Planking Info (G&W Added)

[Spelt]

Yay thanks! that's better.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wow, my data was off a tad.

So would you say this definitely proves that G&W planking isn't broken?

Also do Ganon planking, he has funny things he can do.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lol, ban ganon.

 

[DMG]

Yes. I would say this means his planking is definitely not broken. Don't get me wrong, it's still strong, however it is nowhere NEAR the level MK reaches. There are only 2 really redeeming qualities of G&W when planking. The Uair windbox pushing characters and certain projectiles away is nice, and knowing that Nair is unpunishable if you have to shield drop to try and punish it is nice. However, it sucks that he loses invincibility before any of his aerials end, and that his Upb has so much cooldown lag/also cannot grab the edge until frame 15.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It makes you rethink who we should put LGL's on.

 

[J4pu]

It makes you rethink who we should put LGL's on ban.

all those pro-GW-ban people can suck it

 

[da K.I.D.]

from what I understood after I read this (not everything) it seems like each one if of GWs planking options is punishable and beatable, but only with unobtainable reflexes and/or prediction.

even with this knowledge, the odds are still highly stacked in his favor.

I dont know why but im surprised to come to this conclusion.

 

[DMG]

No you don't need unobtainable reflexes. He has many different holes to exploit. It becomes a game of which ones you want to try and get past. Before he does an aerial, after, while he is doing one, when he wants to Upb, etc.

 

[studly]

good stuff ^^ thanks for such detailed info

 

[da K.I.D.]

ill argue this with you a bit tomorrow.

 

[J4pu]

point is, GW can feasibly be touched while planking, MK cannot

I don't think it was ever said GW is putting himself into a disadvantageous position while planking.
I mean it's just a guessing game with GW, with MK it's if he does it right, you're screwed.

If GW is about to run out of invincibility start moving towards the edge
he can either drop + immediate aerial - punishable by shielding/staying out of range > edgehog during the cooldown (> punish using your own invincibility)
he can drop > DJ aerial - punishable by predicting it and going straight for the edge-hog > punish with your own invincibility
he can stay on the edge - punishable by many means after invincibility ends

With MK if you're within range of his sword he'll be drop > Uair > DJ Uair > regrab which apparently is unpunishable if it hits your shield and if you space yourself out of range you cant get in before regrab + more invincibility > repeat

 

[Mota]

Excellent analysis DMG

Definitely do Pit next.

 

[Clai]

Wow, my data was off a tad.

So would you say this definitely proves that G&W planking isn't broken?

Also do Ganon planking, he has funny things he can do.

lol, ban ganon.

I don't know when I'll have the time, likely next week, but I'm going to do a full analysis of Ganon planking to see what he can do when he's invincible.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hey DMG, after you put up the data for the normal planking characters, could you put up Bowsers? I'm kinda curious about how it turns out with the Up B invincibility frames. Maybe the same with DK? Because from what little bit I have tested with Bowser, you can't grab the ledge during the invincibility frames, but you can right afterwards.

 

[Flayl]

Nidtendofreak: If Marth can't plank, what makes you think Bowser can?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nidtendofreak: If Marth can't plank, what makes you think Bowser can?

Curiosity. I wanna see how close Bowser can get to planking well. >_> <_<

 

[CR4SH]

10plank

 

[studly]

Ganon Planking! only the funniest thing in brawl IMO

 

[MarKO X]

lol

I had no idea there was a G&W gallery 4.

 

[DMG]

I own all of the G&W Gallery games. I love them

 

[rPSIvysaur]

all those pro-GW-ban people can suck it

@_@ I play Gdubs in tournament...

MK is the only one who's planking should be banned. IMO Gdubs should be able to grab the ledge as many times, otherwise we should limit how much time Falco has to spend on stage, it's basically the same thing.

 

[J4pu]

@_@ I play Gdubs in tournament...

MK is the only one who's planking should be banned. IMO Gdubs should be able to grab the ledge as many times, otherwise we should limit how much time Falco has to spend on stage, it's basically the same thing.

...
I don't understand what from reading my post made you think I want GW to have a LGL

in the quote i edited i inferred that GW shouldn't be banned as an unintended side effect to my saying MK should be banned, so from there I went and made a joke that all those people who want GW banned (who dont exist btw, it's a joke) can "suck it"

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I thought you were assuming that wanted Gdubs to have LGL >.>

anyway, ban Gdubs, he's really annoying to fight against and doesn't afraid of anything.

 

[Player-1]

peanuts are pro vs plankers

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Inb4readOP

 

[Player-1]

Inb4readOP

i did...that's why i posted that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Gonna bump this thread. I don't think ANYONE currently arguing against an MK ban at the moment actually read this.

 

[Problem2]

I read it. I fold...

 

[Tesh]

I'm not the most knowledgeable person around here so could someone link me to the proof that ledge grab limits don't work. Your step by step read of perfect stalling lasts 46-52 frames before MK has to make a choice to risk vulnerability or regrab the ledge. That means if he never takes the risk, he is grabbing the ledge every second.

The frame data in this thread just seems to prove that grabbing the ledge dozens of times a minute is completely invincible. With constant harassment that forces an MK to keep regrabbing, you either force an confrontation when he runs out of ledge grabs, or he simply loses with a ledge grab limit.

The scenario in the OP assumes that the player onstage makes obvious and predictable use of projectiles, while the MK planking plays with a perfection of timing that would make him untouchable onstage anyway. It basically points out that a skilled Metaknight would beat a low level player.

Characters like snake and pikachu (to a lesser extent) can have active hitboxes on stage while edgehogging. Not to mention, simply spamming the ledge with hitboxes from a distance means MK has to:
A) Go over the ledge grab limit, staying invincible until the timer runs out.
B) Fight onstage long enough to stall with complete invulnerability without breaking the grab limit.
C)Risk vulnerable air time away from the ledge to avoid the hitboxes near the ledge.

The best way to prove the claims made thus far would be to use this type of stalling in a tournament with a ledge grab limit or at least a video that shows an MK dealing with a mix of c4, grenades, mortars and even nikita missles all at once without being harmed or passing a ledge grab limit. You say that projectiles aren't a threat because of Cape ledge grabbing, and that edgehogging isn't a threat because of being able to aim the landing onstage, but there are characters that can edgehog and have active hitboxes onstage.

As someone mentioned days ago, snake can set up explosvies to denotate near the ledge synced up with edgehogging. I'm envisioning something like this : C4 set to auto detonate on the ledge, nikita far above the stage falling in front of the ledge, a mine and a grenade onstage, mortar slide to the edge with a 2nd grenade in hand. Edgehog with safety from the explosion of the 2nd grenade. Unless you use yet another already banned tactic(IDC) to escape the mess of explosions onstage, how do you deal with that with impunity?

As for Ice climbers, I'm fairly sure desynced, they can grab the ledge and have an active blizzard/ice block spam/ grab onstage at the same time. Even floating blizzards at under the ledge are possible if it would matter.

I agree that maybe there are more people complaining than actually looking into what their characters can do about ledge stalling, so maybe more complex answers to the problem aren't as readily available as whats listed in the OP.

Perhaps of you take a few suggestions, get some help from people that don't agree with you and make a video to illustrate your point, it would make more sense.

As for a ruleset showing favoritism, the ruleset already does. Any ruleset or stage is going to favor some characters over others. I'm not going to suggest that we have "counterpick rules", but it should be noted that the current ruleset isn't the best choice just because "it was there first". The current ruleset gives a pretty big incentive to stall anyway.

Also my question from a couple of pages back wasn't answered. If grabbing the ledge a substantial amount of times per minute is broken, how is a limit a poor solution. Someone posted the match with Puffster vs Plank with the "air planking" as evidence pages ago. But every time the Diddy had a lead, he wound up being overpowered and outplayed anyway within seconds. It wasn't interesting to watch, but the diddy was obviously not going to win in an "honorable" fight anyway.

tl;dr

Alot of questions, please enlighten me. It simply isn't very convincing to me yet.

 

[J4pu]

you dont even have the choice to edge-hog if MK is doing the drop Uair DJ Uair regrab tactic
this has been discussed many times now, maybe you should read some of the pages of responses before repeating questions.
The DC edge-stall is just for long range projectiles that cause the character using them extensive cooldown, Ness/lucas PKT Snake nikita etc.

The LGL is just a bad idea not because it doesn't stop perfect planking (throughout the entire match) but because then we're altering the game to cater to MK (again) because of an integral part of the game breaks him as a character. The ledge does not break any other character supposedly, and that's why DMG did GW and is still planning on doing more, why are we altering an integral part of the game to keep an already borderline character playable? Not to mention the number of LGs allowed is subjective, which is something "we" try to avoid while making rules. Then there's still the chance that MK plays campy for 6 minutes (or however long he calculates it out to be) then gets a slight lead and perfect planks the remaining time away. The more LG's we allow the more we allow this strategy, the less we allow the greater the chance somebody gets unjustly disqualified, thus one problem with subjective rules.

This is what I remember the arguments being.

 

[DMG]

1. Grenades run on a timer. You can grab the edge to gain invincibility as they explode. You can not only airdodge them, but you can make them explode on purpose as you are invincible by attacking it.

2. Mortars, to be effective, need to be shot at close range. This makes it hard for you to "sit afar" tossing stuff from a safe distance.

3. Nikita is not that good of an Anti planking projectile. First, you have to decide where to deploy it from. The closer you are, the bigger risk you have of getting hit yourself. The further away you are, the safer you are, with the trade off being that the Nikita won't last as long once it reaches MK, and that it's easier to see and figure out ahead of time what to do/when to time a edge grab. Nikitas can also be attacked and redirected while not exploding.

4. C4... well Snake giving off when it will explode is kind of a bummer. If Snake was more discrete about the explosion, I could see that being a problem. Besides the issue of how do you get close enough to lay down the C4 safely, the problem IMO is that it is too linear of a projectile/tool. You place it, and done it stays there. If it could move around like Grenades, that might be a different story.

5. Mortar slide? You could just... U know... Hit Snake? Lol. Mortar sliding anywhere next to the edge if MK is planking is a no no. Also that situation you presented is far from realistic. A Nikita, if aimed upwards and timed to fall downwards right as you are edge hogging/timed like that CLEARLY leaves Snake open onstage. If you do that, and MK comes onstage, what do you do? You obviously have to stop it earlier than you wanted if you don't want to get punished. Which means now your setup is ruined.



I have a MM with Razer. He's not wanted to MM my MK with his Snake, and for good reason lol. But I will try to get that recorded, and display what MK can do to avoid stuff.

 

[Tesh]

you dont even have the choice to edge-hog if MK is doing the drop Uair DJ Uair regrab tactic
this has been discussed many times now, maybe you should read some of the pages of responses before repeating questions.
The DC edge-stall is just for long range projectiles that cause the character using them extensive cooldown, Ness/lucas PKT Snake nikita etc.

The LGL is just a bad idea not because it doesn't stop perfect planking (throughout the entire match) but because then we're altering the game to cater to MK (again) because of an integral part of the game breaks him as a character. The ledge does not break any other character supposedly, and that's why DMG did GW and is still planning on doing more, why are we altering an integral part of the game to keep an already borderline character playable? Not to mention the number of LGs allowed is subjective, which is something "we" try to avoid while making rules. Then there's still the chance that MK plays campy for 6 minutes (or however long he calculates it out to be) then gets a slight lead and perfect planks the remaining time away. The more LG's we allow the more we allow this strategy, the less we allow the greater the chance somebody gets unjustly disqualified, thus one problem with subjective rules.

This is what I remember the arguments being.

OP says he isn't invincible throughout the entire 2nd Uair, so he would get hit by falling projectiles possibly. OP doesn't say you never have the option of grabbing the ledge, it just states that it is difficult and that MK is in too strong of a position if he lands onstage anyway. So what I'm asking is which option does MK have that avoids all threats in that situation due to invulnerability.

As for LGLs, rules and laws can't be perfect. There are some negatives to consider with any change. As long as the positive effect outweighs the negative effect, it shouldn't be a problem.

What's the problem with playing campy and safe onstage for 6-7 minutes then stalling? Did the other player not have a fair shot at taking the lead back or is playing campy broken as well? If I play normally for 7 minutes and 59 seconds and then spotdodge, is that stalling for 30 frames? An LGL just means you can't be invincible forever. Do you have any examples of someone being wrongfully disqualified for needing to recover 50 times in one match that timed out?

How is an LGL subjective? It sets a number that is easy to identify after the match ends. Its just as clear as "the player with the higher percent loses". A new rule that brings one character "back in line" is the same as banning homing attack stalling or IDC.

DMG

I get that grenades are on a set timer, and that makes them predictable by themselves. But it also means to deal with them, you also have to commit to "dealing with them" at a set time. My point is that snake can set you up to deal with several other things at the same time. I don't understand what you mean about snake being left open onstage if he times the nikita properly. Snake should be invincble on the ledge as explosions go off above, below and to the sides of the ledge. I understand your list of options to handle each one of these problems, but I'm not seeing which option is covering all of them. Which is it?

It would be nice to see a video, it would make it much clearer.

 

[DMG]

Nikita is SLOW... it takes time to set up (at least the way you are talking about).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I believe the reason why LGLs for MK only is bad is best demonstrated by my "MK Gay Stage Rule" argument.

We're willing to put a rule into the game to limit MK; to make him "not broken". Why not go the extra step and implement a rule that makes MK not only not broken, but more or less fair for a good character? Specifically, we take away his ability to counterpick, his ability to ban, and make the non-MK able to choose the stage out of a list of all available stages (including banned stages) on EVERY match. This gives MK actual counters (like ICs and Falco on Eldin, Snake on most walkoffs and especially MSI, etc.) and removes the need for a ledge grab limit as well.

Why is that rule less legitimate than a ledge grab limit? It's clearly in the game only to limit a certain character. We're not limiting his use of an integral part of the in-match game which can easily be done by mistake (such as banning his tornado; what if he accidentally presses B? This rule is not like that). It's easily enforced, no more subjective than LGLs, and far more discreet. Therefore, it is, in fact, a better rule than LGLs (which also don't solve things like MK ****** the living **** out of half the cast on his counterpick)... so why bother with LGLs when you can have the "MK Gay Stage Rule"?

Also, of course, there's the fact that if you need a rule in the game limiting a character's use of a simple common character resource (not! a glitch) you are admitting that this character is broken and should be banned.

 

[J4pu]

OP says he isn't invincible throughout the entire 2nd Uair, so he would get hit by falling projectiles possibly. OP doesn't say you never have the option of grabbing the ledge, it just states that it is difficult and that MK is in too strong of a position if he lands onstage anyway. So what I'm asking is which option does MK have that avoids all threats in that situation due to invulnerability.

How is an LGL subjective? It sets a number that is easy to identify after the match ends. Its just as clear as "the player with the higher percent loses". A new rule that brings one character "back in line" is the same as banning homing attack stalling or IDC.

The number of LGL's chosen is subjective and as I said before depending on which way you move with it (more or less allowed) you are increasing a the probability of a different bad outcome from the rule.

MK doesn't have invincibility throughout his 2nd Uair no, but his Uair covers above and to the side of him and has almost 0 cooldown at which time he regrabs the edge and regains invincibility, so what do you plan on doing? Stand at the edge and shield it, then attempt to punish? by the time you shield drop MK will be on the edge again, if you have a decent OOS option chances are it won't hit the position MK is in (below and in front of you) since all good OOs options that I can think of involve the jump input then something > hitting above and in front/behind you. You want to stand far away from the edge then run in so you don't have to drop shield, can't do it not enough frames. You want to fall down from above MK and face the long disjointed transcendent priority Uair head-on? good luck with that. You want to maneuver your way out around MK then come in from a side he's more vulnerable on, then you're offstage vs MK after using (at least) 1 DJ to get there and MK still doesn't have to confront you if he doesn't feel like it, he can get on stage and run to the other edge since it's not like you're going to surprise him with your large looping path around the outside of him (which you need to avoid the Uair hitbox).

As far as I can tell, this breaks MK

 

[Clai]

On a purely technical standpoint, Melee has a far worse problem with plankers than Brawl does, especially since wavedash -> edgehog takes up more time than simply running to the ledge and hogging it. Yet there was never enough of a problem with planking that Melee TO's had to think about LGL's or anything of the sort. Whatever encouraged players in Melee to fight the other character and not camp the ledge for eight minutes can probably happen in Brawl too, and I hope we can find a way soon, because I also think LGLs are a silly concept and shouldn't be implemented.

 

[J4pu]

well in melee characters didn't float like fairies, so one mistake likely meant a stock. the only characters I know of who could plank (while fully invincible) were sheik, fox, falco, and M2 in melee,
M2 didn't have a hitbox on the UpB, easy edge-hog
Sheik's hitbox came out late enough that I don't think it could stop characters from edge-hogging.
fox and falco just had very difficult ones that would be amazingly difficult to keep going for 8 minutes, although they do seem to be applicable in comparison to the current situation (ledge drop shine upB stall) it puts out a fast hit box and then regrabs the edge while retaining invincibility. of course in this case, one mistake of misplacing the UpB likely meant a stock whereas with MK it means some amount of damage and is less likely to happen due to the technical difficulty difference between the methods.

I have seen plank plank a match with sheik vs an ICs before though. one of the worst melee matches Ive ever watched (from a spectator's viewpoint)

 

[UltiMario]

We're willing to put a rule into the game to limit MK; to make him "not broken". Why not go the extra step and implement a rule that makes MK not only not broken, but more or less fair for a good character? Specifically, we take away his ability to counterpick, his ability to ban, and make the non-MK able to choose the stage out of a list of all available stages (including banned stages) on EVERY match. This gives MK actual counters (like ICs and Falco on Eldin, Snake on most walkoffs and especially MSI, etc.) and removes the need for a ledge grab limit as well.

You know that rules like these are only used for testing purposes, right? Just to see what the outcome would be like.

The Pro-ban's current arguement is that MK is Banworthy from invinciblity on the edge, thats why LGLs and Scrooging limits/bans are common ideas, but these rules are also tested just to see the results.

If its official that LGLs and Scrooging are limited in any sort of way, then that will probably be about it. The pro-ban's current arguement only concerns Ledges, so ledges would and should be the only concern at this point, and will probably be the only concern at that point.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Our "current" argument. The whole "he's broken and overdominant without planking" part has been, more or less, ignored. :V

 

[J4pu]

The whole "he's broken and overdominant without planking" part has been, more or less, ignored. :V

well it's going to be impossible to convince them otherwise on this part, I mean did you see how strongly they fought against DMG's frame data for planking being unbeatable?
with people that close minded, nothing but unlimited invulnerability is going to change their mind, which is just dumb.