Pogeymafia: Red and Green - OVER! Who lived happily ever after in Kanto?

[Kirby King]

@frozen: I think pretty much your entire argument is addressed by me saying "I prefer how games run with the stricter activity rules," which I think is simply going to come down to a matter of personal taste no matter how many capital letters you use. I know my own experience as a mod has been that stricter activity rules lead to (here's a shock) better activity and, IMO, a higher quality game. As a player I can't stand how inactive players get with 72 hour activity rules and dislike how long games with 2-week deadlines tend to go. In my mind, those are significant differences, and you can't just fix things by saying "well in mylo we'll just bend the rules a little for town's sake".

So when I run a game I'm going to use the rules I think will create the highest quality game, even if they won't appeal to every player. I get really annoyed when people agree to my rules and then refuse to play by them--if you don't like my rules so much, don't sign up for the game and take the slot of someone who might be willing to play by the rules. And if I can't fill my game with the ruleset I have, I'll either have to give up on hosting it or change the rules to attract more players. That's still my decision to make as the game moderator, not yours to make as a player who feels entitled to play whatever game he wants.

You admit you're in the minority (which, along with "looser activity rules don't hurt games," seem to contradict "We play at a slower pace here than most other sites. ****ing accept it. If you want fast paced games go play else where"--hey, that might be advice worth taking), and as long as we disagree about whether relaxing activity rules actually hurts a game, I don't think you have any basis to tell hosts that their rules need to cater to the lowest common denominator. If people within this community want to play at a faster pace they can sign up for games that enforce a faster pace. If that can't be sustained then it won't be as long as people don't agree to rules they don't want to follow. But if it turns out people do want to play that way and no one else wants to run a game the way you want to play... there's always MS.

Not going to pollute this thread with any more of this discussion. If you want to bring it to the social thread have at it.

 

[M.K]

Soooo....

Well, i'm asking in all the games I've played recently, but can you guys critique my performance? I know it's dumb, but I just wanna be able to grow as a player. :D

 

[Deleted member]

@Xiivi/Tom: You should have looked for a replacement for Junglefever. The game would have continued and we would have received more activity out of it. Plus, we may have gotten a epic ending for the game.

@M3D: Glad to see your game go well. Now for your questions:

- What did you think of the multi-faction design? Pros? Cons? Do you feel like all sides had a good chance to win?

Sounds like a great idea. Even thought I have yet to experience a game with multiple factions, this really spiked up my interest.

However, I didn't think the independents had a good chance to win. They are generally consider the hardest role to win. But look at the turn out and it proves that it's not impossible.

However, I never participated in your game, so I can't tell the pros or cons of it aside from what was mentioned.

- If/when I design PokeMafia Gold and Silver... what would you like to see included?

- Twenty players in the game.

- We should have five factions. One is the Male Trainer, one is the Female Trainer, one is the Rival Trainer, one belongs to Team Rocket, one belongs to the three Legendary Gold & Sliver Pokémon (Lugia, Ho-Ho, Celibi), and one that consist of nine Wild Pokémon's that can evolve.

- Male, Female, and Wild Pokémon's wins under Townie conditions (They win together). Team Rocket and the Legendary Pokémon's are separate Mafia factions. They don't win together, but they do follow the same circumstances to win. Rival Trainer follows under Independent Faction, they win when everyone aside from him and his Pokémon's have been eliminated.

- Announce when a entire faction has been wiped-out.

- Once a Trainer dies, a Pokémon becomes a Wild Pokémon again and can be recruited again.

- If a Trainer hammers another Trainer, they gather all it's Pokémon's, with the exception of if they have over six Pokémon's. Then they must drop the amount of Pokémon's needed into the wild, but they cannot choose Pokémon's they originally had before the hammer.

- Male Trainer, Female Trainer, Rival Trainer and Team Rocket starts out with one Pokémon and can have up to six.

- Once a Wild Pokémon has been captured (You cannot capture a Legendary Pokémon), they will get to know their Trainer and other Pokémon's captured by them.

So let's say that I'm a Wild Pokémon. I get captured by Meta-Kirby, who is a Pokémon Trainer. He has also captured Frozenflame, who was captured by a Pokémon Trainer. That means that I know that me, Frozenflame, and Meta-Kirby are under the same faction. Same with other factions, unless you're a Wild Pokémon, where in this case, you have no idea who are your allies.

- Pokémon's can kill each other, but not Trainers.

- Two week Day phases, twenty-four hour Twilight Phases, and seventy-two hours of Night Phases.

- Pikachu as a Wild Pokémon.

If PokeMafia Gold & Sliver does come around, expect me to be in it. These are just suggestions, what do you think of it?

Mod: Are we allow to edit our post now the game is over?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

A modkill at LyLo is really unfortunate, but a moderator who sets rules needs to stick by them. Would it be fair to Gheb, who played well all the way through the game, to allow the town to break activity rules and gain some kind of advantage due to a delay? If the delayed game isn't that big of a deal, what other rules should the mod bend for the sake of the town?

Some kind of advantage due to a delay? lolwut? Oh if by "advantage to the town" you mean, "not giving the SK a free pass to the win in the hardest part of the game for anti-town" then sure. It's not about bending rules to favour the town, but nice try trying to spin it that way. It's about letting a player who has been playing great throughout the whole game, CONTINUE TO DO SO AND PROVE HE DESERVES THE WIN BY ACTUALLY EARNING IT. I played great throughout all of Fastfood mafia as an SK, and made it to Lylo. No modkills or anything of the sort. I got killed in lylo but that was ok, because I actually HAD TO PLAY THROUGH LYLO. If someone had just gotten modkilled in Lylo I would have been PISSED even if I won, because I literally was just given a free pass through the toughest part in the game.

Complaining about this is like complaining that you got killed when you went AFK in the middle of a Halo match online. The game moves. The other players, the ones who agreed with you to play by a certain set of rules, are not required to stop playing within those rules or wait around for you. Simple solution: Junglefever announces he is going V/LA to the mod or in the thread or in the V/LA thread AT ALL and the mod gives the players the chance to decide if they'd like to wait around for him. Instead, he just disappeared. He broke the rules. He got punished for it. Unfortunately that means the town got punished for it together, but that's what happens when you play a team-based game.

No, it's not like Halo and going AFK at all. When you sit down and play Halo, you set specific time aside to be playing it. If you go AFK during that match you absolutely know that you're relinquishing control of your character and you will likely get killed and hurt your team. When you play mafia, there is no set block of time that you MUST be active for. You go AFK from mafia games all the time, the problem here was how long of an "AFK" the mod will tolerate. Mafia and Halo are so fundamentally different that I can't believe you would even attempt to draw that comparison. You CANNOT play Halo effectively by going AFK for ANY amount of time. You most certainly can go AFK in mafia and still play it effectively. Terrible comparison.

I'm not saying that JF didn't break the rules. He did. I'm not saying that Gheb didn't deserve to win at all. He certainly played great. What I am saying though, is that simply killing JF in lylo using the logic "the rules are the rules are the rules are the rules are the rules" is absolutely terrible modding and blatant disregard for the integrity of the game which takes more away from the proper resolution of the game then simply waiting awhile ever would. In this case, the town's chances of winning were undercut and the SK was simply handed a victory without having to do anything to earn it in the hardest part of the game. Previous efforts aside, that's still a HUGE detriment from the quality of the game.

I know how team games work, and I know that if one person fails on a team, then the whole team is going to be worse off for it. However, that doesn't justify modkilling JF and ending the game. The fact that he was so inactive hurt his team already! It makes him look VERY scummy, and basically just increases the difficulty of trusting him or anything he had to say. Being inactive DOES NOT HELP YOUR STANDING IN A GAME AT ALL. That in and of itself (especially in lylo) is punishment enough! I don't know where you get off saying modkilling in lylo and literally handing games to people on a silver platter by letting them bypass the hardest part of the game is a justified way to impose your personal standards and expectations of how teams should be punished for the failures of others.

Without activity rules, games die. Constant replacements and long periods of inactivity ruin games. There is absolutely no reason why these activity rules are a problem, especially since you AGREE to play by them when you join up. There are no surprises here.

When did I ever say we shouldn't have activity rules. Blatant strawman here. And if you had actually read anything I said in my previous post, you'd know why saying "the rules aren't a problem because you know what they are when you sign up" is complete and utter bullcrock. Please stop arguing for status quo as a priori good for being the status quo.

As far as game mechanics go:

Really liked the exploration and such. Always nice to have more fun things to do at night. I'm curious as to how the actual capturing mechanics worked with the trainers though. Fully explaining how that worked would be great.

As far as balance goes, I think having all the recruited pokes die when the trainer died made it balanced. If the recruited pokes had lived on, I think it may have been too pro-recruiter, but from what I saw here, it was definitely pretty fair, esp. considering how many town PRs the wild's could've gotten.

 

[Deleted member]

@Frozenflame: Keep that discussion up and you might be blacklisted from M3D's/Tom's/Xiivi's future games. Just saying.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Hando was the best townie. He was the only one who pinned me as scum early and was also right about MK.

 

[Handorin]

I think Hando was the best townie. He was the only one who pinned me as scum early and was also right about MK.

I hate to add "I told you so attitude", but I felt I would have pinned Chibo if he didn't die.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I think it was a fun game, too bad Chibo and me got killed, we had a legit shot if neither of us died. We could've pulled something really cool :D
Well played Gheb, I imagined you being Mewtwo the moment Chibo got killed.

 

[Kirby King]

The fact that he was so inactive hurt his team already! It makes him look VERY scummy, and basically just increases the difficulty of trusting him or anything he had to say. Being inactive DOES NOT HELP YOUR STANDING IN A GAME AT ALL. That in and of itself (especially in lylo) is punishment enough!

Punishment for whom, though? You say all this knowing JF was town. If he was scum should he have been allowed to live indefinitely? If you say yes then you've basically argued against having any sort of inactivity rule (even if it's just lylo-only, players aren't necessarily supposed to know it's lylo). If you say no then you've just created a way for town to deduce someone's alignment definitively in lylo.

@SSBF: that's a pretty unnecessary and, since you are not one of M3D/Tom/Xiivi, baseless comment.

 

[Clownbot]

I didn't read through this whole game but I caught some of it and the special mechanics looked really interesting. Would definitely consider signing up if there was another, G/S/C-based one.

 

[M3D]

I'm not going to blacklist someone for having a different, if wrong, opinion. I'm not, however, going to argue anymore about the benefits of tight activity rules nor about why a mod should always adhere strictly to the rules and be consistent, no matter what the stage of the game.

Capture mechanics were simple. Trainers each got three pokeballs they could use to recruit pokemon with. They couldn't recruit another trainer (obviously), another recruited pokemon or Mewtwo. They didn't need to be in the same place as the pokemon, since that was highly unlikely to occur. If both of them threw the ball at the same pokemon during a night, the tie was resolved by turns. Even nights Red went first. Odd nights Green went first. Although, there were speed-based effects in the game that could change those... Blastoise had one of those powers. Choice Scarf, which Gheb ended up with, was another. If a trainer got knocked out, his pokemon went with him.

Actually this brings up Chibo's move with the Life Orb/Doublevote event. By using Life Orb, he got a second vote. But each day that he used it, he would get -1 to his lynch limit, which carried over into subsequent days. By using it, he survived the day, but he made himself a target for Mewtwo (even though he claimed it was one-time-use) and put himself at Lynch-total-minus-one for the following day. If he had passed the LO to Guus instead and let him use the power, Guus would have been the one in danger, further improving their chances of surviving to the end-game. In fact, they may have been able to force a quick-lynch again on the following day if they both survived the night, which could have lead to victory. It's always important in a masonry of any kind that you shield the most-powerful or important member.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Punishment for whom, though? You say all this knowing JF was town. If he was scum should he have been allowed to live indefinitely? If you say yes then you've basically argued against having any sort of inactivity rule (even if it's just lylo-only, players aren't necessarily supposed to know it's lylo). If you say no then you've just created a way for town to deduce someone's alignment definitively in lylo.

If he was scum, he looks just as bad for being inactive! Thus the propensity for him being lynched goes up, and thus, he hurts his team (which could simply be just himself). I don't understand how knowing JF was town hurts the argument at all. Regardless of alignment, inactivity makes you looks bad, and thus, increases your chances of being lynched, and thus, hurts your team's chances of winning.

How does NOT modkilling people in lylo let them live indefinitely? That makes no sense.

Obviously you wouldn't impose a "no modkill in lylo rule" from the MOD's perspective. When there are 3 people left in the game, it HAS to be lylo from ANY standpoint. If the game were in a more complex situation and the players would have no way of deducing it was lylo, then you obviously would not impose a rule that gives away the status of the game. What I'm saying is in OBJECTIVELY identifiable lylo, such as pokemafia, you shouldn't be modkilling people, end of story.

Other response is in social thread as per request.

I'm not going to blacklist someone for having a different, if wrong, opinion. I'm not, however, going to argue anymore about the benefits of tight activity rules nor about why a mod should always adhere strictly to the rules and be consistent, no matter what the stage of the game.

lol, yeah call me wrong, but then refuse to debate. Really classy.

I'd also like to point out that a mentality of "a mod should always adhere strictly to the rules and be consistent, no matter what the stage of the game" is probably the worst case of "the rules are the rules are the rules are the rules are the rules" mentality I've ever seen. I can't believe you actually believe that. Goes to show how much you actually care about the game's integrity and using a little thing we call discretion. That's ok though if you just want to hide behind a fundamentalist stance and just use "the rules are the rules are the rules are the rules" as an excuse for when they create a problem.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Personally, I'd leave modkills up to a mod's discretion. I wouldn't modkill if that would decide the game, and in general I'd always try to replace first. However, I'm perfectly fine with the activity rules as is. Is it really that hard to post once every couple of days?

 

[Ronike]

I love whoever's modkill idea it was. In fact, barring oposition, I think I might institue that in DBZ.

- What did you think of the multi-faction design? Pros? Cons? Do you feel like all sides had a good chance to win?

Without having seen the roles and everything and basing simply on M2 = SK, I think Scum had a much better chance of winning then the town, it was just dumb luck we almost won. Had either side ended up in endgame with 2 pokes, town prolly would have lost a day earlier.

- How did you feel about the exploration parts of this game? I feel like some of the items made a difference in the end-game, but there wasn't a lot of chaos due to them. Agree? Disagree? Would you like to see more designs with exploration and items included?

I'd rather wait til this is explained to put in an opinion, especially since I didn't really read endgame...

- If/when I design PokeMafia Gold and Silver... what would you like to see included?

I like most of SSBF's ideas actually.

YES!

Everything not listed below. Im lazy, sue me.

NO!!:
20 players. Ick. It doesn't work, Ill explain via aim if you'd like later SSBF.

If a trainer dies, the pokes should die too. It off balances making a town faction. Obviously nullifies Trainer hammer part too.

Trainers start with a poke. No, gives that role too much power.

Killing limit is a no no.

 

[M.K]

I'd love to join another PokeMafia.
This was probably my most....well, probably the game I thought I did my very best in so far.
Feels nice to have control over people. o.o;;

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Couple of questions for you all:

- What did you think of the multi-faction design? Pros? Cons? Do you feel like all sides had a good chance to win? I'm probably going to agree with Tom on this one. The overall design was interesting, but two cult leaders and a serial killer seemed to make town's odds of winning slim.

- How did you feel about the exploration parts of this game? I feel like some of the items made a difference in the end-game, but there wasn't a lot of chaos due to them. Agree? Disagree? Would you like to see more designs with exploration and items included? I agree. I liked your idea of the items. Yes, more locations or whatever and items in the sequel would be awesome! I really enjoyed playing this.

- If/when I design PokeMafia Gold and Silver... what would you like to see included?
I can honestly say that i do not know. I'm probably not the one to ask. xD

replies in red.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I love M3D's set ups, and I'm sorry that i took part in ruining what was looking to be part of a good endgame.

 

[KevinM]

I figured if I stayed in the Diglett cave I could catch the jump on someone and trap them thurr and thus late chibo know.

Then I died.

*shrugs*

 

[Xiivi]

MK! All the arguments and stuff made me forget about your request! Send me a PM or VM later tonight to remind me!