Pound 4 offical new ruleset

[Fortress | Sveet]

And let's not forget people can randomly fall through PS stage as well. =)

is that why floats is banned?

edit:: and what ken did at the end (upair off the top platform) could have happened on ANY stage with a top platform.

I really don't like that many composition fallacies are being committed. This is what the logic seems like to me:

Starts with: 3/5 Transformations would be banned if they were their own stage

Then you think "oh but the stage definitely shouldn't be banned"

and then you compromise and call it CP.

I know we are all probably familiar with this fallacy, but i will define it just in case.
"The fallacy of Composition is committed when a conclusion is drawn about a whole based on the features of its constituents when, in fact, no justification provided for the inference."

Can we talk about the stage as a whole instead of making this fallacious argument?

As you said, plank, FoD is a great marth stage. It really is. If i play my ground game, no character that relies on their air game should have a chance against me. Fox, Falco, Falcon and even Puff, and anyone below that on the tier list really stands no chance.

On the contrary, PS doesn't limit a character's ground or air game in neutral at all. The only transformation that actually effects a character's aerial or ground mobility is the rock transformation, which limits ground mobility by placing the players near each other.

 

[XIF]

is that why floats is banned?

edit:: and what ken did at the end (upair off the top platform) could have happened on ANY stage with a top platform.

I really don't like that many composition fallacies are being committed. This is what the logic seems like to me:

Starts with: 3/5 Transformations would be banned if they were their own stage

Then you think "oh but the stage definitely shouldn't be banned"

and then you compromise and call it CP.

I know we are all probably familiar with this fallacy, but i will define it just in case.
"The fallacy of Composition is committed when a conclusion is drawn about a whole based on the features of its constituents when, in fact, no justification provided for the inference."

Can we talk about the stage as a whole instead of making this fallacious argument?

As you said, plank, FoD is a great marth stage. It really is. If i play my ground game, no character that relies on their air game should have a chance against me. Fox, Falco, Falcon and even Puff, and anyone below that on the tier list really stands no chance.

On the contrary, PS doesn't limit a character's ground or air game in neutral at all. The only transformation that actually effects a character's aerial or ground mobility is the rock transformation, which limits ground mobility by placing the players near each other.

Sorry wrong try argument again.

The composition of PS is relevant to the stage as a whole. Disregarding the parts for the whole would be like trying to tell me that Corneria isn't bad because of the fin because that's only half the stage. Well it's still there and it still affects game play significantly.

I don't even care whether you think the grass formation is fair or not.

The Rock formation is absolutely atrocious and I haven't met a single person that would think otherwise.

The fire formation also has the same problems with the walls.

Oh, not to mention pretty much every transformation messes with the edges, to the point where you can't roll on to the stage properly or allow fox to infinite with that small bump, or it will mess with people's movement as the stage transforms.

And as I said before windmill messes with a whole lot of would be kills simply because the top fin was at one angle as opposed to another.

Whatever I don't care I think both stages should go personally so what the heck do I care. I'm just glad stages are making some progress.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sorry wrong try argument again.

The composition of PS is relevant to the stage as a whole. Disregarding the parts for the whole would be like trying to tell me that Corneria isn't bad because of the fin because that's only half the stage. Well it's still there and it still affects game play significantly.

1. the analogy is invalid. the fin on corneria and the stage changing have nothing in common.
2. i didn't say disregard the elements, i said look at the stage on the whole. everyone says "this transformation favors X and that one favors Y" but that doesn't mean the stage overall favors X or Y.

I don't even care whether you think the grass formation is fair or not.

The Rock formation is absolutely atrocious and I haven't met a single person that would think otherwise.

The fire formation also has the same problems with the walls.

i don't think any of them are fair. i don't think any stage is fair. again, what i'm saying is, don't just judge the stage by the individual parts.

Oh, not to mention pretty much every transformation messes with the edges, to the point where you can't roll on to the stage properly or allow fox to infinite with that small bump, or it will mess with people's movement as the stage transforms.

So its ok to be ignorant of the stage features? So BF should be banned because the edges sometimes cause players to suicide or die when on other stages that would never ever happen?

also, the "bumps" cannot be infinited against, just like the wall on corneria.

And as I said before windmill messes with a whole lot of would be kills simply because the top fin was at one angle as opposed to another.

yes that is true.

Whatever I don't care I think both stages should go personally so what the heck do I care. I'm just glad stages are making some progress.

I agree. But if one has to stay while the other goes, I think it should be FoD that goes.



------------------------edit line

I want to revise a few things i said.

First, the windmill doesn't mess with "a whole lot of would be kills". TBH i've only had it happen once or twice. How often are you hitting someone from the middle or far right with a move that is going to kill off the left? And how many of that few number is actually stopped by the windmill? unless you're talking about fighting on or under the windmill, in which case you can obviously tell where the windmill is and you should be able to easily formulate your strategy around it.

The edge that you can't roll onto the stage from, as far as i know, is only the right edge on the rock transformation.

And when i said your analogy is invalid, it isn't because they are both not parts of the stage, it is because of how it is composed. the transformations are a probability factor and are individual while the fin is a stationary portion of the stage.

 

[Europhoria]

Me and some other GTA people were talking. Stadium has it's transformations, but FoD generally removes the short hopping feature of many characters >_> Are we deciding that's a more neutral stage quality then stadium's transformations?

 

[Scar]

**** rules

ftr i hate FoD but it's better than story sometimes, fox/falco players would rather pick yoshi's than stadium sometimes but never fountain over stadium

 

[wool]

I dont know.
I just hate marths already with a passion, and learning that they have FoD as a neutral just scares me a little too much. Those low platforms make it easy for them to do a bunch of pivot utilts to uairs to fairs to ken combo (ok basically what I am saying is that they have a lot of combos with the low platforms) and with other characters its not really the same.

Both PS and FoD give characters advantages and disadvantages. (if only both weren't neutrals...)

 

[Skler]

People complain about FoD but not YS, I have no idea why.

Removes shorthopping is a joke. Just do your move earlier and l-cancel it on the platform that is clearly there, don't SH onto the platforms or realize the platforms are only really in your way for ONE of the platform heights, there are what, 4 of them (including underwater)?

Do people still think there isn't a visual cue when the platforms come out of the ground? Water sprays out, a platform appears on the ground and it moves slowly. The other changes have no cues, but it moves extremely slowly, slowly enough that it won't mess up an l-cancel or anything like that.

Marth being broken on it is absurd, he's less broken there than he is on Yoshi's.



As I love saying on threads about the Pound 4 ruleset, nice stage list, Plank.

 

[wool]

People complain about FoD but not YS, I have no idea why.

Removes shorthopping is a joke. Just do your move earlier and l-cancel it on the platform that is clearly there, don't SH onto the platforms or realize the platforms are only really in your way for ONE of the platform heights, there are what, 4 of them (including underwater)?

Do people still think there isn't a visual cue when the platforms come out of the ground? Water sprays out, a platform appears on the ground and it moves slowly. The other changes have no cues, but it moves extremely slowly, slowly enough that it won't mess up an l-cancel or anything like that.

Marth being broken on it is absurd, he's less broken there than he is on Yoshi's.



As I love saying on threads about the Pound 4 ruleset, nice stage list, Plank.

Only reason why I don't like FoD is the REALLY low platforms and how it changes. On YS it doesn't change. Thats all. Both FoD and PS aren't neutrals. But if I had to say which is more neutral, it would have to be FoD. But both stages can get very irritating.

 

[Plairnkk]

Then we agree. We needed 5 stages, not 4. If it was 4, FOD would be off too

 

[wool]

Then we agree. We needed 5 stages, not 4. If it was 4, FOD would be off too

Yep we do. I sort of changed my opinion from reading everyone elses comments (and playing on both stages for a while).
Im psyched Pound 4 is 20 minutes away from my house

 

[Plairnkk]

is it? we should play sometime man, i live 3 mins from the venue and always looking to play

 

[otg]

Plank, maybe you should just remove FoD and Yoshi's from Neutrals and put them on CPs. THen you got a nice odd ##.

 

[Plairnkk]

then an entirely new argument of those 3 stages and who those 3 specifically favor plays out and such, too tiring.

the argument at hand is almost played out, which is what i wanted, so im not gonna spark any new flares up. altho i admit id like those 3 better. 5 is just not as much of a change, and we all know smashers hate change so thats good XD

 

[DJMirror]

this is such a good trade

turn ps in a cp to ban mute city, japes, and Corneia

 

[JBM falcon08]

I could see FoD eventually going to CP.

The stage really helps characters like sheik, marth, falco, and maybe peach. The problem with the stage compared to others is you are constantly adapting to the physiology of the stage. Obviously FoD can be considered similar to PS but PS has drastic changes.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hey plank, I want to say that I'm done arguing over this ruleset. Its your tournament to run, and one bad stage off is better than 2 bad stages on.

But you are in the back room, so I wanted to ask this question: What is the SBR's definition of "neutral"?

 

[Cosmo!]

who cares its stake striking anyway so it shouldn't even matter

 

[VGmasta]

It should not, FoD is more neutral than PS, due to the transformations, which help some characters more than other.

Check this video out, last stock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPzvNyUbLqY

That's actually not very fair (even tho i liked that Ken won )

Wow what a stage-assisted gimp that was!

And let's not forget people can randomly fall through PS stage as well. =)

O ok fine. FoD wins over PS.

 

[Zephynazo]

Wow what a stage-assisted gimp that was!

It was wasn't it?

Which is why FoD > PS when it comes to "neutralality" <--- Shahaha

 

[Strong Badam]

I find the concept of stage striking in general to be a really stupid idea, and I hate it. A lot.

$0.02 from Random Smasher 8

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I find the concept of stage striking in general to be a really stupid idea, and I hate it. A lot.

$0.02 from Random Smasher 8

stage striking is good for just about every character because you don't have to play on your worst stage and you don't have to play on your opponent's best stage. your opponent does the same and you're left with a stage that neither player should hate in the match up.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I could see FoD eventually going to CP.

The stage really helps characters like sheik, marth, falco, and maybe peach. The problem with the stage compared to others is you are constantly adapting to the physiology of the stage. Obviously FoD can be considered similar to PS but PS has drastic changes.

You forgot Samus and Link (but who cares about them ) on your list of who the stage helps

Really, FoD is not even that good of a Marth stage. Half the time his head is sticking above the platform, letting him get hit by things like Fox's upsmash (wtf?) or an array of d-smashes (most of which are faster than any move Marth has). Yoshi's story is a far better Marth stage, simply because the platforms are safer (don't get me wrong, FoD is good for him, but I'd hardly ever counterpick anyone there over YS or BF)

 

[Ndot]

I hate when FoD changes my short hops attacks or whatever to standing position when it rises from the ground lol. Then I get hit lol. =( Edgeguarding standing ontop of the ledge is annoying when the platform raises you up and makes you miss your edgeguard opportunity lolz.

It has cool colours though. :D

 

[Niko45]

Stage Strike all stages > SS 3 neutrals (BF, FD, DL64) > SS 5 neutrals no matter which stage (FoD/PS) is excluded.

 

[Strong Badam]

stage striking is good for just about every character because you don't have to play on your worst stage and you don't have to play on your opponent's best stage. your opponent does the same and you're left with a stage that neither player should hate in the match up.

unfortunately, some characters have more advantageous stages than other characters in match-ups.

 

[pockyD]

i would say that's part of the character being innately good

fox's ability to play anywhere is a big part of why he's the best in the game

the goal of a 'neutral' stage isn't to make the matchup even; it's to make the matchup reflect its natural balance

 

[HiIH]

I think we should all say **** it and allow three stages, and three stages only.

Brinstar Depths, Icicle Mountain, and Big Blue.

GG Melee Back Room.

 

[Deleted member]

as leader of the MBR, I officially state that Temple is way more fun that the first 2. Good call on Big Blue though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'd do that stage list, with low tier only. Sounds fun

 

[HiIH]

So... eliminate all stages but Big Blue for Neutral and CP.

Stage striking is allowed.

So is infinite stage ban after the first match, except for the chosen stage from the first match.

DSR is not in effect.

 

[adhdsoad]

Hella marth biased.

 

[VGmasta]

I had never done stage striking before until this past Friday. The idea is mad legit, I approve.

 

[The Good Doctor]

chances of winning on brinstar is nearly impossible but doable

What does this even mean?

 

[Boxob.]

Switch FoD for PS do it plank. We all know you hate PS, but cmon.

This.

And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr7OAAP-4-g&feature=related

 

[P. O. F.]

I think PS as a counter pick make sense.

Fox and Falco are rampant here while the rest of the cast is average. The fact that Fox also has an infinite here is a good enough reason to debate this as a counter pick. LOL.

It really doesn't matter if the stage "warns" you if its changing or not because it still messes up so many characters approaches/strategies and completely stops any momentum that anyone has for about a good ten seconds and goes back to a camping for the grab restart of the match. Last I checked no one really dominates FOD aside from Sheik and even then....it's not exactly **** by any means. PS is definitely the most balogni out of all the neutrals.


I will agree that FOD messes up edge guards but that really only affects Marth the most. In the same sense though Marth can almost friggin cover the whole stage with an fsmash on both sides from the center of the stage. lol. Marth I feel is very good here and its one of his best stages.

Euphoria-You said PS WITHOUT stage changes was nice, right? Ok, what about the other 2/3rds of the stage? That's not even a majority of the stage. You got a windmill with random ledges that only the buttom far left one is good for Marth, a random rock that no one goes near with a Fox infinite, and a ledge on the right thats ****s everyone up. Nice.

FD-Falcon, Jigs, Peach, Marth, Fox, Falco, Roy, GAW, DK, and so many characters do nicely here.
Battlefield-Same thing, a very well balanced stage. Everyones recovery is actually gayed here. No advantage.
PS-Spacies almost always have the advantage.
FOD-Just Sheik really. Falcon gets *****.
Yoshi-Ganon, Sheik, Marth, Falco, Fox. Bowser, Roy.
Dreamland-Ganon, Jigs, Peach, Fox, Falco, Samus.

Yeah, Pokemon Stadium is balanced.

I mean honestly, just think about it for a sec. Is it really THAT far out of the loop to say PS is the least balanced? I mean it might not be worthy of a CP but it definitely is the least balanced.

 

[TresChikon]

Isn't FoD like Falco **** land?

 

[P. O. F.]

Isn't FoD like Falco **** land?

I think it depends on the Falco. If its a laser happy Falco.....no. If they are a combo crazed Falco....yes. In my experience it depends on the Falco.

 

[Roneblaster]

So why does this stage list so good for marth? Because he sucks on PS?

 

[JBM falcon08]

Less gay stages to counterpick.

Marth's will always be left with a stage that they "like" in most first matches.

Marth vs fox- Say fox strikes fd. marth will strike dl64. This is where i'd like to say as Fox i would strike FoD. Marth is left with Battlefield or YS.

I would say that i like my odds on those two stages as marth

 

[Zephynazo]

The other characters also does ok / well on that stage, it's just that it favors Marth a lil bit more. But then again, it depends on the matchup also.