Pound 4 offical new ruleset

[Plairnkk]

Because the first match is meant to be played on a neutral. We arent going to strike down the entire list of stages every set. 5 is a good number for neutrals, so thats why stadium got taken off. I do agree, though, that if KJ and PS were both still neutral making it 7, 99% of matches would STILL end up being played on the same levels for the first match.

That being said, though, I don't want to risk having watch any good sets that have KJ as the first match. **** is such garbage sometimes. So instead of 7, 5.

 

[pockyD]

because there is something unfair on every stage.

fairness is obviously relative. I hope i don't have to explain why fox running around is slightly less broken on dreamland than on hyrule temple

what does "gameplay relative to the other 'neutral'-consisdered stages" mean? I'm still playing melee on every stage and I dont understand how the game suddenly changes forms on different levels. The levels don't force the change of style, they only provide an outlet for it.

It means that the neutral stages are chosen with a certain playstyle in mind (though I don't know what's up with FD being there, honestly) - the people who make the stage rules have some sort of 'default playstyle/stagestyle' in mind, then choose the stages that best approximate it to be neutrals.

do you play the same way on battlefield as you would on poke floats? the stage influences how you play; that's why we have stages to begin with

they are connected because we need 5 stages on neutral for a stage strike. The difference for me is the warning. FoD, as far as i know, offers no warning before the stage change and you cannot know the position of the stage on every part of the stage by only seeing a portion.

but knowing that position isn't relevant if the given position isn't unfair

like i said, you can know where all the poke floats are at any given time, but it doesn't make them any less ridiculous

un-fair
disproportionate; undue; beyond what is proper or fitting

the changes give different advantages to different characters and players on a 100% random basis.

no it doesn't; it's fairly well documented (and i'm pretty sure you've even mentioned it yourself) that the moving platforms favor characters that don't rely on shfflcs and disadvantage characters who are mid shfflc at the moment (hey, you can always back off and 'camp it out' if you're not already stuck mid-move!)

the advantages/disadvantages are fairly deterministic, not unlike battlefield making it difficult for fox to recover from below or yoshi's story being difficult for characters with mostly vertical-based recoveries

Marth vs Puff last stock, marth at 25% and puff at 110%. puff under a plaform and marth comes from the top and tries to waveland on the platform, right as it starts to move. He airdodges and gets rested and loses the match. Fair?

i don't really want to indulge your anecdotal AND hypothetical evidence, but it sounds like marth made a completely avoidable mistake; the platforms don't just instantly vanish

Pokefloats isn't neutral because the stage is consistently moving and gives little opportunity to certain characters (ICs and Bowser come to mind)

i wasn't actually asking you a question, i was making a point that 'randomness' is far from the only factor, something you agreed with, anyway

And then they can either choose to fight in neutral or approach each other in the camp zones. 100% player choice.

50% player choice, 50% the other player's choice

we can all fight on the top part of great bay, but the fact that your opponent won't necessarily play that way is what keeps it from being legal

Because the first match is meant to be played on a neutral. We arent going to strike down the entire list of stages every set. 5 is a good number for neutrals, so thats why stadium got taken off. I do agree, though, that if KJ and PS were both still neutral making it 7, 99% of matches would STILL end up being played on the same levels for the first match.

That being said, though, I don't want to risk having watch any good sets that have KJ as the first match. **** is such garbage sometimes. So instead of 7, 5.

i'm completely in favor of an all-stage (9) stage strike set, but there's logistical concerns in that it takes longer (barely, anyway), and plank is right in that far more often than not, you'll end upon the same stage as if you struck from 5

using all stages is ideal though, because I disagree that the first match is meant to be played on a neutral as we define neutral now. We probably all agree that the "fairest" stage varies greatly by character matchup, such that the 'fairest' stage in peach vs jigglypuff might just indeed be brinstar (i have no idea if that's actually true). Giving the players the option to choose for themselves what their 'neutral' stage is would be the ideal approach

 

[XIF]

1: Plairnk is a hero

2: Anyone Most people who want CP's allowed aren't even good enough to win money at tournaments, and they want a stage to increase their chances instead of getting better

3: As much as I prefer Pokemon Stadium over Fountain of Dreams personally, it makes the most logical sense to put that into CP over Fountain. The transformations blows, everyone of them. Anyone who tries to argue that the Water and Grass formations are all right haven't experienced Fox McCloud on Grass, or a competent Falco on Water (or had kills taken from them because of the windmill happened to be in a proper part of it's rotation)

4: Pound 4 will be the greatest tournament to date. (OC3 might have been with obviously better stage rule set but... west coast <_<)

5: thumbswayup, I will 50 dollar money match you at pound 4 if I can go if you can manage to beat me with wobbling only. I won't even play Peach, try to get past my Fox or Falco with that nonsense. Whoops! I have a 1 frame move to cover ALL MY ERRORS. Too bad IC's.

That's not the point you say? You don't play IC's? Too bad, you're still ********.

and probably bad at smash.

so shut it.

 

[Plairnkk]

Yeah and generally you know what character your opponent plays (at a high level) so stage striking allows you to both to compromise to the most fair stage between those two characters on the first match, since that's the overall goal - to test skill.


I would never do a 9 stage strike because the thought of rainbow cruise first match, though unlikely, makes me cringe.

 

[Niko45]

So wait Plank let me understand your reasoning:

You find it unappealing to watch a round 1 match on KJ64 on youtube.

Since stage strike requires an odd # of stages, that means PokeStadium is out.

Now regardless of FAIRNESS, a lot of players like to play on PS, so it is quite possible that you are sacrificing a very common stage that would normally result from stage strike if allowed - and your doing this for the sake of not having to watch the once in a blue moon match on KJ64...even when it would have been those players CHOICE to play on KJ64 in the 1st place.

---

So match 1 is supposed to be played on a neutral, but if players agree to override the rules that is fine. So if 2 players AGREE to play on KJ64, that's fine. But stage striking to it....is not...

...and as a result PS, an actually realistically played stage, is sacrificed.

 

[thumbswayup]

Why should we worry about things that 'aren't that bad' (which may or may not even be true) if we can just avoid it altogether?

the fact that it's pretty much mandatory to camp on the tree or mountain (and everyone arguing against PS DOES say that 'you can just camp it out') speaks volumes about how much PS affects gameplay relative to the other 'neutral'-considered stages

i don't see why the stadium and FoD arguments have to be connected to each other; frankly, stadium is CLEARLY much less neutral and less predictable than FoD, and including it in your crusade to remove FoD only hurts your case because it's hard to believe that you really think two platforms going up and down is worse than two platforms going up and down then a giant mountain, tree, or windmill appearing for 30 seconds

i think you'd be better off arguing against FoD without referring to stadium



Why do you deem it an 'unfair' advantage?

and there's no skill in maneuvering around different platform heights? do you only play jigglypuffs or something?

just because you know it's coming doesn't make it more or less fair. Poke floats is 100% predictable; why aren't we arguing about making that neutral?

and the 'corneria' situation resolves itself... for another 45 seconds or a minute or whatever until it may just happen again

why deal with it at all?

the best question to ask yourself is that if stadium had NOT been random for the past 6 years, would you be clamoring for it to be added? I'm fairly certain that 95% of the argument behind keep it is that 'it's always been there', whether you're conscious of it or not

I think you're forgetting most of us don't camp and like to approach and be aggressive in this game. You're assuming every Fox/Falco will camp you on Stadium and that is not the case.

1: Plairnk is a hero

2: Anyone who wants CP's allowed isn't even good enough to win money at tournaments, and they want a stage to increase their chances instead of getting better

3: As much as I prefer Pokemon Stadium over Fountain of Dreams personally, it makes the most logical sense to put that into CP over Fountain. The transformations blows, everyone of them. Anyone who tries to argue that the Water and Grass formations are all right haven't experienced Fox McCloud on Grass, or a competent Falco on Water (or had kills taken from them because of the windmill happened to be in a proper part of it's rotation)

4: Pound 4 will be the greatest tournament to date. (OC3 might have been with obviously better stage rule set but... west coast <_<)

5: thumbswayup, I will 50 dollar money match you at pound 4 if I can go if you can manage to beat me with wobbling only. I won't even play Peach, try to get past my Fox or Falco with that nonsense. Whoops! I have a 1 frame move to cover ALL MY ERRORS. Too bad IC's.

That's not the point you say? You don't play IC's? Too bad, you're still ********.

and probably bad at smash.

so shut it.

You are truly an idiot if you support wobbling.

I don't play ICs at all but I'll still mm you

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

using all stages is ideal though, because I disagree that the first match is meant to be played on a neutral as we define neutral now. We probably all agree that the "fairest" stage varies greatly by character matchup, such that the 'fairest' stage in peach vs jigglypuff might just indeed be brinstar (i have no idea if that's actually true). Giving the players the option to choose for themselves what their 'neutral' stage is would be the ideal approach

i agree with this and the rest i will simply let slide because nobody is listening to me anyways.

 

[Plairnkk]

You're twisting my words around.

I needed 5 stages. The current neutral list is 6 stages.

One had to go.

It is pretty unanimously agreed that Stadium and Fountain are the two "least neutral" neutrals. However from all the arguments I've read and personal experience, the people who try to say stadium is more neutral than FOD are really, really grasping and by that basis mixed with the vote (not a big deal I know, but just a FACTOR into my decision making) I decided on stadium to be the one to go.

I don't really know any characters who get ****ed hard on FOD aside from falcon? And I know Scar and G-reg both love that stage. Usually it's just mediocre falcons who are bad with platforms who complain.

 

[XIF]

I think you're forgetting most of us don't camp and like to approach and be aggressive in this game. You're assuming every Fox/Falco will camp you on Stadium and that is not the case.



You are truly an idiot if you support wobbling.

I don't play ICs at all but I'll still mm you

If you can beat me with all wobbling, go ahead.

As for most people don't camp... well, some do. And they're the one's playing correctly in that situation. That's like telling me that IC's grab game isn't that good because most people can't use it very well.

Wobbling is really good, but there are sooooo many ways to avoid it that I hardly even consider it when I play against IC's. I'm more concerned about getting grabbed period because most good IC's are just going to kill you from a grab anyway, wobbling or not.

Fox and Falco have a 1 frame move to prevent themselves from getting grabbed.

Marth shouldn't even be in range to get grabbed in the first place, even if the WD out of shield, proper spacing is going to keep marth safe every time.

Sheik... well no one said that IC's weren't a good character, but honestly, Her aerials are so risk free and have such good range that it's much like marth really. Plus you have needles.

Peach has Float cancels and down smashes, we already know that whole thing.

Ganondorf's aerials push IC's so far back and have such a long shield stun time that IC's should never be getting grabs against a Ganondorf that can at least l-cancel.

Captain Falcon almost never gets shield grabbed by anyone to begin with.

Jigglypuff is going to be in the air constantly anyway.

I could keep going down the list. And this is just character's abilities to avoid the grab. Let's not get into separation strategies.

 

[Plairnkk]

I love you Xif, but I dare you to try and use Sheik vs Chu. There's a reason he's never lost to one, IC **** sheik senseless. T.T

 

[pockyD]

I would never do a 9 stage strike because the thought of rainbow cruise first match, though unlikely, makes me cringe.

well the point of it is that if rainbow cruise or kj64 is used for the first match, it's because both players agreed it was the 'most fair'

sucks for the spectators i suppose though

 

[XIF]

I love you Xif, but I dare you to try and use Sheik vs Chu. There's a reason he's never lost to one, IC **** sheik senseless. T.T

Well... that's why I hesitated really on Sheik. Sheik is the one character that I can think of that can't just "not get grabbed," but she's still **** good at it.

I have seen Chillin and Forward use Sheik against Chu to some success, albeit no wins <_<;

And well... I haven't really lost to a Falco (except for my training buddy Lambchops) in tournament before, but I don't think people consider Peach to be a **** counterpick against Falco. And the Falco's i've beaten include Shiz, Forward, Viperboy, Eggm, etc.

The problem is that 90% of them use Fox ;_;

So I will say that if you're a Sheik player, go ahead and rage, but not about the character, just the matchup.

 

[thumbswayup]

You're twisting my words around.

I needed 5 stages. The current neutral list is 6 stages.

One had to go.

It is pretty unanimously agreed that Stadium and Fountain are the two "least neutral" neutrals. However from all the arguments I've read and personal experience, the people who try to say stadium is more neutral than FOD are really, really grasping and by that basis mixed with the vote (not a big deal I know, but just a FACTOR into my decision making) I decided on stadium to be the one to go.

I don't really know any characters who get ****ed hard on FOD aside from falcon? And I know Scar and G-reg both love that stage. Usually it's just mediocre falcons who are bad with platforms who complain.

Uh, what? Last I remember Scar bans FoD a lot and hates it. Don't just randomly state Falcons you aren't sure about for loving that terrible stage to support your clearly biased opinion.

G-reg is the only Falcon I've ever encountered who likes that stage.

 

[Plairnkk]

Yeah clearly. I think wobbling breaks the core physics of melee, which is why I would ban it if I did, not because it's "too broken".

I can get Chu down to like one stock sometimes with sheik, but I'm better off with fox =(

@Thumbs since he always bans battlefield vs me and I'm Sheik, supposedly the best character on that stage I assumed he liked it. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[pockyD]

sheik also dies from a grab guaranteed anyway on most stages, even without wobbling, so her difficulty in avoiding grabs isn't a real argument against wobbling

I have seen Chillin and Forward use Sheik against Chu to some success, albeit no wins <_<;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE5YxKffCtQ

not a set win though, if that's what you were going for

 

[thumbswayup]

Hang on, in your set vs Scar at Shell Shocked you guys played both on BF and Fod (I think the FoD match was during the $20 mm). Sooo did he ban one in tourny and the other for the mm?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't really know any characters who get ****ed hard on FOD aside from falcon? And I know Scar and G-reg both love that stage. Usually it's just mediocre falcons who are bad with platforms who complain.

I get gayed by the FoD platforms all the time as marth. usually when i'm edgeguarding, about to fsmash for a kill, and a platform rises and my fsmash misses. Its all random while PS is only random by which stage comes not when a change is coming.

 

[ZoSo]

Azen has beaten Chu with Sheik.

 

[Niko45]

Plank stage striking is a system that gives players preference where round 1 is played, as opposed to a random selection among a small number of stages that other people have told them are "fair."

With stage strike the whole ambiguity of "fairness" goes out the window because now it's pretty much player preference aka "popularity" deciding where round 1 is played.

If ur narrowing down SS, it should be based on what stages are REALISTICALLY going to result after SS. PS is a stage that WILL result from SS from time to time where as KJ64 will basically come up once a year at most.

There is no reason why you need 5 stages as opposed to 7, anyway.

THINK ABOUT THIS:

This is what is required for KJ64 to result from SS:

Of the 7, both players need to hate 3 stages more than KJ64. Both players also need to hate the complete, exact opposite stages.

Realistically, that is virtually impossible to ever occur.

 

[Plairnkk]

@Pocky I already knew about that set, but I also know it's not legit at all, unfortunately. He may have actually banned yoshis or DL first set, I don't really remember. I just remember discussing with him before tourney that he doesn't ban fountain vs Sheiks.

@Zoso yeah you got me, he has. But hes also beaten Chu with probably 20 other characters. Nonetheless, I was wrong though.

@Sveet FOD is so good for marth, you probably just don't have as good of a platform game as you should.

 

[pockyD]

KJ64 came up multiple times at genesis, which used a 7-stage stage strike

then again, so did stadium

 

[Niko45]

Oh.

Even so, it was their choice.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@Sveet FOD is so good for marth, you probably just don't have as good of a platform game as you should.

i know its a good marth stage. i still don't think its a fair stage though.

edit:: to elaborate my PoV:

fountain changes randomly. PS changes to a random stage, on a timer.

fountain gives little notice (apparently water changes before platforms come up, i think this is a short term notice. no notice for platforms lowering). PS gives 10 second notice before change and operates on a clock.

fountain's changes effect game play slightly and disrupts play slightly. PS effects the gameplay more-so than fountain but doesn't disrupt play during the change.

fountain's changes only slightly change advantages. PS's changes give slight-moderate advantages, but give all characters a place where they have an advantage.

They are about equal as far as imbalance, but from a competitive standpoint isn't it better to give advantages in a semi-random fashion instead of a completely random one?

 

[otg]

Wow looks like I need to go "re-evaluate my gameplay and understanding of the metagame." Will do.

LOLLL, my bad nick I didn't realize it was you who said that. I wasn't trying to get at you. DK64 is still mad broke though.

 

[wool]

Sorry to bump this lol but I was just wondering:
If we move both PS and FoD to the counterpick part, would the system still work?
I am just wondering, not saying that we should/shouldn't.
I don't think I understand stage striking also. If someone could link me to a thread that explains it that would be awesome.

 

[ArcNatural]

Stage striking is simply say you have 5 neutral stages. Each player strikes a stage alternatively until there is one stage left. That's the stage the first match will be played on.

Having an even set of stages makes it so one person wouldn't have the same amount of stage strikes as the other. Which is why removing both would not work.

An easy way to think of it in terms of PS or FoD. 3 of the 5 transformations would be banned if they were stand alone stages, nothing like that exists on FoD.

 

[XIF]

fountain's changes effect game play slightly and disrupts play slightly. PS effects the gameplay more-so than fountain but doesn't disrupt play during the change.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

ahem.

 

[wool]

Stage striking is simply say you have 5 neutral stages. Each player strikes a stage alternatively until there is one stage left. That's the stage the first match will be played on.

Having an even set of stages makes it so one person wouldn't have the same amount of stage strikes as the other. Which is why removing both would not work.

An easy way to think of it in terms of PS or FoD. 3 of the 5 transformations would be banned if they were stand alone stages, nothing like that exists on FoD.

Thanks a lot.

EDIT: like YS where the cloud can be predicted based on the time, can the platform changes be predicted on FoD? Or can you just tell by the water? I just hate how sometimes when I edgeguard a platform disrupts me and so I miss. But if there is a timing then that shouldn't be an excuse (and to be perfectly honest i never knew about the water thing haha...)

 

[Samochan]

Shouldn't the stages be struck in 1221 order? >_> Least that's what we did on Smack.

 

[wool]

yeah. 1212 is less advantageous for 1.

 

[pockyD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22GY6Y8x1_k

 

[Zephynazo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Han_Cj4T5t0

Nice

Help's the people who are a bit confused about stage striking.

 

[pockyD]

there was a mistake, so i deleted the old video

 

[Samochan]

Lol it's still linking me to the old video from that link, even if the new link is there. Wtf. >_>

Anyways, the stage striking order should definitely be 1221. Also, there's not much need in going to the stage selection list, cause you can just strike stages from the stage selection screen with the thumbnails and continue from there. Saves time too.

 

[pockyD]

the stage selection list makes it easier to remember what stages have been struck; might matter a little bit less for 5 stages (for the prepared players anyway - if you are thinking about it on the spot, there's a good chance you'll forget), but it definitely helps if you scale up to a 7-stage set, etc.

 

[VGmasta]

I approve of this stage list, and if this is the direction the MBR is headed, I'm excited to see what they do next. Also, whoever says that PS isn't broken for Spacies is ****ing ********, I'm sorry. The only change I would like to see if to move FoD to stage cps too. Let's be real, there are NOT that many good neutral levels, I don't see the problem in only having 4.

On a side note, DK64 is one of the campiest stages in the game, so anyone who says that should be on neutral needs to reevaluate somethings about there gameplay and how they view the metagame.

Agreed, only the characters that jump really high and quick (Sheik) or the ones that float a lot (Peach or Jiggs) like to play on Kongo Jungle. And banning Mute City takes away the free wins for characters like Jigglypuff and Marth. I mean know the objective of counterpicking is to get a stage that puts your character at a more advantageous situation. But levels like Mute City just take that objective to far.

The problem with 4 is it doesn't work with stage striking. You need 5.

If that's what is, keep Fountain of Dreams (FoD) i guess. Although I liked Poke Stadium (PS) vs. certain characters and probably better overall. FoD does screw up platform games without warning. Poke Stadium at least warns you about stage transformations. Now that I typed this, I think FoD should be switched to PS in neutrals and FoD should be counterpick.

 

[wool]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22GY6Y8x1_k

Thanks pockyD lol.
Wait am I right in saying that ports matter because when you do a move with the same priority at the same exact time, the person on the LOWER port wins (1 beats out 4, etc)?

 

[derfleurer]

No, some people just have preference vs where they sit and where their port is. Some people also like to coordinate shield colors like weirdos. =p

 

[Zephynazo]

If that's what is, keep Fountain of Dreams (FoD) i guess. Although I liked Poke Stadium (PS) vs. certain characters and probably better overall. FoD does screw up platform games without warning. Poke Stadium at least warns you about stage transformations. Now that I typed this, I think FoD should be switched to PS in neutrals and FoD should be counterpick.

It should not, FoD is more neutral than PS, due to the transformations, which help some characters more than other.

Check this video out, last stock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPzvNyUbLqY

That's actually not very fair (even tho i liked that Ken won )

 

[Samochan]

And let's not forget people can randomly fall through PS stage as well. =)