Pogeymafia: Red and Green - OVER! Who lived happily ever after in Kanto?

[Jim Morrison]

So close !

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm Snorlax....
30 Speed...
and can yawn....for a next night roleblock......

Get at me....

Who did you block and why?

 

[Handorin]

Oh sorry....
It's area specific.... so if someone comes near me.....and I yawn....they will be roleblocked....the next night....
To my knowledge.....no one was blocked....but I don't know if I would be....notified anyways....

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm Onix - speed is 115 and my ability is "sturdy". It grants me immunity against actions that prevent me from checking out locations for items. I assume trapping and roleblocking are night actions that might fall under that category but I haven't been affected by either so I can't tell if I ever successfully "used" my ability.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is getting slow...

Jungle, if you're town please post something to avoid a modkill.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

...

 

[Handorin]

I haven't seen....Jungle in awhile......I talked to Xiivi....and he hasn't had luck either.....
His finals should....be done.......

It kinda sucks....cause we can't really continue....without him....

 

[Xiivi]

Day 6 Ends & Game Over!

Junglefever does not respond to his prods or acknowledge his presence in Kanto; despite acknowledging his own presence elsewhere...such as the DBZ universe. Due to lack of attention of this game & the fact he had been prodded multiple times before, lighting strikes Junglefever; killing him dead forever.

Junglefever wild pokemon trapper Dragonite is modkilled.

"****, guess you're Mewtwo then; huh?"

"Yep."

Handorin wild pokemon roleblocker Snorlax is endgamed.

"And now I'm all alone with you."

Gheb_01 independent pokemon serial killer Mewtwo survives and wins!

"Let's run away together!"

Gheb_01 runs off forever with his Arcanine lover and lives happily ever after.

 

[Nicholas1024]

lol@ Arcanine. Xivii is win. :D

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Gzzzz Gheb.

I'm slightly disgusted that mods have gotten to the point where we're modkilling people in endgame. I don't care how inactive your players are, but short of them just outright refusing to play, modkilling people like that just ruins games. Like seriously, who wants to see **** like this?

Inactivity is a problem and I won't try to justify it (I mean ****, I was inactive as **** in this game and that's why I got modkilled, I'm not innocent here) but like I seriously think people need to chill the **** out about these inactivity rules. We're a community here that likes playing mafia together, not some hardcore tournament mafia website that has strict schedules and needs to have games finishing at a precise rate.

Recognize the tendencies of the community here people. We play at a slower pace here than most other sites. ****ing accept it. If you want fast paced games go play else where. All you're doing by shoving your overbearing inactivity rules down our throats is ripping games apart by the seams. For as much of a problem as modkills are in affecting game balance, they wouldn't BE a problem if the mods would stop MAKING them a problem by setting rules and standards that any reasonable person on this site can recognize are NOT compatible with the general playstyle of our community.

I don't know about you guys, but I'd MUCH prefer a game to take a few extra weeks to finish then to see **** like this, where games are basically just decided by modkills.

 

[Ronike]

While I agree that modkilling in end game is lame, I disagree about other modkills. FF, you know just as well as I do that if there weren't modkills, games would be just like they used to be, silences for days on end with absolutely nothing happening. Maybe time to rework it into something like only bringing in activity modkills if it becomes necessary or something, but its a neccesary beast and you should know it.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Guys, I want to apologize for my inactiveness towards the end of this game. (incoming johns) I had finals last week and then this week i was in LA visiting my GF for our second anniversary. I thought I would have computer access for a little while once a day but this didn't end up being the case, and I haven't been able to reach a computer since Wednesday. I want to apologize to the players for basically ruining endgame, and to the mod for showing lack of commitment in the game itself and for my failure to notify you of my absence.

 

[Xiivi]

Jungle contacted Ronike but not me. Made an effort to post in DBZ mafia but not this game. And did not respond to his prods. M3D also approved of the modkill.

Chaco went inactive/got some prods and then asked for replacement. Jungle replaced and then forgot about the game multiple times and got prodded.

----

Let me make something clear to you Frozen:
Tom ran this game on behalf of M3D.
He then proceeded to disappear and abandon the game.
M3D said he didn't have the time to run this game; which was why Tom ran this for him.
This game would have most likely died if I did not take over.
This site absolutely does not play slower than other sites. MafiaScum has 3 week deadlines; and the majority of games here used 2 weeks with relative to no problems and then switched over to 10 days with relative to no problems.
The inactivity problems are recurring and typically come from the same players time and time again; if you want me to single out people, I will (even though I'd really rather not). The majority of players are very capable of posting regularly & declaring V/LA when needed. McFox can disappear for a week; but he declares his V/LA promptly and leaves the game in a situation that's reasonable rather than just disappearing at a whim like others do.

I don't care about ideals about not killing players in LYLO. I will gladly do it when the player has shown no interest in being active/responsibility in the game.

----

I've had to take games over for people and I've had to IM/PM people about replacing into games left and right. One thing I noticed is that there is a specific group of players that always need to be replaced as they go inactive at some point in the game. When someone else actually has to replace out for a good reason, the replacement pool is already spread thin.

Mayling requested replacement in Twilight Mafia and I couldn't find one. But Mayling freaking stuck it out and continued playing even though I didn't get a replacement for her until an entire game Day later. That's responsibility.

There are so many people who don't have a problem with inactivity that I see no reason to cut people who are inactive every time they play slack. The current sign-up system is based entirely on players responsibly signing up for games they are able to handle. They know the commitment they are signing up for and plenty of them impress me with how well they know their limit and their ability to maintain activity in their game.

I absolutely do not care about your personal vendetta against 'mods making things a problem', because I have a personal vendetta against people ruining the games for others by not playing at even the bare minimum set in the rules.

 

[Handorin]

I could have waited. =/
I think I might have been able to pull off a town win, but this is all in hindsight.
Good game guys.

P.S. My restriction was fake.

EDIT: I also figured Chibo was lying about his claim since he didn't auto claim pokemon. I didn't really think of this till the night he died, but it didn't matter that morning... ah well.

 

[Vult Redux]

I'm running a game on MS.net where I've had ten replacements and a modkill due to inactivity with another coming very soon if I don't find a replacement.

Dear lord you people have no idea how good you have it. This place seems [with this game being an exception, I guess] very, VERY good with activity.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

I told you guys Chibo and MK were scum. >:

 

[Deleted member]

I'm running a game on MS.net where I've had ten replacements and a modkill due to inactivity with another coming very soon if I don't find a replacement.

Dear lord you people have no idea how good you have it. This place seems [with this game being an exception, I guess] very, VERY good with activity.

This. I can count how many people have replaced in these games and they haven't even ended yet (Games I've played there):

Newbie Mafia 934 (Day 2): Three replacements
Mini 955 (Day 2): Five replacements (One of them being me)
Mini 958 (Day 1): Two replacements

Now in contrast to this site:
Smash Bros. Mafia (Finished): Two replacements
Newbie Mafia 5 (Finished): Three replacements
The Muppet Mafia (Day 4): One replacement
Tree Stump Mafia (Day 1): Two replacements
Dragonball Z Mafia (Day 1): None

I know it sounds like Smash Boards gets a lot of replacements as well, but compare it to Mafiascum and it's not nearly as bad. This is the main reason why I have more interest in Mafia games here then in Mafiascum. Games are a lot more fun, I'm a lot more commited to them, and I put more effort toward them.

 

[M.K]

Iiiiii poisoned Ronike with the same TM that Chibo got.

>_> Stupid Celadon store with it's never-ending supply of goods.

I knew Gheb's role claim was FAKE AS HELLLLLLL. Onix with 115 speed? HAH. Funneh.
But I knew he was Mewtwo, and that he was gonna win. :D GJ!

 

[Handorin]

Iiiiii poisoned Ronike with the same TM that Chibo got.

>_> Stupid Celadon store with it's never-ending supply of goods.

I knew Gheb's role claim was FAKE AS HELLLLLLL. Onix with 115 speed? HAH. Funneh.
But I knew he was Mewtwo, and that he was gonna win. :D GJ!

It was only a technicality.

 

[Ronike]

Iiiiii poisoned Ronike with the same TM that Chibo got.

Why?

And anyone who says "I told you so" post-game gets to has all lost respect from me. No you didn't know, you thought and/or suspected, and as such should not be saying "Dudez, if you listened to me we would have won. Get over yourselves. Also don't like I knew its, but thats about 100 times better, so whatevs.

Alright then, I hear you xiivi, I didn't know his activity was that bad.

Roles + training would be swell. BTW, I was Pikachu, I couldn't evolve on my own, which made me think I got really powerful evolved, plus I was pikachu, so I lied early game saying I was some fire pokemon. My ability was static, and any poke that targetted me at night was vote blocked, but I lied a bit to keep recruiters off my back.

 

[M.K]

I had your Thunderstone to evolve if I had recruited you, but I traded it for a Toxic TM. :O
Oh, and I killed you because I knew you'd be threatening late game. You are a good player, you scared me.

 

[CT Chia]

Fun game

Whats the arcanine thing?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Let me make something clear to you Frozen:
Tom ran this game on behalf of M3D.
He then proceeded to disappear and abandon the game.
M3D said he didn't have the time to run this game; which was why Tom ran this for him.
This game would have most likely died if I did not take over.

Thanks for the sob story. Let me tell you how much I care. I don't. At all. If you didn't want to mod the game then you shouldn't have. Don't use this bullcrock "omg I'm such a hero for even letting this happen!" AtE to try and take the moral high ground.

This site absolutely does not play slower than other sites.

Great, then why do we have such restrictive activity rules? If we're already so fast I don't understand why we would be so concerned with speed and activity when comparatively we're golden as it is. You say we made adjustments without any problems but I look at this game and say it's the crowing jewel of the problem.

I don't care about ideals about not killing players in LYLO. I will gladly do it when the player has shown no interest in being active/responsibility in the game.

Ideals? How about fundamental tenets of not ****ing ruining the game? Not modkilling people in LYLO isn't some sort of lofty ideal that you're clearly trying to make it out to be, its common sense. Why would you take all the work that everyone has put into the game, just to let it be ultimately be decided by something the rest of the players have no control over? The fact that you say you'd gladly do it is slightly disturbing. If jungle was active elsewhere and simply wasn't posting here, the better route is to say to him "hey, your game is in LYLO, go wrap it up dip****" or whatever and just prod the guy. You don't just up and say "oh well he's not making an effort, modkill it is".

There are so many people who don't have a problem with inactivity that I see no reason to cut people who are inactive every time they play slack. The current sign-up system is based entirely on players responsibly signing up for games they are able to handle. They know the commitment they are signing up for and plenty of them impress me with how well they know their limit and their ability to maintain activity in their game.

It's not about cutting anyone slack, nor is it about making value judgments about who's the better person for being active or knowing their limits. It's about maintaining the integrity of the game of mafia and letting them resolve properly. If you're gonna modkill people in LYLO and ruin the game just to make a value statement about how much you hate inactives or value activity over all else then **** you, I don't want you modding because you're putting your personal expectations of players ABOVE the integrity of the game in importance, which is an immature and irresponsible mentality to have as a mod.

I absolutely do not care about your personal vendetta against 'mods making things a problem', because I have a personal vendetta against people ruining the games for others by not playing at even the bare minimum set in the rules.

THE BARE MINIMUM SET IN THE RULES THAT YOU AS THE MOD CREATED BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL EXPECTATIONS. You make it sound like the people you're indicting aren't performing to some universal standard. That is NOT the case. The bare minimum rules are unnecessarily strict, and that's the whole point of my criticism. It's not a personal vendetta, it's me standing up for the principles of the game of mafia because they're being **** on by stupid rules and restrictions we don't need.

Just because things ARE the way they are doesn't mean they OUGHT to be by virtue of being the status quo.

Also agreed with Meta Kirby about the Onix claim, lol speed at 115 was bulllllllllll****.

I assume the arcanine thing was a play on Gheb's signature arcanine icon he puts in like all of his posts.

 

[CT Chia]

lol I had the volt orb for ronike if recruited him

...

which i traded for the toxic tm lol

same deal as MK

 

[M.K]

Dang Chibo XDDDD.
I lied about that Team Rocket thing. I just tried to catch Guus N3, failed, and assumed Red caught him.

 

[Omis]

Did you kill me Gheb because I personally annoy you? It won't bother me if you say the truth and say yes.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No I just randomly killed somebody with few connections.

MK, Onix has 115 base speed.

The arcanine thing was a joke although a very good one

 

[Nicholas1024]

Did you kill me Gheb because I personally annoy you? It won't bother me if you say the truth and say yes.

Nah, he did it as a personal favor to me. j/k

@Frozenflame
Oftentimes a game is decided by something stupid that the rest of the town have no control over. Just see TUSM, Newbie mafia 1.

 

[Ronike]

Lol Gheb, no he don't. Serebii Pokedex Page

70 base speed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Woah how lame of Tom to give me wrong data. My bad for not double checking though.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Dah, I thought Gheb was the most town. Go me.
Gheb, why kill someone who was going to die of poison anyway? Way to overkill D:

 

[SummonerAU]

I can't believe I send a message to Gheb, Xiivi tells me he buys my Destiny Bond claim and then I get the kill randomly redirected onto me by Roar. **** that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Xonar, you deserved it

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I don't really care, but you could've just won that night x.x
OH WELL

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I didn't know the actual numbers of each mafia faction. I actually thought that frozens modkill screwed me already.

 

[Kirby King]

THE BARE MINIMUM SET IN THE RULES THAT YOU AS THE MOD CREATED BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL EXPECTATIONS. You make it sound like the people you're indicting aren't performing to some universal standard. That is NOT the case. The bare minimum rules are unnecessarily strict, and that's the whole point of my criticism. It's not a personal vendetta, it's me standing up for the principles of the game of mafia because they're being **** on by stupid rules and restrictions we don't need.

You have it backwards. It is not the job of the moderator to adjust the rules to how his players want to play his game. It is the job of the players to follow the rules that the moderator has established and that they agreed to play by when they confirmed their roles.

If you don't like a game's rules, don't sign up. Or /out in the confirmation stage if that's the first time you see them (but if the status quo activity rule surprised you, you should probably have asked in advance about it). If you're right about what kind of activity rules we should have, games with activity rules you don't like won't be able to run.

In the meantime, stop telling people they shouldn't use rules you don't like when people keep agreeing to play by them and then don't.


Modkilling for inactivity in lylo is not ideal. I'm wondering if the best solution to that is let players request that an inactivity modkill be postponed, at any point in the game--after all, in theory the reason for inactivity modkills is because other players are being deprived of information they need to make a decision about someone's guilt or innocence, and if they're convinced that person is innocent anyway (rightly or wrongly) modkilling them doesn't make sense. (And any solution that tells players it's lylo or only applies to certain factions is broken.)

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

You have it backwards. It is not the job of the moderator to adjust the rules to how his players want to play his game. It is the job of the players to follow the rules that the moderator has established and that they agreed to play by when they confirmed their roles.

If you don't like a game's rules, don't sign up. Or /out in the confirmation stage if that's the first time you see them (but if the status quo activity rule surprised you, you should probably have asked in advance about it). If you're right about what kind of activity rules we should have, games with activity rules you don't like won't be able to run.

In the meantime, stop telling people they shouldn't use rules you don't like when people keep agreeing to play by them and then don't.

Actually, no I don't. IT IS the job of the moderator to adjust his or her rules to be the most amenable to the community that he is creating the game for. Obviously that doesn't mean he lets everyone playing just build the entire ruleset, but it doesn't mean that the mod should just impose an arbitrary ruleset based on his or her own personal standards and expect that everyone who wants to play be ok with them.

Sure the moderator CAN do that, but that doesn't mean they OUGHT to.

I literally lol'd at the "don't sign up if you don't like it" comment. First and foremost, I HAVEN'T been signing up nearly as often as I used to BECAUSE of these activity rules. I cannot play in as many games as I used to because of the fact that the new rules mods are using are too restrictive and I'd have no chance of surviving if I tried to play in more than one game. Guess how much change that has wrought? Absolutely none. That's why this is necessary. I'm addressing an issue that a distinct minority has with the current rules, and I'm suggesting a solution that would make our games more suitable to that minority's needs without significantly worsening the playing experience for the majority. As has been said, games already move at a comparatively rapid pace here, so loosening up on activity rules will only serve to make games easier to play for the minority that is struggling with the rules as they are and will prevent games from being ruined by modkills. Two DISTINCT benefits for little to no loss.

I wasn't surprised by the rules, but what choice do I have with regard to them even if I was? Since these types of activity rules seem to be the new standard I have no choice, and I'm not just going to quit mafia here over it when it won't exact the change I desire, nor would I prefer playing anywhere else to here. Your claim that "if you're so right, then the games with these rules won't run" is just laughably naive . If it wasn't clear enough to you already, I'm obviously of a minority here. Games can and will continue to run even if I were to quit entirely. You assume that any change worth making needs to be a majority opinion which is such a bad assumption to make and a logical fallacy on so many levels that I'm insulted by it.

Never once did I say the majority of people here agreed with me. Telling me to stop complaining about something when "people sign up for games anyway" is arguing for EXACTLY WHAT I SAID WAS A LOGICAL FALLACY IN MY LAST POST. You're arguing for the status quo by virtue of it simply being the status quo. I'm proposing a change here that will make the ruleset more amenable to a minority without significantly (if at all) detracting from the majority experience. Therefore, why does the comfort of the majority have ANY BEARING WHATSOEVER on the validity of my criticism?

Modkilling for inactivity in lylo is not ideal. I'm wondering if the best solution to that is let players request that an inactivity modkill be postponed, at any point in the game--after all, in theory the reason for inactivity modkills is because other players are being deprived of information they need to make a decision about someone's guilt or innocence, and if they're convinced that person is innocent anyway (rightly or wrongly) modkilling them doesn't make sense. (And any solution that tells players it's lylo or only applies to certain factions is broken.)

I think this is moving in the right direction but if this type of option is going to be allowed in a game, it can't be dependent on majority approval. I'd say if 50% - 1 of the players in the game request it, then it gets postponed indefinitely until people stop desiring it to be postponed. I say this because if it's based on a majority, then minority factions that might benefit from the modkill could be unfairly pressured to postpone it and thus have their allignment be revealed, whatever that may be. Like for example, in this game, have that kind of a vote could have easily outed Gheb as mewtwo since 2 votes would be needed to postpone JFs modkill, and obviously JF wasn't around to vote. That means Gheb would have to vote to postpone that kill which is distinctly against his best play. Obviously situations are more complicated than that but I hope the point makes sense. I'd even be fine with fewer than 50% - 1 being required to post pone it.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I haven't really read any of this debate, but I think rules should be followed. If you dislike the ruleset, standardize a new one with better rules by hosting and getting positive feedback.

 

[M3D]

A modkill at LyLo is really unfortunate, but a moderator who sets rules needs to stick by them. Would it be fair to Gheb, who played well all the way through the game, to allow the town to break activity rules and gain some kind of advantage due to a delay? If the delayed game isn't that big of a deal, what other rules should the mod bend for the sake of the town?

Complaining about this is like complaining that you got killed when you went AFK in the middle of a Halo match online. The game moves. The other players, the ones who agreed with you to play by a certain set of rules, are not required to stop playing within those rules or wait around for you. Simple solution: Junglefever announces he is going V/LA to the mod or in the thread or in the V/LA thread AT ALL and the mod gives the players the chance to decide if they'd like to wait around for him. Instead, he just disappeared. He broke the rules. He got punished for it. Unfortunately that means the town got punished for it together, but that's what happens when you play a team-based game.

Without activity rules, games die. Constant replacements and long periods of inactivity ruin games. There is absolutely no reason why these activity rules are a problem, especially since you AGREE to play by them when you join up. There are no surprises here.

That said...

Congreats @Gheb. You really played a great game. Despite the modkill at the end, I feel as though Mewtwo earned his victory. You largely stayed off people's radar in the early game and put the pressure squarely on BOTH trainers in the late game. Good posts. Good analysis. Good strategy overall.

Funny when I designed this game, Tom thought for sure that Town had no chance of winning. He felt like with the recruiting + killing factions, there was too much anti-town in the game for the wild pokemon to have a shot. And yet, they basically got second place and could have won the game if a few of the players had stuck by the rules instead of getting themselves modkilled.

I also find it interesting that Gheb got some early heat, like in Day 1. If he had been lynched early, this game would have looked a lot different and the trainers would have had a much better shot of building majorities before the game was over. I was really shocked that, despite all the pressure on both Chibo and MK during the day phases, it took until the second-to-last Day/Last night phases to eliminate them. Perhaps that's my fault for not putting many informational roles in the game. I guess I can always tweak the next one.

Funnily enough, the best possible way for the town to win this game would have been a Day 1 Mass-claim. Since on Day 1, no one was recruited yet and the town knew that, you could have forced everyone to claim their roles, powers and night actions all the way through the game. That would have given you maximum chances to catch liars. I'm surprised no one thought of it, although perhaps the fear of getting called a role-fisher would have kept anyone from bringing it up.

I am leaving in a couple hours on a business trip, but I'll bring the spreadsheet for the game with me and reveal night actions, roles, etc, tomorrow when I've got some free time.

Major, major thanks @Xivii for running the game. I definitely had no time for modding duties, but it was fun to see my design lived out.

Couple of questions for you all:

- What did you think of the multi-faction design? Pros? Cons? Do you feel like all sides had a good chance to win?
- How did you feel about the exploration parts of this game? I feel like some of the items made a difference in the end-game, but there wasn't a lot of chaos due to them. Agree? Disagree? Would you like to see more designs with exploration and items included?
- If/when I design PokeMafia Gold and Silver... what would you like to see included?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

M3D, I love your games. Ryker isn't here atm, but we had a lengthy conversation about our mancrush on you <3

- What did you think of the multi-faction design? Pros? Cons? Do you feel like all sides had a good chance to win?

If it was true that there is limited recruiting, I agree to it. I think a shrink (I think that's the anti recruiter?) could be nice to have in the set-up, but oh well.

- How did you feel about the exploration parts of this game? I feel like some of the items made a difference in the end-game, but there wasn't a lot of chaos due to them. Agree? Disagree? Would you like to see more designs with exploration and items included?

Exploring was fun and stuff, but I honestly think that getting standard items in standard locations is a bit too much (2 poisons in the mall? makes it way to easy for the trainer to poison enemies), and having a killing item at all is a bit too much if you ask me. I like the 'Mewtwo's last known loc is...' or the thing that Summoner got at the pokemon tower. Killing items like poison could be fine if there was a higher chance to find an antidote etc. But overall a mechanic that made me really like this game.

- If/when I design PokeMafia Gold and Silver... what would you like to see included?

Unlynchable-bulletproof-unroleblockable-multishot-day/night-PM based-serial killer

Btw, do you have the info on which days you can find what where in that spreadsheet?