Mew2King
King of the Mews
marth and sheik should have shine grabs
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
bowser should have shine grab.
tbh, I don't think this would change a whole lot, they don't have particularly useful physics for utilizing a shine the way spacies do. That might just be my lack of imagination though
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Everytime PP posts something it degenerates into this bullcrap lol.
Lightsyde
Smash Champion
Not even trying to be bias but I played Axe at Pound and PP last Thursday.
Don't get me wrong, Axe is insane but Kevin is on another level as far spacing, lasers, and combos (oh my god). I've watched and played nearly all the top Falco's in person and I can safely say that the experience of fighting PP is infinitely harder than any of the others.
If you were talking about TO5 or even ROM PP, then I might be able to say his Falco isn't that sexy...but man, these days, it's on that Penelope Cruz level of hotness.
Just ****ing saying.
EDIT: Kevin, if you read this, YOU STILL AIN'T GOOD QUIT DUCKING ME AT REGIONALS
Also, to the other topic: Falcon with a shine/shinegrab would be insane.
Don't get me wrong, Axe is insane but Kevin is on another level as far spacing, lasers, and combos (oh my god). I've watched and played nearly all the top Falco's in person and I can safely say that the experience of fighting PP is infinitely harder than any of the others.
If you were talking about TO5 or even ROM PP, then I might be able to say his Falco isn't that sexy...but man, these days, it's on that Penelope Cruz level of hotness.
Just ****ing saying.
EDIT: Kevin, if you read this, YOU STILL AIN'T GOOD QUIT DUCKING ME AT REGIONALS
Also, to the other topic: Falcon with a shine/shinegrab would be insane.
SSBM_or_GTFO
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2011
- Messages
- 92
I was wondering. Would it be a good idea to be able to SHL and get the laser at different heights at will? I'm getting good at SHL with the laser at ground level so I was wondering...
Beat!
Smash Master
Have you guys compared ROM grand finals to PP vs M2K at Pound V (or like, any PP vid from Pound V)?
Stupid question I guess
But goddamnit, how the hell can anyone improve that much in such a short amount of time???
Stupid question I guess
But goddamnit, how the hell can anyone improve that much in such a short amount of time???
Beat!
Smash Master
He went from being that Falco everybody else is hyping to becoming my absolute favourite Falco (sorry Shiz :/)
In like 3 months
In like 3 months
Well, this is going to sound kind of funny, but I'm changing how much each of the latter 2 options influence my play these days. Experience is something I use to help me build my style(what works and what doesn't work and what can be improved upon etc) as well as generalize a matchup(what to watch out for and what mixups to expect as well as what beats what insofar as much style goes anyway).
For example, the JV 5 I pretty much used only experience to win. Tubes never surprised me and reacted as I thought he would to everything, but I probably used conscious thought to avoid him. I don't play by instinct much at all except for my ******** dash attacks and Nairs once in a while lol. Wait no that's not true lol, I use instinct during times when I can't plan out everything and I have to go with what I already know(instinct and experience seem somewhat inherently tied for me in this sense). This happens a lot in spacie matchups because of the quick timings needed. You have to trust your experience and instincts(hehe I know) in order to get hits you can't always plan out.
NOW THEN, it's entirely possible to rely more on conscious thought to set up your instincts over the course of a set(using experience to know what to look for), so in that way they are somewhat tied and impossible to fully separate. I think I used to rely on instinct/patterns more in the past and am instead using conscious thought to manipulate my own reactions now. It's taking a lot of work but it's paying off nicely.
<3
Also I just learn how to beat people and eliminate more deadwood from my play(there's still so much <.<). When I start adding more back to my game beyond the occasional trick I'll start to enjoy my own Falco haha.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
Falco's shine has 5 frames of shieldstun, while Fox's has 4.
Falco, when hitting with shine, has 5 frames of hitlag, while the opponent has 7.
Fox, when hitting with shine, has 4 frames of hitlag, while the opponent has 6.
The frame advantage of Falco's is only one greater than Fox's. 3rd frame after hitlag you can jump, then initiate grab the frame after, so you're like -4 with Falco, and -5 with Fox? They can buffer a roll or spotdodge, or JC shine oos and get it out the same frame in a Fox ditto.
For future reference:
Shieldstun = floor{[(4.45 + Damage) / 2.235]}
Falco, when hitting with shine, has 5 frames of hitlag, while the opponent has 7.
Fox, when hitting with shine, has 4 frames of hitlag, while the opponent has 6.
The frame advantage of Falco's is only one greater than Fox's. 3rd frame after hitlag you can jump, then initiate grab the frame after, so you're like -4 with Falco, and -5 with Fox? They can buffer a roll or spotdodge, or JC shine oos and get it out the same frame in a Fox ditto.
For future reference:
Shieldstun = floor{[(4.45 + Damage) / 2.235]}
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
anyone? =/
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ#t=2m53s
It also works well if somebody is below you and hitting you (think a marth uptilting) and you can shield drop through with an aerial to punish the lag. It's also useful when you feel like you're stuck on the platform shielding, and want to get down quickly without having to jump/WD because its slow. Additionally, opponents often don't consider shield dropping as an option, so they won't be trying to cover it in general; it throws people off because they expect you to not have any downwards mobility, then all of a sudden you're below them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arKpUTBwtQY#t=1m43s
^Shield drop--> shine waveland is probably my favorite use of shielddropping just because it looks cool though I didn't do it there =/
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
lol. i can sooo imagine this.
at least for one stock vs a falcon/ganon/sheik.
i like westballz falco.
does anyone have any thoughts about merc's falco? he just got third at this NC tourney, taking out guys like l0zr, twitch, and druggedfox. his falco just looks really smart and effective, but i wanted to see if you guys had any thoughts about it.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Merck's definitely pretty good/smart but has some work to do. One of his biggest issues is being weak at the marth matchup in particular. Also, against fox, he has a lot of trouble really understanding how to take advantage of the character depending on who he's playing against. He apparently felt comfortable vs yay and lozr, but whenever he plays me he always says he can't really get in at all.
He's a really creative player though, making a lot of unorthodox choices and always experimenting, and he's always improving. Also, he knows the peach and falcon matchups pretty well, and is pretty good at falco dittos.
If he works on making more consistent good choices, and steps up his matchups and learning how to abuse falco's offense more against all players (i.e. not just people hes comfortable against) it'll be really cool to see where he gets too =]
Edit: Hey PP, could you talk about falco dittos some? In general concepts/thoughts etc that you focus on would be great, but if you'd rather me ask a specific aspect of the matchup I'll do that.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I've only seen a few vids of Merc from that tourny. He didn't amaze me, but a solid falco. he has a really slow play style. not that that's necessarily a bad thing, just something i noticed offhand.
but vids aren't everything and i wasn't really studying them, just watching for leisure so who am i to judge.
also DF, why weren't you punishing his spotdodges/rolls? the biggest thing i noticed is that you over dashdance a lot and missed a lot of potential opportunities. like, you would consistently bait a spotdodge or something, but then dash dance more than was necessary and blow your opening. idk just something i noticed
but vids aren't everything and i wasn't really studying them, just watching for leisure so who am i to judge.
also DF, why weren't you punishing his spotdodges/rolls? the biggest thing i noticed is that you over dashdance a lot and missed a lot of potential opportunities. like, you would consistently bait a spotdodge or something, but then dash dance more than was necessary and blow your opening. idk just something i noticed
Mew2King
King of the Mews
while it is true that he's improved a lot in that time, about half the reason is my stupid bad mentality of giving up before the fight even starts if I don't go into it confidently
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Because I suck at this game >_>
I just wasn't reacting for some reason that day; I'm not sure why that was the case but I noticed the same thing and I was pretty annoyed with it. You're entirely right... hopefully that's not gonna end up happening again =P
JPOBS
Smash Hero
haha its all good broski <3
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Basically don't be scared!!!!
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
I remember back in the day Merc went to a random norcal tournament saying he'd beat everyone.
I beat him with Marth and Puff back when I mained Falco and sucked.
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
LOL ZHU! Omggg I'm gonna bug him about that soon, that's hilariousssss.... you have a puff? >_>
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
This was WAYYYYYY long ago though. I don't really remember why I played the characters I did. I feel like it was 2-1, I think he might've beaten my Falco / Fox first or second game, but for whatever reason, I felt comfortable going floaties against him LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. But no, I definitely didn't have a Puff back then.
This was before I beat anyone good in norcal too =D
Ahhhhhh good times.
And I definitely did not have a puff.
I miss the days when getting better meant biking miles to play someone who couldn't l cancel / wd / stuff just to solidify tech skill and combos. Those were good days.
Shroomed told me to not quit until I'm in a grand finals of a national tournament.
How realistic is this?
='(
Mew2King
King of the Mews
a zhu is a dolphin-catfish
Keeping yourself moving and knowing how to make the most of your advantages is huge in Falco dittos. So much momentum goes into these things that keeping yourself moving tight on either the winning or losing end will push the matchup in your favor. Then obviously you should pretty much always kill once you get a solid hit or you get the chance to lose your stock increased.
Mixups on approach and pressure(lasers kinda in there) are huge.
Idk what else you want generally lol.
Well technically you were almost in finals of DGDTJ which is kinda national soooooo
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
It's very realistic zhu 
Where's all the motivation of the olden days where you'd bike miles =P Just bike a few more miles all the way over to shelby, NC and I'm sure you'll improve pretty quickly... Though for real, you don't think you can do it?
Jasonn how much longer are you in GA???
Uhhh, for falco dittos... It's just like, I feel like it's way too easy to get hit in them. I'll be moving around, trying to pressure and such, then my opponent gets a favorable trade or a stray CC shine or a backthrow--> gimp and my momentum is shot. I guess I was just kinda hoping you've felt the same way before, because then you could just tell me how you dealt with it/approached the situation either in your mentality with the matchup or an actual style change you employed. If you've never felt that way, then nvm I guess >_>
Where's all the motivation of the olden days where you'd bike miles =P Just bike a few more miles all the way over to shelby, NC and I'm sure you'll improve pretty quickly... Though for real, you don't think you can do it?
Jasonn how much longer are you in GA???
Uhhh, for falco dittos... It's just like, I feel like it's way too easy to get hit in them. I'll be moving around, trying to pressure and such, then my opponent gets a favorable trade or a stray CC shine or a backthrow--> gimp and my momentum is shot. I guess I was just kinda hoping you've felt the same way before, because then you could just tell me how you dealt with it/approached the situation either in your mentality with the matchup or an actual style change you employed. If you've never felt that way, then nvm I guess >_>
Everyone should come to shelby =DIt's very realistic zhu
Where's all the motivation of the olden days where you'd bike miles =P Just bike a few more miles all the way over to shelby, NC and I'm sure you'll improve pretty quickly... Though for real, you don't think you can do it?
Jasonn how much longer are you in GA???
Uhhh, for falco dittos... It's just like, I feel like it's way too easy to get hit in them. I'll be moving around, trying to pressure and such, then my opponent gets a favorable trade or a stray CC shine or a backthrow--> gimp and my momentum is shot. I guess I was just kinda hoping you've felt the same way before, because then you could just tell me how you dealt with it/approached the situation either in your mentality with the matchup or an actual style change you employed. If you've never felt that way, then nvm I guess >_>
Ummm, getting hit in Falco dittos isn't any different from another matchup LOL. You let yourself get hit if you get hit, simple as that.
Momentum IS tough in Falco dittos, but it's all about getting over it like you would any other character. Use your movement/lasers to set up a fresh flow on a new stock and shake it off. I tend to lose more momentum in matches where I'm dominating for a while and can't finish, or ones I don't know as well, like ICs or Samus lol.
Yeah with Falco dittos you just have to kind of force things a little to shift momentum. Really though, if you break it down into getting that hit and getting your own combo/gimp, then that's a lot simpler than thinking about all of the momentum you're fighting, etc. You still have control of your own psychology/mind during a set despite what your opponent is doing, and I think it's important to remember that too so you don't let unfortunate exchanges damage your mentality longer than it takes for you to respawn.
tw1n
Smash Champion
Lol Zhu you are much better than you realize I guess. I think you could make top 3 at Genesis2 if you play right.
Or come to NM where beating our top players means only using one hand
(Except for Light. He's more AZ than NM tho lol)
Or come to NM where beating our top players means only using one hand
(Except for Light. He's more AZ than NM tho lol)
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I was one step away at RoM 2 from that until PP.. *glares* Top 3 with Ganon = Anyone can do it.. just gotta destroy people, that's all there is to it.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i played a lot of ganon v falco yesterday
against a below avg falco
and we were going even
that ****s freakin hard
against a below avg falco
and we were going even
that ****s freakin hard
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya you really need to know your tools and when to use them at the right times.. it's so hard. And then if you get hit once, whoops!!! =P
yea, I'm a pretty average Falco and my set with Kage at RoM 2 was mad tight. I dunno why you guys subject yourselves to playing such a ****ty character 
.
.
Well......Kage is kinda bad vs Falco too.....
<3 you Kage, I really do, but I don't think the matchup is THAT bad at all because of Linguini. You can use that drive to **** it though. =)
Edit: No I don't have a number for the matchup anymore. If someone wants one I can go look at my vs Linguini vids and decide I guess lol.
<3 you Kage, I really do, but I don't think the matchup is THAT bad at all because of Linguini. You can use that drive to **** it though. =)
Edit: No I don't have a number for the matchup anymore. If someone wants one I can go look at my vs Linguini vids and decide I guess lol.
115 to -50 in Falco's favor.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I will forever stand by the fact that ganon is surprisingly tough unless you play like a gigantic homo Mogwai
Kuro Neko
Smash Cadet
You didn't even try to make them add up to 100.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well the real problem with that.. is that I don't have the chance to fight a Falco like you guys play which obv contributes me being bad at the matchup. No players in EC Canada has a pro Falco/Falco main. I can definitely defeat the players here if they decide to go Falco vs me but it's not their main so it's completely different.. they play differently.
So with that being said.. how do you practice something when there's no one to show you what you are doing wrong? (As an immediate solution)
Edit: I know I have to go down to the US to fight the great Falco mains, of course.. that's what I want to do.
unknown522
Some guy
I dunno. Falco controls ganon so hard. Even when he PS stuff, then he can easily be intercepted. If he goes in the air, it's a free combo at all times. Combos are easy to freestyle on ganon as well (on top of being able to psuedo combo/force him in a bad situation for free, thanks to his moves being too slow. Besides u-air, but it doesn't hit below him until late). His recovery options are bad and get ***** by lasers + d-air.
Speed is not an issue in the matchup, since ganon is mad slow and has a hard time approaching since he is a big, slow target with slow moves to boot (his jab is fast, but:
1 - requires him to be on the ground
2 - isn't that long
3 - can still be CC'd like other jabs). What's even worse for ganon is the fact that he can't CC moves like d-air, shine, and laser so it's a pain for him to punish.
As long as you don't try to go above ganon, then you won't get ***** by his u-air. If he's running away, then you can shoot his *** and turn him around, since he's obviously going to go for a b-air.
Going behind ganon when he's in his shield is ****, because he can't do anything, besides roll/WD retreat sometimes/try some gimmick that won't work if you just spam moves.
TLDR; Falco most definitely ***** ganon hard.
At least as hard as fox. If not worse.
Speed is not an issue in the matchup, since ganon is mad slow and has a hard time approaching since he is a big, slow target with slow moves to boot (his jab is fast, but:
1 - requires him to be on the ground
2 - isn't that long
3 - can still be CC'd like other jabs). What's even worse for ganon is the fact that he can't CC moves like d-air, shine, and laser so it's a pain for him to punish.
As long as you don't try to go above ganon, then you won't get ***** by his u-air. If he's running away, then you can shoot his *** and turn him around, since he's obviously going to go for a b-air.
Going behind ganon when he's in his shield is ****, because he can't do anything, besides roll/WD retreat sometimes/try some gimmick that won't work if you just spam moves.
TLDR; Falco most definitely ***** ganon hard.
At least as hard as fox. If not worse.