 

[Bones0]

I thought we established that you can't roll out of multishines. Rolls have 4 frames of startup, but multishining only leaves a 3 frame gap.

 

[Acryte]

On the topic of mang0 he's great in all the areas that really make the most difference. He knows the game incredibly well, he has confidence in his abilities (when he's not sandbagging), he plays extremely smart and covers MANY options while his spacing is always on point. Throw on top of that, he's really good at reading other players and baiting people

 

[Divinokage]

yea, I'm not saying people necessarily need to know more about frame advantage or anything, I just found it ridiculous to say that we think about it too much as a community because I consider frame nerds a tiny minority of the community.

Ah alright then, fair enough. =)

 

[Brookman]

....

You cannot grasp the true form of Mango.. .. ..

 

[Divinokage]

Mmm... I can... =)

But rofl at Giygas.

 

[Lightsyde]

Mmm... I can... =)

But rofl at Giygas.

I think his Link can grasp the true form of you better. ;]

 

[tarheeljks]

cute. i want one

 

[Veetaak]

Which is exactly my point. Obviously he's amazing, but why? What does he do that's so impressive?

The best though I have on the subject is that he appears to find a way to push an advantage in every situation. He doesn't necessarily go in for shield pressure thinking "I'm gonna get that shine and death combo them" or "I'm gonna make them roll right and I'll predict it." I mean, he obviously does do these things, but he also sets himself up so that even if you don't do what he predicted, he still got the advantage. Maybe he pushed you closer to the edge or made you jump above him or made you think he left himself open when he didn't.

I mean, I don't wanna say I can read Mango's smash mind, because that's ridiculous, but that's the impression I get from his playstyle. He sets himself up to always be on the advantageous end of any encounter.

The guy is cocky and doesn't care bout what others think so he has his very own unique style. he reads like a God and can **** you up like a God. nothin more to say, he is amazing at the game

 

[Beat!]

Very insightful analysis.

 

[Mogwai]

I thought we established that you can't roll out of multishines. Rolls have 4 frames of startup, but multishining only leaves a 3 frame gap.

well, the invincibility starts on frame 4. I believe you drop your shield and start moving your hitbox backwards in earlier frames, but I might be misunderstand it.

 

[Divinokage]

The guy is cocky and doesn't care bout what others think so he has his very own unique style. he reads like a God and can **** you up like a God. nothin more to say, he is amazing at the game

He is no ****ing God, he's human just like the rest of us. Learn 2 beat him.

 

[Mogwai]

sorry Kage, not all of us get to play him hung over.

oh snap! I went there!

 

[Beat!]

That was low D:

 

[huMps]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naxhm1Ss1os#( go to 3:04)
Mers, is this what you were talking about when you said mango doesn't force and **** rolls?

 

[Divinokage]

sorry Kage, not all of us get to play him hung over.

oh snap! I went there!

Which is a falsified statement! Though it's pretty easy to troll with this.

 

[_Rocky_]

you don't beat cactuar and jman hungover anyway

 

[mers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naxhm1Ss1os#( go to 3:04)
Mers, is this what you were talking about when you said mango doesn't force and **** rolls?

Hahaha. Not what I meant.

I mean, he does make predictions, and when he's right he ****s you up for them. My point was that even if Armada hadn't rolled right there, Mango would probably have been ready for it and would have been able to push some kind of advantage. Just based on what I see when I watch him, anyhow.

 

[leffen]

That is kinda the exact opposite of what he really does imho.

He always criticizes ppl about trying to cover every option, always choosing the best option and just "reacting" like a robot. He mindgames, he takes chances and if he fails he fails, but he usually doesnt.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

words of a true fanboy