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Planking Info (G&W Added)

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Then...why were you so against my whole 'expiriment with new rules" thing.

Devil's advocate >.<
^It makes just as much sense as LGLs do...
There ya go. I was being sarcastic; it makes about as much sense as LGLs but it's obviously a terrible idea. Basically, if we want to limit MK like that, why not, while we're at it, limit him in a way that helps the people who really have trouble with him, therefore completely getting rid of the whole "Ban MK" issue once and for all?

More brainstorming:
-MKs have to play with their controllers behind their backs
-MK has a stock handicap
-The opponent can punch the MK player in the face 3 times per match.
...etc. I'm being ironic, not the devil's advocate.
@ BPC

lol, that's like halfway a good idea. If only it wasn't so, ew.
Yeah, I know! :laugh:
 

CaliburChamp

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I dont know the frame data but I have hit pit out of planking , MK I have yet to hit them out when they are doing it correctly, G&W planking I have yet to encounter


Also the main point of planking is to time your opponent out when your winning
It's possible to instant edge hog all planking, the timing is extremely tight, because of that, the risk exceeds the reward. Certain moves can prevent planking, Diddy Kong's barrage of peanuts, and Pikachu's thunder jolts. But with Pit and G&W, they can absorb or reflect it back, while MK can't. Part of the reason why I say MK is the 3rd best planker. They also can pressure the opponent while planking, by using arrows, or sausages or Up-air, forcing them to change their position to get a less advantageous angle of attack. MK has no projectile to do this.

DMG trolls me so hard...
 

TLMSheikant

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It's possible to instant edge hog all planking, the timing is extremely tight, because of that, the risk exceeds the reward. Certain moves can prevent planking, Diddy Kong's barrage of peanuts, and Pikachu's thunder jolts. But with Pit and G&W, they can absorb or reflect it back, while MK can't. Part of the reason why I say MK is the 3rd best planker. They also can pressure the opponent while planking, by using arrows, or sausages or Up-air, forcing them to change their position to get a less advantageous angle of attack. MK has no projectile to do this.

DMG trolls me so hard...
Did u even read the OP? DMG proved with frame data that mk's planking cannot be edgehogged in time. Oh wait, thats an mk icon down there, nvm.
 
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It's possible to instant edge hog all planking, the timing is extremely tight, because of that, the risk exceeds the reward. Certain moves can prevent planking, Diddy Kong's barrage of peanuts, and Pikachu's thunder jolts. But with Pit and G&W, they can absorb or reflect it back, while MK can't. Part of the reason why I say MK is the 3rd best planker. They also can pressure the opponent while planking, by using arrows, or sausages or Up-air, forcing them to change their position to get a less advantageous angle of attack. MK has no projectile to do this.

DMG trolls me so hard...
CC, read the thread. I don't think anyone takes you seriously at this point, but still-it's explained, very closely, why MK's planking is A) the best and B) virtually unbeatable. AFAIK, there is no projectile that stops it. The only one that could stop the non-DownB version is PK thunder; if you see them upB'ing DC ledgegrab until the jolt vanishes.
 

DMG

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I am having to type this on WII INTERNET lol, so bare with me.
Caliber Champ, bro... cmon. I posted the "edge snap" data. Not for every character, but I am near certain no character does it faster than mk/pika/characters in the 6 frame window.

When I have a working computer, I'll post G@W'S info. His planking framewise is very weak surprisingly. Even more than I originally suspected to be honest.
 

Overswarm

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Here's some info for you guys. These are raw numbers without any opponent to player interaction, and they are all done within standard human usage of said techniques. I didn't practice planking for 10 hours to make everything frame perfect, in other words.

Planking numbers:
Scrooging + using all jumps + over-b: 56 ledge grabs (8 minutes)
Naturally falling from ledge and regrabbing it: 64 ledge grabs (8 minutes)
Dropping from the ledge, jumping and using 2 uairs twice (4 uair total) and then down+b (the m2k ledge stall): 176 ledge grabs (8 minutes)
Letting go of the ledge and jumping using 2 uairs then grabbing again: 264 ledge grabs
Dropping from the ledge and immediately regrabbing with a jump: 424 ledge grabs

Divide it by 8 for the "per minute" ledge grabs. You are VULNERABLE when doing this against many characters, but it can still be done relatively safely. Not broken, just boring.

The lowest is 7 per minute with "scrooging"; this is going to get an MK hit by many characters.

The "frame perfect" planking is most similar to M2K's planking; that's 22 ledge grabs a minute on average. If we set a ledge grab at 50, it will be impossible for a Metaknight to start camping until it is towards the end of the match anyway; if he does, he'll have to make himself vulnerable in doing so.
 

Flayl

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Ok, new goal for my other thread then.

edit: Please contribute, it's very important for tournaments that will keep MK legal.

"frame perfect" planking is most similar to M2K's planking; that's 22 ledge grabs a minute on average. If we set a ledge grab at 50, it will be impossible for a Metaknight to start camping until it is towards the end of the match anyway; if he does, he'll have to make himself vulnerable in doing so.
The problem with LGL then is that MK can just play a normal campy style (easier against some characters than others, also easier on stages that allow air-camping) and then "perfect" plank the last 2 minutes of the game.
 

Overswarm

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Ok, new goal for my other thread then.

edit: Please contribute, it's very important for tournaments that will keep MK legal.



The problem with LGL then is that MK can just play a normal campy style (easier against some characters than others, also easier on stages that allow air-camping) and then "perfect" plank the last 2 minutes of the game.
This isn't a balance issue so much as a "boredom" issue. Still an issue, but if you have 6 minutes to play vs. MK however you want and can't get the lead at all, MK has at least earned his victory.
 

Clai

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Do we have data for Melee Sheik's and SSB64 Pikachu's planking? Both of those characters had invincible recoveries [Sheik- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8NKO0fo_1I Pikachu- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN-4TwOnBZo] but neither of those games had people that were willing to run out the clock as a playstyle, so planking wasn't an issue. If there was a precedent in those games that prevented people from running out the clock in this fashion, we should follow it and use whatever rules were established before.
 

J4pu

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I'm not so sure about the SSB64 pika one, but it's practical to believe in melee the sheik could be edge-hogged (WD OoS), which would force her to land it on stage where the opponent could punish her because you could instantly ledge-drop in melee > waveland on stage > almost anything before sheik would recover.

MK has 2 Uair hitboxes out during the proposed planking which will cause enough shield lag/stun to prevent the opponent from doing ANYTHING if it hits their shield. Brawl does not have WD'ing, and from the data presented, even if it did, it wouldn't be fast enough.

@OS
it's not so much if you can't ever get the lead so much as it is you need to have the lead at all times post-6minutes
you get a few percent lead on MK and then get out of range and reset to neutral with no intentions of approaching because you know brawl is a defensive game, well what if MK still doesn't want to approach? what if the MK is perfectly content with waiting until 6 minutes in to start playing so that if he ever does get a lead he can go perfect plank the rest of the match away?
So technically you either need to get a substantial lead on MK (preferably stock lead obviously) or... well, that's about it, if you can't get a definite lead on MK while you are the one approaching, good luck never falling behind in the last 2 minutes of the game.

Does this make the game unplayable? No, but it sure as **** makes it even more ridiculous
 

TP

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This isn't a balance issue so much as a "boredom" issue. Still an issue, but if you have 6 minutes to play vs. MK however you want and can't get the lead at all, MK has at least earned his victory.
This directly contradicts what you said in your thread on playing as annoyingly as possible. In it, you said that you enjoyed camping/planking/stalling while you were losing, because it guaranteed that the opponent wouldn't come to you. Then, with only a minute or so left, you would tornado in or do something to get the lead back and then you only need to stall for like 30 seconds to win.

Now you are saying that the flaw in planking/stalling is that you can't do it until you have a lead.

I love your pro ban statistics and graphs and such, but don't bring BS arguments in here just so you can keep winning money with stalling.
 

Overswarm

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This directly contradicts what you said in your thread on playing as annoyingly as possible. In it, you said that you enjoyed camping/planking/stalling while you were losing, because it guaranteed that the opponent wouldn't come to you. Then, with only a minute or so left, you would tornado in or do something to get the lead back and then you only need to stall for like 30 seconds to win.

Now you are saying that the flaw in planking/stalling is that you can't do it until you have a lead.

I love your pro ban statistics and graphs and such, but don't bring BS arguments in here just so you can keep winning money with stalling.
1) Planking isn't stalling; it never has been. It's just really, really good. And boring.

2) I personally enjoy camping; I am a strict minority.

3) I'm good, yo. I don't need to plank to win; I do it when it works because it makes you win more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axjFN7Zuegw&feature=related

4) "Then, with only a minute or so left, you would tornado in or do something to get the lead back and then you only need to stall for like 30 seconds to win." Sounds like I'm taking a pretty big risk, huh? It's risk vs. reward. If I'm against someone I'm gonna have trouble beating or someone that can do a serious amount of damage with one grab or the like, coming in the last few seconds is pretty dumb. You have to play it smart; it's infinitely more likely I'd do something like this to a character like Falco than a character that can actually do something potentially life threatening if I was planking (like Wario) if I make the slightest mistake.

5) You are pretty ballsy to think my mentality on things is self-serving and "just so I can win money". MLG comes in with 60,000 dollars on the table and I'm still rallying to ban the character I main and have mained for as long as is relevant to my placements. You think I need planking to win? I'm pretty sure I'll do okay with another character once I get into the groove, but come on.... if anything you could say I need MK to win, not planking. And I'm trying to get him banned.


6)
The problem with LGL then is that MK can just play a normal campy style (easier against some characters than others, also easier on stages that allow air-camping) and then "perfect" plank the last 2 minutes of the game.
This is what I'm quoting. If I'm not "perfect planking", I'm vulnerable. I can be hit. If it's just hard, boo-hoo, they can go home and give me their money. If I am perfect planking, my ledge grab count is going through the roof.


In other words, I have to be good enough to avoid damage throughout the match anyway to win; camping the last two minutes on the ledge is just a strong strategy, similar to Wario camping to avoid confrontation until he gets a fart.


7) There's only one character that can plank effectively in the entire game: MK

I'm trying to get him banned.

MK goes, LGL doesn't stay. How does this help me in any way?
 

RATED

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wow wth with people saying that MK 's planking can be beaten! even if u hit him , u are offstage against mk = get *****. once u get on stage after getting ***** by mk offstage, he will plank more and more.
 

linkisthebest123

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one projectile you seem to have forgotten is pikachus b move. also, a running down b can go directly by the ledge, touching it, and its a constant hit, causing mk to get off the ledge, but that still puts pika in an awkward position. But pika can space his t jolts to hit twice on the ledge.
 

linkisthebest123

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DMG, all the characters have the same ledge invincibility.

Also, invincibility does not carry over from dropping the ledge. (You ledge drop, you lose invincibility)
just a question. are you actually this dumb? pika has the least ledge invincibility of ALL characters. and i can tell just by maining pika, and then playing other characters.

IDK about the dropping from the ledge, but seriously? you are SERIOUSLY questioning DMG? do you realize how much research he has probably put into this?
 

DMG

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Pikachu's B move? AKA thunderjolts? Lol.

Thunder is interesting actually. Down B edge grabbing takes care of it though. That and MK can also depending on when thunder is used, he can drop down, Double Jump onstage with an airdodge, and recover from lag before or around when Pika does.

And yes Pika has the least, besides tethers IIRC.
 

Tesh

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If you are being constantly harrassed and forced to keep regrabbing for invincibility, aren't you just going to wind up over the 40-50 ledge grabs and lose the match anyway?

From what I have read, it seems like continuous invincibility requires grabbing the ledge at least once every couple of seconds.

Projectile/disjointed harrassment=more ledge grabs for continuous invincibility or moving away from the ledge and being vulnerable. So wouldn't the MK wind up losing anyway?
 
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If you are being constantly harrassed and forced to keep regrabbing for invincibility, aren't you just going to wind up over the 40-50 ledge grabs and lose the match anyway?

From what I have read, it seems like continuous invincibility requires grabbing the ledge at least once every couple of seconds.

Projectile/disjointed harrassment=more ledge grabs for continuous invincibility or moving away from the ledge and being vulnerable. So wouldn't the MK wind up losing anyway?
We've proven that LGLs are a poor solution to the problem. >.<
 

Nanaki

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I also seem to recall a pound4 doubles match where the number of LG's was 150+, but the team wasn't DQ'd.

Fault on the part of the TO for not enforcing a rule, or do we not need a LGL in teams?
 

T0MMY

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I enjoyed reading about the frame data on this, but there was such a bias slant towards instilling fear in the reader it felt like it under-painted a hidden agenda.

The OP dismisses being able to grab the edge because it'd be too difficult, downplays the options you have when doing so, overlooks some of the projectiles that can be used on MK at the ledge, dismisses the effects of hitting MK with projectiles, and otherwise paints a picture to make me want to fear Meta Knight planking me. Why? Is this one of those childish "ban MK" threads that litters this site? We want data, not persuasion.

Sure it's difficult to hit MK when he's Planking, but why leave out how difficult it is for the MK player to perform quarter-circle edge-snaps to frame-perfect double U-airs, into frame-perfect Dimensional Cape stalling while avoiding/grabbing projectiles.
Why not say MK has "laser" priority on his aerials-- his sword passes through solid objects as if it were a laser; which means he cannot hit projectiles away!
Why not say Z-dropping objects like Bananas and Gyros (yeah, you forgot about the Gyro!!!) is a slow fall compared to a Smash Toss which will keep the hit box on him longer improving chances you hit him out of Planking. Oh, but you did mention him being hit by Bananas and immediately went on to dismiss it because they don't do enough damage.
I play competitively, I know the pressures of a high-level match. If someone continually gets hit out of their strategy the are forced to change it up.

But most importantly:

STALLING TACTICS ONLY ARE ADVANTAGEOUS IF WE HAVE A POOR RULESET!

********************************************​

I implore EVERYONE hosting a tournament to use the SSBB Ruleset Tournament Edition Spring 2010 for their rules.

********************************************​

It covers EVERYTHING, including stalling, running the clock, etc.
I've said it for a year now, the current rules most TOs use are encouraging poor competitive gameplay. By changing the one rule that defaults a win to the one stalling and running the clock you are encouraging stalling tactics. If a match times out, just replay same stage with 1 stock. Then there's no advantage to running the clock. Simple as that... read the rules I linked above!

The group for discussion on the Tournament Edition Spring 2010 rules can be found here: http://allisbrawl.com/group.aspx?id=10524
 
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It covers EVERYTHING, including stalling, running the clock, etc.


Rules of Fair Play and Good Sportsmanship
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tactics that go against fair play will result in a warning or forfeiture on part of the player using them. These types of actions include, but are not limted to: excessive stalling, unnecessary/excessive pausing, disabling the opponent's controller, and using glitches/hacks/etc that freeze characters or otherwise make the round unplayable.

All players are expected to participate with an attitude of Good Sportsmanship. It is common sportsmanship, upon ending a tournament set, to shake the other player's hand regardless of winning or losing. All attendees, and their possessions, are to be respected, as are the tournament hosts/organizers and the venue.

Players exhibiting poor sportsmanship are subject to warnings, penalties or removal from the tournament as deemed by the Tournament Organizers.
You know, there was a noob in the MK thread that had similar rules, and he got flamed. Subjective, judge-decided rule=bad.
 

Overswarm

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I'm pretty sure everyone on smashboards has learned to ignore Tommy by now, lol XD
 

DMG

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Tommy: Framewise, the cast ISN'T supposed to be able to grab the edge, and if they do, MK has a big enough frame advantage on everyone save Pika and Tethers to safely get away or get onstage from that position. Grabbing the edge as almost anyone in the cast is generally not an amazing solution to the planking. Seriously, how good of an answer to planking, is grabbing the edge, when MK can now safely return onstage? You now basically have forced yourself into a position where MK is onstage and you are on the edge (which SUCKS for most characters to have to deal with), or if MK doesn't want to do that he can get onstage and then start to run to the other edge.

Quarter Circle edgesnaps? Those are pretty easy to do, but the bigger question is why someone who is planking is required to do something like that lol. As for his Sword, yes it has that priority, but it's rarely an issue with projectiles to begin with. Most projectiles you can grab, hit to destroy, or hit to smack away regardless of what priority you have. Him having that priority on his sword attacks is not that big of a deal.

There honestly are NOT that many "solid" projectile choices in stopping planking. That is the sad, sad truth, and I'm not gonna tell someone "Oh yeah no that will definitely work, he's sooooooo vulnerable" when it looks clear that something shouldn't work. Sure, maybe the planker gets tired and makes mistakes, but what does this suggest? Fault of the player, or the projectile actually working?

Gyro... it's ok. Z dropping it doesn't change much. In fact you could argue that it makes it easier for MK to try and catch or swat it away since it travels at him slower. To Z drop stuff effectively, you have to be vertically over MK. Which can be very risky if you miscalculate and he just comes up and swoops at you or gets back onstage for free while you are basically mostly above him. As ROB, not a very pleasant spot to be in. As Diddy, it's not incredibly bad but he would rather stay grounded where it is safer.

Bananas in particular are just kinda meh at stopping planking. Two BIG problems it has are that like I said, they don't do a lot of damage (especially if you are just throwing them and they get stale) and that they don't have the knockback to try and kill the planker. If the Bananas had at least 1 of those qualities, it could be redeemable as a good anti planking projectile. But it doesn't. If the planker gets a stock lead, Bananas won't do CRAP for you. If you have a lead stronger than 30%, you will have to hit with a quite a few of them to even think about getting the lead back. All the while, MK having a plethora of options to deal with them.

YOU SHOULD BE AFRAID OF MK PLANKING YOU! Framewise it is extremely strong, strong enough that without any kind of restrictions put in place, he is ban worthy. Hell, something is wrong with you if you aren't at least appalled at how strong it is.

I also read those rules. You didn't specifically mention planking. You said Stalling is banned, but not excessive camping. Are you gonna make a judgement call whenever someone says "Hey this guy is planking/stalling" "No, I'm just camping really hard"?
 

AMKalmar

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I read the first and last few pages but skipped the rest so I don't know if this was covered. How does PK Thunder do against it? He can probably just chop it. Ness' trail can last awhile if you get it past him. Ah, who am I kidding. He can just slash it with anything and it's gone.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Pit or Pika/someone relevant to planking "good"
 

Spelt

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the line where you link to GW's frame data is borderline unreadable.
can you change it to something like an underlined or bigger font?
 

DMG

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I made it a different color, and bigger font

YAY also like I said in my post lots of credit to Hotgarbage and Kprime for a TON of this info.
 
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