Pound 4 offical new ruleset

[Plairnkk]

It's bigger than yoshis which also has the cloud, shy guys, and smaller edges/ceiling.

Why should i have to wait around for a minute on a neutral level? Talk about a momentum ****.

 

[DoH]

But it has nice high ceilings.

And the water tells you when the fountain is pushing up a platform, no johns.

 

[pockyD]

sure you CAN 'wait out' the completely unfair transformations, but why should you have to?

you can 'wait out' the rising acid parts of brinstar or the non-boat of rainbow cruise

there's nothing to gain from keeping stadium aside from people who are resistant to change for no reason being whiny about it

and with stage striking, the ultimate impact is little to none; i bet it affects the starting stage for less than 2% of matches, removing pokemon stadium instead of adding another stage

though i personally believe that since you have stage striking, all 9 stages in the set should be available for striking anyway, i doubt i can find more than 10 people that agree with me

 

[wool]

OK this is probably just me, but I can't really "see" as clearly on FoD than say YS. Maybe its the background, or maybe I am just crazy. Anyone else feel this way?

 

[Plairnkk]

It's bigger than yoshis which also has the cloud, shy guys, and smaller edges/ceiling.

Why should i have to wait around for a minute on a neutral level? Talk about a momentum ****.

 

[otg]

I approve of this stage list, and if this is the direction the MBR is headed, I'm excited to see what they do next. Also, whoever says that PS isn't broken for Spacies is ****ing ********, I'm sorry. The only change I would like to see if to move FoD to stage cps too. Let's be real, there are NOT that many good neutral levels, I don't see the problem in only having 4.

On a side note, DK64 is one of the campiest stages in the game, so anyone who says that should be on neutral needs to reevaluate somethings about there gameplay and how they view the metagame.

 

[Plairnkk]

The problem with 4 is it doesn't work with stage striking. You need 5.

 

[otg]

True that, in that regard FoD is legit.

 

[Mew2King]

let's just only have FD allowed it's flat with skill the only factor

 

[thumbswayup]

No way, saying PS is more neutral than FOD is a joke. Slightly moving platforms and totally standard ledges or a completely transforming stage that allows infinites and is huge which promotes the same characters to run away and shoot lasers and camp while the sides of the stage have horrible camera angles and you can get stuck under the ledges depending on the angle you go.

None of these things themselves would be that bad, but ALL of them combined on a NEUTRAL stage? No way, man.

How can you even compare that to platforms moving up and down? lol

If you don't ban wobbling you will look like the biggest ****** TO in history.

 

[otg]

If you don't ban wobbling you will look like the biggest ****** TO in history.

There is a difference here. The stage allows infinites that are normaly not possible on any other stage. Ice Climbers being able to wobble is completely unreliant on stage, which is a completely different issue entirely. The two issues should be handled differently.

 

[Hax]

^not at all thumbs lol

 

[thumbswayup]

Well, his basis for PS being a CP is because of the two transformations that allow Fox to infinite. So why in the hell would it even be considered to allow wobbling, which takes FAR less skill and degrades tourny matches to Brawl status, except the infinite takes skill in Brawl LOOOOL

and I say this as a freaking Falcon main that doesn't care if the spacies take me to PS. I actually don't mind the new ruleset too much (though I do think FoD is more random than PS but w/e). I just think the hypocrisy of allowing wobbling after all this would be astounding.

 

[pockyD]

it's two transformations that completely change the way the game is played relative to the rest of the 'neutrals' and even the other transformations on PS

the infinites are just a small symptom of that; it changes the gameplay for nearly every character

 

[otg]

Thumbs, the infinite is only part of the reason why the stage is banned, not the sole reason. You also evidentally did not read my post, Icies infinite is not stage dependant and is not part of the stage discussion. Whether or not it should be banned is a separate argument altogether.

 

[thumbswayup]

Yes, but the fact is they are both infinites and one can be done any place anytime and is much easier. I know there are other reasons for PS being a CP, but the infinite is the MAIN reason so I don't see why you'd want to let a character just kill you off ONE grab at any point in time, regardless of the stage or where he grabs you on it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It's bigger than yoshis which also has the cloud, shy guys, and smaller edges/ceiling.

Why should i have to wait around for a minute on a neutral level? Talk about a momentum ****.

you could say its bigger than yoshi's, but yoshi's is a lot more consistant that FoD. You can't even see where the platforms are if you are on one side of the stage. Platforms are a HUGE deal in this game, and I don't understand how you can write off FoD platforms as being anywhere close to fair. You HAVE to fight with the unfair platforms, but you don't have to fight in an unfair situation on PS.

In PS you can simply ignore the unfair stage by waiting or fighting in a neutral zone (THE RIGHT SIDE OF EVERY TRANSFORMATION).

Yoshi's you can know exactly where the cloud is every second of the match. The shy guys are unfair but its a small hitstun delay. The times you would miss because of the shy guys (when you would otherwise hit) are about equal to the times you hit because of them (when you would otherwise miss). In the majority of cases when you hit a shy guy, the result is the same whether it was there or not (you should have missed and you missed; you should have hit and you hit)

From my experience, the randomness is far more extreme on FoD than PS or Yoshis, by far. Isn't that what the rule set was about? Removing randomness?

 

[Plairnkk]

It's about not only reducing randomness, but promoting fairness. Stadium isn't random at all, it's just ******** sometimes.

 

[thumbswayup]

That's funny because wobbling is ******** all the time.

 

[Plairnkk]

thumbs quit *****ing about wobbling, i havent even decided yet. i ****ing hate wobbling as much as the next guy, but that's a decision ill make in the next few weeks. u calling it ******** isnt gonna sway my opinion one way or another. and even worse, it's redundant, cuz we're all quite aware its ********.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

See, i thought the original purpose for the ruleset was the prove who was the better player by removing random factors and banning stages that allow broken strategies.

And back to your post, promoting fairness. I agree. How is it fair that you must (MUST not wait it out or go to another area, MUST) fight with the FoD platforms moving semi-constantly?

Is it really more fair than a stage that warns you of the change ~10 seconds ahead of time and then stays stationary for ~30 seconds and then reverts back to one of the fairest stages in the game?

Every stage change has 3 locations to camp, and there is at least 1 that is good for each character.

 

[Plairnkk]

Yes, it is. The platforms move heights, I don't understand the issue. Maybe it's because I'm a player who is good on platforms with all my characters.

You can learn to be good on fountain by mastering platforms. I'd like to see anyone learn to catch a fox with a slow character on Pokemon Stadium. Or learn to get out of a wall infinite. Or learn to see below the ledges where the camera won't let you see. There are a LOT of reasons people argue for stadium to be a CP.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Plank, fox can't run forever on PS, there isn't a top platform. Eventually he would have to fullhop/double jump over you.

You can SDI out of a wall infinite or you can simply choose not to get put in that situation ahead of time (seriously, you have this option and its much easier to avoid than a wobble)

For the camera, I've noticed that but you should know the stage. Being ignorant to a stationary or consistant feature of the stage is not something non-neutral. (this is like saying RC should be banned because some of the platforms have edges and some don't. You can play the stage, you can know what is what, its the player's fault not the stage's)

my beef with FoD is the platforms are completely random and the heights are unfair.

 

[pockyD]

I know there are other reasons for PS being a CP, but the infinite is the MAIN reason so I don't see why you'd want to let a character just kill you off ONE grab at any point in time, regardless of the stage or where he grabs you on it.

the infinite is not the 'main' reason, like i said; it's just one of many aspects of gameplay that are affected by the terrain. in other words, it's just a posterchild of how it changes for all characters, not just for fox and his opponents

In PS you can simply ignore the unfair stage by waiting or fighting in a neutral zone (THE RIGHT SIDE OF EVERY TRANSFORMATION).

...only if your opponent chooses to fight there with you. Otherwise, you end up in a corneria-type situation

From my experience, the randomness is far more extreme on FoD than PS or Yoshis, by far. Isn't that what the rule set was about? Removing randomness?

your experience is wrong then, because it seems you haven't noticed that 1/3 of the time, PS transforms into a completely different stage than the thing we stare at on the select screen and wish didn't periodically randomly become something completely ridiculous

 

[thumbswayup]

I could also say try fighting a Sheik with Falcon on FoD but you've never had to worry about that

Pocky, the other reasons Plank gave for PS being a CP aren't even that bad. And it always seems to boil down to him talking about how Fox is amazing on that stage. Once again, it is only TWO transformations that allow the shine infinite and you'd have to be beyond ******** to go to the corner on the left side of the tree against a Fox. The only really campy transformation is Brokeback Mountain all the others are just fine. The platforms on FoD GREATLY favor a character like Sheik and GREATLY ruin a character like Falcon.

 

[pockyD]

with stage striking, not a worry, only an idiot falcon or SS would have to play there if they didn't want to

this is really still a non-issue

 

[Niko45]

Wow looks like I need to go "re-evaluate my gameplay and understanding of the metagame." Will do. Anyway, if Kongo can't be neutral I say take out Yoshis and FoD and just have BF, FD, DL64 as the neutrals.

Edit: Like Pocky has been saying, this is all an extremely non-issue because ALL stages should be involved in stage striking. Your rules even say if players agree to go against the rules than that is fine (which is the same as what would happen if, by chance, 2 players stage striked the 9 stages and were left with a CP.

Real issue is not neutral vs CP but what is allowed in general. Rainbow and probably Brinstar should not be allowed.

 

[thumbswayup]

Well yeah, I'm always going to ban FoD. I'm just wondering why Stadium has to be the CP when FoD is less neutral than it (it's also way more hated by the many players that I've encountered over the years).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

your experience is wrong then, because it seems you haven't noticed that 1/3 of the time, PS transforms into a completely different stage than the thing we stare at on the select screen and wish didn't periodically randomly become something completely ridiculous

It seems you haven't noticed that 95% of the time FoD is changing and giving random unfair advantages. There is 0% skill and 100% luck to the platform changes on FoD.

The random changes on PS reminds me of the item ban. While people cried about items being unfair/favoring certain characters, the real reason was the random spawn points and exploding containers. On PS you know where everything is coming, even if the stage was selected randomly. There is a lot of skill involved with positioning yourself on that stage, and even if you're put in a "corneria" situation it is resolved in 30 seconds in the worst case scenario.

 

[pockyD]

Pocky, the other reasons Plank gave for PS being a CP aren't even that bad. And it always seems to boil down to him talking about how Fox is amazing on that stage. Once again, it is only TWO transformations that allow the shine infinite and you'd have to be beyond ******** to go to the corner on the left side of the tree against a Fox. The only really campy transformation is Brokeback Mountain all the others are just fine. The platforms on FoD GREATLY favor a character like Sheik and GREATLY ruin a character like Falcon.

Why should we worry about things that 'aren't that bad' (which may or may not even be true) if we can just avoid it altogether?

the fact that it's pretty much mandatory to camp on the tree or mountain (and everyone arguing against PS DOES say that 'you can just camp it out') speaks volumes about how much PS affects gameplay relative to the other 'neutral'-considered stages

i don't see why the stadium and FoD arguments have to be connected to each other; frankly, stadium is CLEARLY much less neutral and less predictable than FoD, and including it in your crusade to remove FoD only hurts your case because it's hard to believe that you really think two platforms going up and down is worse than two platforms going up and down then a giant mountain, tree, or windmill appearing for 30 seconds

i think you'd be better off arguing against FoD without referring to stadium

It seems you haven't noticed that 95% of the time FoD is changing and giving random unfair advantages. There is 0% skill and 100% luck to the platform changes on FoD.

Why do you deem it an 'unfair' advantage?

and there's no skill in maneuvering around different platform heights? do you only play jigglypuffs or something?

The random changes on PS reminds me of the item ban. While people cried about items being unfair/favoring certain characters, the real reason was the random spawn points and exploding containers. On PS you know where everything is coming, even if the stage was selected randomly. There is a lot of skill involved with positioning yourself on that stage, and even if you're put in a "corneria" situation it is resolved in 30 seconds in the worst case scenario.

just because you know it's coming doesn't make it more or less fair. Poke floats is 100% predictable; why aren't we arguing about making that neutral?

and the 'corneria' situation resolves itself... for another 45 seconds or a minute or whatever until it may just happen again

why deal with it at all?

the best question to ask yourself is that if stadium had NOT been random for the past 6 years, would you be clamoring for it to be added? I'm fairly certain that 95% of the argument behind keep it is that 'it's always been there', whether you're conscious of it or not

 

[D20]

EVERY stage gives one character a slight (if not great) advantage and the other a disadvantage. There are no true "neutral" stages. If the goal is pick the 5 most balanced (although this term is still relative) stages for neutrals, then I suppose the new rules are doing what they are supposed to do.

However, I believe that 2009 has shown how dynamic the metagame can still be. I feel that a dramatic change in rules is potentially dangerous at this time. Does this means the results of Pound 4 will be completely different from those of Genesis? Probably not; top players will always find a way to win. Unfortunately, the majority of the community is not at that level. As much as I'd like to believe this change is for the better, I'll remain somewhat skeptical until more results come in.

 

[Plairnkk]

Well east coast will be using these rules til pound, so we will see.

 

[Niko45]

All these long-winded posts about Neutral vs CP... with STAGE STRIKING it does not matter since you will be eliminating stages you don't want to play on. Every stage allowable by CP is legitimate for the first match because it is DECIDED ON by the players not selected on RANDOM.

The focus of this argument is completely wrong.

 

[Plairnkk]

*Sheds a tear*

Thank you.... finally...someone understands!

 

[D20]

There are many people that do not understand what "stage striking" means. If I didn't experience it first hand in a tournament I probably would not understand it either. Yes... I am that stupid.

EDIT: Actually, someone should make a "stage striking" tutorial video to place in the rules page for Pound 4.

 

[pockyD]

EDIT: Actually, someone should make a "stage striking" tutorial video to place in the rules page for Pound 4.

not a terrible idea; if nobody does it by sunday i'll probably do it

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Why should we worry about things that 'aren't that bad' (which may or may not even be true) if we can just avoid it altogether?

because there is something unfair on every stage.

the fact that it's pretty much mandatory to camp on the tree or mountain (and everyone arguing against PS DOES say that 'you can just camp it out') speaks volumes about how much PS affects gameplay relative to the other 'neutral'-considered stages

what does "gameplay relative to the other 'neutral'-consisdered stages" mean? I'm still playing melee on every stage and I dont understand how the game suddenly changes forms on different levels. The levels don't force the change of style, they only provide an outlet for it.

i don't see why the stadium and FoD arguments have to be connected to each other; frankly, stadium is CLEARLY much less neutral and less predictable than FoD, and including it in your crusade to remove FoD only hurts your case because it's hard to believe that you really think two platforms going up and down is worse than two platforms going up and down then a giant mountain, tree, or windmill appearing for 30 seconds

they are connected because we need 5 stages on neutral for a stage strike. The difference for me is the warning. FoD, as far as i know, offers no warning before the stage change and you cannot know the position of the stage on every part of the stage by only seeing a portion.

Why do you deem it an 'unfair' advantage?

un-fair
disproportionate; undue; beyond what is proper or fitting

the changes give different advantages to different characters and players on a 100% random basis.

and there's no skill in maneuvering around different platform heights? do you only play jigglypuffs or something?

Marth vs Puff last stock, marth at 25% and puff at 110%. puff under a plaform and marth comes from the top and tries to waveland on the platform, right as it starts to move. He airdodges and gets rested and loses the match. Fair?

just because you know it's coming doesn't make it more or less fair. Poke floats is 100% predictable; why aren't we arguing about making that neutral?

Pokefloats isn't neutral because the stage is consistently moving and gives little opportunity to certain characters (ICs and Bowser come to mind). It has nothing to do with the predictability of the stage.

and the 'corneria' situation resolves itself... for another 45 seconds or a minute or whatever until it may just happen again

And then they can either choose to fight in neutral or approach each other in the camp zones. 100% player choice.

 

[Plairnkk]

Wrong, the water splashes and splatters up on FOD before the platforms come up.

 

[Niko45]

*Sheds a tear*

Thank you.... finally...someone understands!

Wait...so then...if you agree...end the pointless neutral vs slightly more neutral insanity and open up the stage strike to all stages...

I can write 20 posts about Pokemon Stadium stage changes or I could just strike it when the time comes. Either way it's not getting played. End the madness.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yea, i do kinda like the 7 stage strike more than the 5 stage strike. More diversity and equal options for all characters.


Plus it usually ends up at FD anyways XD