PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Mew2King]

PP falco dittos are just shine OOS and smart spot dodges I think (and back throw to F throw off stage)

 

[Shroomed]

if zhu gives up i'll probably cry for like a week

idk why i have such a strong belief that zhu can be the best, but i do lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well the real problem with that.. is that I don't have the chance to fight a Falco like you guys play which obv contributes me being bad at the matchup. No players in EC Canada has a pro Falco/Falco main. I can definitely defeat the players here if they decide to go Falco vs me but it's not their main so it's completely different.. they play differently.

So with that being said.. how do you practice something when there's no one to show you what you are doing wrong? (As an immediate solution)

Edit: I know I have to go down to the US to fight the great Falco mains, of course.. that's what I want to do.

Well you have videos like I did/do. =) See the situations that you get put into? Fix them or avoid them!

Also you could have someone there learn to mimic a pro Falco style so you could at least learn to beat some patterns and habits. Beyond that you'll just need to make the ABSOLUTE MOST of your friendlies so that you have tested scores of things and discovered a lot by the time you finished friendlying. That's what I had to do except for kinda recently when Twitch branches out to new characters once in a while.

I dunno. Falco controls ganon so hard. Even when he PS stuff, then he can easily be intercepted. If he goes in the air, it's a free combo at all times. Combos are easy to freestyle on ganon as well (on top of being able to psuedo combo/force him in a bad situation for free, thanks to his moves being too slow. Besides u-air, but it doesn't hit below him until late). His recovery options are bad and get ***** by lasers + d-air.

Speed is not an issue in the matchup, since ganon is mad slow and has a hard time approaching since he is a big, slow target with slow moves to boot (his jab is fast, but:

1 - requires him to be on the ground
2 - isn't that long
3 - can still be CC'd like other jabs). What's even worse for ganon is the fact that he can't CC moves like d-air, shine, and laser so it's a pain for him to punish.

As long as you don't try to go above ganon, then you won't get ***** by his u-air. If he's running away, then you can shoot his *** and turn him around, since he's obviously going to go for a b-air.

Going behind ganon when he's in his shield is ****, because he can't do anything, besides roll/WD retreat sometimes/try some gimmick that won't work if you just spam moves.


TLDR; Falco most definitely ***** ganon hard.

At least as hard as fox. If not worse.

Ganon going into the air hardly means a free combo. He just has to go into the air on his own terms and not as a scared defensive maneuver if he does so.

Falco is slow too and Ganon outranges Falco, which is a big deal. Falco can't directly challenge Fair, as a laser before landing means a quick Uair or DJ backwards to spaced Fair probably, which is really tough to outspace/react to with the possibility of Uair being there too(and waveland I suppose). Ganon can just land and jab you or take lasers to jab/ftilt fairly safely with decent mixup, not to mention Ganon gets cool FH uair oos or in general stuff to the same mixups. SURE I know you're thinking it's all baits, but it's like Marth or Puff, Ganon can still AGGRESSIVELY ZONE so that he can wall off Falco really well and majorly exploit stage control, not to mention his own edgeguarding and combos are brutal on Falco as well, in addition to having a CG that leads into a KO aerial depending on DI+throw mixup. Both are okay with being below the other because they can still **** that, and it's not like Ganon won't make better use of CC'ing than Falco will anyway because Ganon spacing Fair/Bair/Jab probly too on Falco won't take punishment whereas Ganon CC'ing jabs/ftilts/Nairs/Dairs possibly too could be punished(and Falco would be something else to space Bairs on Ganon).

Shield DI helps with Falco's shield pressure like anyone else as a cool mixup, and Ganon's tall height and bigger shield help him grab sooner too or roll with more leeway if he needs it(Ganon's grab starts behind him by the way).

I'm not saying Ganon wins or anything LOL but I want this to get put in better perspective. Ganon has some nice tricks vs Falco.

PP falco dittos are just shine OOS and smart spot dodges I think (and back throw to F throw off stage)

XD You don't oversimplify Marth dittos like this. Bthrow to Fthrow doesn't even work usually LOL.





Edit: I'd love to see zhu tap more haha. That guy was rising SO FAST before....

 

[DJRome]

lol ganon loses so hard. all of these "tricks" suck if the falco knows them and range is easily given to falco for lasers

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco has to use a non laser move eventually and as long as Ganon keeps himself in good position/mobile then he can manage.

 

[MacD]

XD You don't oversimplify Marth dittos like this. Bthrow to Fthrow doesn't even work usually LOL.

that's because marth dittos aren't that simple

falco dittos obviously are, DUH!!!

 

[choknater]

'back in my day we used to use mindgames' - mango

 

[Dr Peepee]

2 personal notes

Hehe Mango is right in a sense, but I'm working on bringing it back in my own less refined way haha.


Anyway, I need to make a big post because I realized something last night and had a cool experience today so now you guys get to read along about my smash life. =)


So, I was up late last night watching me vs Mango trying to get tired(watching that stuff usually gives me subconscious ideas to mull over and it makes me tired thinking about it lol), and I was in the middle of watching one of my matches with Mango on.....YS or FoD(I forget which) and I had a ridiculously embarrassing realization about myself. I had regressed(or maybe always been this way O_O) in my video-watching abilities somehow last year I think and had started to watch a video FROM ONE PLAYER'S PERSPECTIVE AT A TIME. I was missing the WHOLE match, especially since I focused on one player when he was getting off at the same times, nearly every time. Once I really expanded my mindset, once I opened myself up to watching EVERYTHING in a match, it was THEN that I saw how Mango was tricking me and playing me far beyond what I was doing in the matchup. I don't know if this is to say that Mango is as good at playing the matchup as I am, but he is definitely better than playing PEOPLE than I am, which is something I've always known but was never sure how to articulate.

Anyway, that realization aside, I hungrily watched every match from a fresh perspective, often seeing baits and tricks I had often missed, and discovered just WHY I was doing those bad dash attacks and Nairs sometimes(Mango had been using retreating moves and rolls to bait them in case you're wondering....go watch the vids LOL). I then vowed to redouble my efforts to really watch my opponent while I play.

I don't know if I posted this here before, but I think I'm sometimes mediocre/poor at watching people when I play, which gives me a strong underperforming showing vs people I typically outclass in rank. I play based on situations and focusing on my character in my main field of vision over my opponent's, but at the cost of never getting any reads or truly figuring out a player. This is what M2K does I feel(doesn't switch up the neutral game a lot but he doesn't need it as badly as I do lol), only M2K has a much more solid punishment game than I do(I feel my punishment as well as my DI is by far the worst out of the better players right now...) so I can't get by on my half-baked style forever. I may have to end up analyzing combos and movements but I plan on improving on all fronts to stay ahead of the game and beat those at the top more consistently.



That is note 1.


Note 2:


So, I have this new motivation to focus solely on my reads and REALLY learn people. I was very eager to put it to the test today. Fortunately, Twitch was down to play again today despite me frustrating him badly last night and causing him to quit early. To my good fortune but somewhat prolonged aggravation, Twitch had been thinking about my Falco literally ALL DAY and how to beat it.

***for those of you who don't know, the aggravation comes in when I have to re-learn to hit twitch again lol. He runs from me since I counter approaches well and counters my approach back. Then I start camping frustratedly and get predictable since I suck at camping LOL.

So we start playing and I'm not ****** for long before Twitch gets his tech and strategy on point and I'm trying to get used to what he's doing, slow things down and methodically punish, only Twitch is always ready for what I'm doing since he's been thinking about it all day, so he always hits me somehow even though I felt like I made a successful bait.

***note: I feel like Twitch was either successfully baiting me in this time period or he just has that minimal Fox delay LOL either way it's painful =p


It took quite a bit of growls and exasperated phrases before I ended up figuring out what to do. I ended up reverse countering his patient game with EXTREMELY tight timing but this tends to cripple my combos since I'm focusing so hard on my read and execution on the read and then when everything slows down I can't adjust in time.

Yes, this does mean I went back to semi-******(2/3 stocks I think? I'm not sure when he started sandbagging or if the sandbagging resulted from my ****** <.< because there were 4 stocks towards the end) him by the time the session ended, but I wasn't very satisfied. I didn't feel like I was truly baiting him, only playing off of reaction time and jerky motions to punish....I remembered and literally remember little of actual gameplay from our session, even though it ended about 1 hour and 45 minutes ago from the time I was at this point in writing(11:12 PM EST). This means I didn't get to try out what I wanted, although I believe I pushed and will push my personal vs fox instincts to a very effective level at this rate. The baiting and playstyle switching will be something I'll need to focus on more obviously once I get these instincts down more concretely.

I'm hoping Twitch is down to play again tomorrow, as I may consider recording if I can't figure this out during our session tomorrow and will study the videos to determine where my weak areas are(something I haven't done in a while, especially with Twitch videos). I'm very interested in tackling this issue as I believe learning to throw in baits and tricks are vital vs Fox especially since he's so much faster than Falco, but mostly because it would raise the bar for my current skill cap that much higher.

I guess we'll see what happens. =)

 

[Brookman]

Dear PP,

I think you should play vs. another person (or three) before playing Twitch three days in a row. I'm sure you can think of a few good reasons not to for yourself. However, if you feel like you'll get more out of it than you're putting in, go ahead.

I feel the familiarity and comfort developed will encourage a false understanding and over-generalization of player vs.player relationships.



$0.02,

Brookman

 

[Dr Peepee]

So far it has taught me a lot and Twitch forces me to push past the patterns I like to fall into since he knows me better than anyone. Besides, no one else is around me. <.<

However, I do see your point totally and would love that opportunity.

 

[DJRome]

kevin, do you use anything u learned playing me

 

[Brookman]

As long as he's able to keep you on your toes - I mean, do you guys ever talk about what you're trying to use against each other? Maybe, try calling out eachother's action as your playing (jump, roll, wavedash back . . . etc. )

 

[Dr Peepee]

kevin, do you use anything u learned playing me

Yes but it's mostly DD'ing/vs Sheik stuff that are general rules that I've forgotten so I can't give specifics anymore. <.<

As long as he's able to keep you on your toes - I mean, do you guys ever talk about what you're trying to use against each other? Maybe, try calling out eachother's action as your playing (jump, roll, wavedash back . . . etc. )

I don't think we usually talk about it but I mean I've tried it before and he just says he does what he does to beat what he sees me do.....maybe if he thought about it today we can get something to work though.

Also I tend to focus too hard while playing to call things out but I could try it.

 

[Brookman]

I would only do it if he's down to try it as well. What I usually try to acheive when I play like this with my friend is to have him completely walling my common play style.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, I don't mind giving it a shot if it could help me improve haha.

I suppose I'll let you guys know how things go once I test it out.

 

[Sion]

sometimes i feel a bit more intelligent coming in here, but i exit this thread the as same old, dumb falco i always am

not cause this thread isn't all kinds of awesome, it's more like it's hard for all of the information to sink in

 

[Mahone]

So far it has taught me a lot and Twitch forces me to push past the patterns I like to fall into since he knows me better than anyone. Besides, no one else is around me. <.<

However, I do see your point totally and would love that opportunity.

You should come up to Tech this weekend and play me

Do you play on bean bag chairs, because you should (for safety purposes).... but seriously, you shouldn't four stock your only competition... i did that to my roommate and now I am only allowed to play falcon dittos

 

[Dr Peepee]

sometimes i feel a bit more intelligent coming in here, but i exit this thread the as same old, dumb falco i always am

not cause this thread isn't all kinds of awesome, it's more like it's hard for all of the information to sink in

Maybe you should sick around and post more so it has a better chance of sinking in. =)

You should come up to Tech this weekend and play me

Do you play on bean bag chairs, because you should (for safety purposes).... but seriously, you shouldn't four stock your only competition... i did that to my roommate and now I am only allowed to play falcon dittos

Lol dude I would but I already blew off plans to chill with other guys because I've been driving too much lately and to you it'd be like 4 hours or something probably. Buuuut I mean if circumstances were different then I would. =)

I have a nice leather(I guess it's leather idk it feels **** LOL) chair I play in and Twitch has a pretty comfy padded seat metal chair(it's better than it sounds lol) to play on.

Also yeah he gets mad and quits when I **** him but instead of not wanting to play like usual he mans up and works around it(which is what he almost always did anyway so it works out lol) eventually and here we are. =)

Though sometimes it makes him quit early too so I work Falcon in there lol.

 

[DJRome]

i would 100000x rather play ur falco than your falcon. it's just so. . .

guh

 

[Veetaak]

lol
My friend is also like Twitch. He seems petty mad when we quit our smash session but the next day he calls me again for more smash xD

 

[Divinokage]

Well you have videos like I did/do. =) See the situations that you get put into? Fix them or avoid them!

Also you could have someone there learn to mimic a pro Falco style so you could at least learn to beat some patterns and habits. Beyond that you'll just need to make the ABSOLUTE MOST of your friendlies so that you have tested scores of things and discovered a lot by the time you finished friendlying. That's what I had to do except for kinda recently when Twitch branches out to new characters once in a while.

Ya that's fair enough since I don't really have a choice over here. With that said, the real problem finally arises I think. The real problem is that I'm having trouble adapting to certain styles when the player is better than me just because of HOW you would use your own tools. If I want to surpass something like that in everyway... then I think I need to do my research now.. this answer seems to me like it was your answer just a bit ago. Research your opponent to the core.

I remember at RoM 2 or 3? You said to me along the lines of "your style is too inflexible.." or something like that. Like I'm too hard headed and will not change. When you said that I did think about it a lot and even now because I thought it was really important. There's simply less for the opponent to exploit because my own style will become more fluid. And I want to be able to adapt to everything.

 

[$mike]

one of these days, twitch is gonna throw his metal chair at you in rage, pp.

 

[SSBM_or_GTFO]

Got any tips for shine/waveshine on jump through platforms? Almost every time I do it, I'll fall through the platform before wavedashing. It feels slow and looks choppy. :/

 

[FoxLisk]

Well here's the thing. When you're on a platform, pressing down makes you drop through the platform. So if you're just standing on a platform (i.e. not in any sort of lag) and you press down+b to shine, you fall through the platform before starting your shine. The only way to really avoid this is to press down very lightly - to the point where it counts as down for the shine but doesn't drop you through the platform - or to start holding down while in some kind of lag; e.g. if you land a dair and are falling down to a platform, hold down after your fastfall until you're on the platform and then you wont fall through.

 

[Dr Peepee]

i would 100000x rather play ur falco than your falcon. it's just so. . .

guh

LOL my Falcon's awesome bro. =p

Ya that's fair enough since I don't really have a choice over here. With that said, the real problem finally arises I think. The real problem is that I'm having trouble adapting to certain styles when the player is better than me just because of HOW you would use your own tools. If I want to surpass something like that in everyway... then I think I need to do my research now.. this answer seems to me like it was your answer just a bit ago. Research your opponent to the core.

I remember at RoM 2 or 3? You said to me along the lines of "your style is too inflexible.." or something like that. Like I'm too hard headed and will not change. When you said that I did think about it a lot and even now because I thought it was really important. There's simply less for the opponent to exploit because my own style will become more fluid. And I want to be able to adapt to everything.

As long as you push your mind to expand the possibilities available then you'll be able to adapt much better and understand what someone is doing to a greater extent. That's something you don't entirely need someone around to do either.

one of these days, twitch is gonna throw his metal chair at you in rage, pp.

LOL

nah we're good about not attacking each other. =p

Got any tips for shine/waveshine on jump through platforms? Almost every time I do it, I'll fall through the platform before wavedashing. It feels slow and looks choppy. :/

I can see this question being two different things, so could you elaborate please?


Edit: or foxlisk can get it lol

 

[SSBM_or_GTFO]

Well, when I shine on a platform I fall through, every time, unless I hit someone with it. Kind of wondering if there's a way to not fall through the platform when I shine, in case I miss the shine, or something.

 

[Divinokage]

haha you sound like my ninja friend now when you say this PP. =)

 

[Redact]

Well, when I shine on a platform I fall through, every time, unless I hit someone with it. Kind of wondering if there's a way to not fall through the platform when I shine, in case I miss the shine, or something.

To me it sounds like you press down too fast and too early before you press B, making yourself start to fall through THEN shine, I see two solutions to this:

A: Get your timing nice and tight, so you don't start to fall through before you press B

B: Learn to tilt the stick instead of going the full way, this way you wont fall through the platform but still be able to shine.

Hope this helps!

 

[SSBM_or_GTFO]

To me it sounds like you press down too fast and too early before you press B, making yourself start to fall through THEN shine, I see two solutions to this:

A: Get your timing nice and tight, so you don't start to fall through before you press B

B: Learn to tilt the stick instead of going the full way, this way you wont fall through the platform but still be able to shine.

Hope this helps!

Thanks. I'll add that to my list of things to practice. :D

Also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_htx2k8EQ3M

I was messing around and found how to do this. I know I've seen it done before. Is there a name for it? Or is it just a form of moonwalking? And is it useful in an actual match?

 

[Cheebs]

Looks like moonwalking to me

 

[Dr Peepee]

haha you sound like my ninja friend now when you say this PP. =)

**** I can do ninja talk and you can do warrior talk lol. =p

To me it sounds like you press down too fast and too early before you press B, making yourself start to fall through THEN shine, I see two solutions to this:

A: Get your timing nice and tight, so you don't start to fall through before you press B

B: Learn to tilt the stick instead of going the full way, this way you wont fall through the platform but still be able to shine.

Hope this helps!

Oh cool I should actually work on that myself since I mess up this particular thing some lol.

Thanks. I'll add that to my list of things to practice. :D

Also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_htx2k8EQ3M

I was messing around and found how to do this. I know I've seen it done before. Is there a name for it? Or is it just a form of moonwalking? And is it useful in an actual match?

I think it's a moonwalk but it's what Mango does to do those crazy edgeguards whatever it is. How do you do that?

 

[SSBM_or_GTFO]

This will be difficult for me to explain so if I sound stupid you can ignore the stupidity. xP

Say I start facing to the right. I'll dash to the right, then when I know I won't dash dance, I'll mash the control stick left to start turning around. Then after a bit of the turn around animation has played, I mash the control stick right, then shortly after, left again, then right. It's weird to put into words because I can't really explain what goes on while doing that technique.

There's a pattern with it. Dash Right -> Left -> Right -> Left -> Right, all with the same timing. The timing is different depending on the speed of the turn around animation. For example, to do this with Falco you have to follow the pattern faster than if you tried the technique with Fox.

My control stick sounds like a heartbeat when I do it, if that helps at all.

I'll shut up now. XD

 

[Veetaak]

It's amazing how everyone is better than someone at something in smash ^^
Keep spreading the knowledge! <333

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hm cool, thanks bro. =)

 

[SSBM_or_GTFO]

It's amazing how everyone is better than someone at something in smash ^^
Keep spreading the knowledge! <333

Haha, I was surprised PP asked me how to do it. XD

@PP No problem.

 

[Beat!]

Isn't moonwalking with Falco just performed by walking in one direction and then doing the normal moonwalking rotation in the other direction (e.g walking left and then moonwalkinh from right to left)?

At least that's how I do it, and it works fine. I think that's what Mango does too, because it looks exactly the same :d

 

[FoxLisk]

Thanks. I'll add that to my list of things to practice. :D

i hate it when i get ignored ><

 

[unknown522]

Ganon going into the air hardly means a free combo. He just has to go into the air on his own terms and not as a scared defensive maneuver if he does so.

Falco is slow too and Ganon outranges Falco, which is a big deal. Falco can't directly challenge Fair, as a laser before landing means a quick Uair or DJ backwards to spaced Fair probably, which is really tough to outspace/react to with the possibility of Uair being there too(and waveland I suppose). Ganon can just land and jab you or take lasers to jab/ftilt fairly safely with decent mixup, not to mention Ganon gets cool FH uair oos or in general stuff to the same mixups. SURE I know you're thinking it's all baits, but it's like Marth or Puff, Ganon can still AGGRESSIVELY ZONE so that he can wall off Falco really well and majorly exploit stage control, not to mention his own edgeguarding and combos are brutal on Falco as well, in addition to having a CG that leads into a KO aerial depending on DI+throw mixup. Both are okay with being below the other because they can still **** that, and it's not like Ganon won't make better use of CC'ing than Falco will anyway because Ganon spacing Fair/Bair/Jab probly too on Falco won't take punishment whereas Ganon CC'ing jabs/ftilts/Nairs/Dairs possibly too could be punished(and Falco would be something else to space Bairs on Ganon).

Shield DI helps with Falco's shield pressure like anyone else as a cool mixup, and Ganon's tall height and bigger shield help him grab sooner too or roll with more leeway if he needs it(Ganon's grab starts behind him by the way).

I'm not saying Ganon wins or anything LOL but I want this to get put in better perspective. Ganon has some nice tricks vs Falco.

hmm I guess.

 

[JPOBS]

reposting this here because it contains good info. This has to do with why shines sometimes send people into that lame floaty animation and ruins your combo instead of letting you **** their face.

The bounce still counts the player as being on the ground. Whether you hit them out of bounce is just an animation formality. I have a few theories of what the bounce's significance is, but for this it's totally irrelevant.

When you hit someone out of their non-tech animation with a move that sends with an upwards trajectory and it does 7% or greater, they fly up in stun like they would if they were hit in the air. Simple enough. You wanna check? D-throw a CPU Falcon with Falco him and Shine him off the ground as your first move (freshness matters). He'll get launched.

However, it changes when your move does 6% or less. The game decides that's not enough damage for your move to launch. Why? Who knows. I think this is their twist on the 64 OTG mechanic but that's another matter entirely. Either way, they fly up as if they jumped. They have total control of their character (minus the momentum affecting their air control). If you wanna check, stale your Shine a bunch (~3-4 times), then D-throw that same Falcon and Shine him off the ground. He'll just fly up.

This happens with Falco a lot because people use the Shine to tech chase the non-tech almost every time. His combos are setup from Shine, too, so it's easy for it to get staled below the 7% threshold. That it starts at 8% is also a factor; it doesn't take much to drop below 7%. You can also observe this phenomenon easily with Sheik's F-tilt, though it's less common for a few reasons.

 

[SSBM_or_GTFO]

i hate it when i get ignored ><

lol, to be honest, I completely overlooked your post. If I saw it, I would have been sure to address you in my post.