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Planking Info (G&W Added)
- Thread starter DMG
- Start date
overgamer
Smash Ace
Do you think over uses of planking would actually ruins a competitive gameplay?
Does it deserve a ban or something?
Does it deserve a ban or something?
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Metaknight's planking breaks the game in half. Read the thread a little more.
It's banworthy for the tactic, or arguably the only char who can abuse the tactic to this extent.
humble
Smash Ace
DMG I look forward to you doing Pit.
While MK is on the ledge could Pit arrow rain (arrow loop three arrows following each other) and since he can control them, make them loop down and hit meta on the ledge, and Pit himself pressures meta? The three arrows will outlast his invincibility, if meta drops down Pit can mirrorshield to turn him around, bair drop, WoI to snap to ledge, if meta glides under pit can snipe w/ arrow or chase with his faster glide. If meta tries to abuse the invincibility frames either the arrows will hit, or pit (standing on stage and shooting an arrow over the lip of the stage, so meta is pressured by 4 arrows in succession) will hit with his arrow.
I think that meta's planking is severly broken, but there are vulnerability frames there, and I think Pit could land an arrow. If meta just drops, pit could also just not finish the loop and the angle would go down and follow him, the three arrows outlast an airdodge invincibiliy, ledge invincibility, and pit could steal the ledge with a WoI snap. While meta has good tools while next ot someone on the ledge, pit could just roll onstage and reset the situation. And meta planking against pit has to deal with constant pressure while pit can safely stay away and abuse his arrows, leading to a low risk low reward situation, while meta is in a high risk no reward situation. Whereas pit while on the ledge still applies pressure on his opponents through arrows, and so he has proactive camping unlike MK. While I think that MK is undoubtably the best on the ledge and best planker in the game, I would say pit on the ledge is second best to MK.
While MK is on the ledge could Pit arrow rain (arrow loop three arrows following each other) and since he can control them, make them loop down and hit meta on the ledge, and Pit himself pressures meta? The three arrows will outlast his invincibility, if meta drops down Pit can mirrorshield to turn him around, bair drop, WoI to snap to ledge, if meta glides under pit can snipe w/ arrow or chase with his faster glide. If meta tries to abuse the invincibility frames either the arrows will hit, or pit (standing on stage and shooting an arrow over the lip of the stage, so meta is pressured by 4 arrows in succession) will hit with his arrow.
I think that meta's planking is severly broken, but there are vulnerability frames there, and I think Pit could land an arrow. If meta just drops, pit could also just not finish the loop and the angle would go down and follow him, the three arrows outlast an airdodge invincibiliy, ledge invincibility, and pit could steal the ledge with a WoI snap. While meta has good tools while next ot someone on the ledge, pit could just roll onstage and reset the situation. And meta planking against pit has to deal with constant pressure while pit can safely stay away and abuse his arrows, leading to a low risk low reward situation, while meta is in a high risk no reward situation. Whereas pit while on the ledge still applies pressure on his opponents through arrows, and so he has proactive camping unlike MK. While I think that MK is undoubtably the best on the ledge and best planker in the game, I would say pit on the ledge is second best to MK.
If MK is only vulnerable for 1 frame concerning down B, then it's highly unlikely that you could reasonably expect to successfully stop him with arrows. The larger the gap or frame window, the better your prospects are obviously.
killerrobo
Smash Cadet
you forgot misiles
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
So hang on. Have we just shown that MK's planking is beatable, AKA not broken... Can we unban planking now?
Debatable. If he is only vulnerable for 1 frame (might be more. No one's given me a definitive answer even though the window visually appears small to begin with) period at the end of Down B, I don't think that's much different from 100% invincible. The burden for the other person to stop that, with only that much of a window, is certainly unrealistic. Everything else holds true however concerning MK's advantage on shield and people not being to punish it barring an extremely fast and reaching Aerial+Jump OOS (because you have to jump OOS not drop the shield and then try to aerial obviously) or an Upb OOS that will reach low enough to hit MK. That or a grounded move after you drop shield that is 3 frames and can reach, assuming you are frame perfect dropping shield and doing an attack (AKA MK's Dtilt if they are not spacing well or Ftilt or something similar. Snake's Ftilt won't reach low enough IIRC.)
Basically it becomes a question of how much you allow personally or your thoughts on what would be broken. If MK was undeniably 100% unstoppable in every way with planking (meaning something obvious like he was given 200 frames of invincibility and could grab the edge on frame 55 lol), someone could argue that "Oh well just don't let MK get the lead and problem solved".
Basically it becomes a question of how much you allow personally or your thoughts on what would be broken. If MK was undeniably 100% unstoppable in every way with planking (meaning something obvious like he was given 200 frames of invincibility and could grab the edge on frame 55 lol), someone could argue that "Oh well just don't let MK get the lead and problem solved".
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
1 frame means he isn't invincible. I know, it's still ********...but there are plenty of lasting hitboxes that would work.
Still, I don't think having planking kept limited would enrage the community much.
Still, I don't think having planking kept limited would enrage the community much.
^^^^ AKA arguments like that.
"It's possible to do something unrealistic/hard to stop this from occurring".
Why limit it... if you can stop it just as you suggested? If there are plenty of lingering hitboxes, then no big deal right?
"It's possible to do something unrealistic/hard to stop this from occurring".
Why limit it... if you can stop it just as you suggested? If there are plenty of lingering hitboxes, then no big deal right?
hotgarbage
Smash Lord
Just double checked it. MK's dimensional cape is invincible on frames 18-26. The earliest point where he can grab the ledge out of the move is frame 28 . This leaves him vulnerable on frame 27.
So yes, when done correctly MK is vulnerable for exactly one frame when using dimensional cape on the ledge.
So yes, when done correctly MK is vulnerable for exactly one frame when using dimensional cape on the ledge.
Ok, barring all frame data, i'm sure the OP is a fantastic source of information, but for some newbs like me, i cannot find a SINGLE thread where anything is actually explained HOW to plank or do any of this
from what i have gathered, you basically grab the ledge, drop as quickly as the game allows you, and regrab?
from what i have gathered, you basically grab the ledge, drop as quickly as the game allows you, and regrab?
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
that's the basic gyst of it, but with the information provided here, this is your best guide in how to plank. Its not just regrabbing the ledge, its abusing the frames so you can't get hurt, all different depending on the situation.
with MK, you do a falling uair, then a rising uair and regrab frame-perfect, or do a frame perfect downB to grab the ledge. That's the frame perfect versions. If they're not close enough/not doing anything, yeah, just drop, float around a bit, and regrab.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
You have to put your hand in a blender.
i bet sakurai made it this way just to troll the **** out of us
Lol, It sounds like something he would do. Or I would do for that matter.
At any rate, are there any other characters that sill need to be looked at besides MK and G&W? I know Pit was mentioned a few times in the OP, is he currently being assessed or is this project on haitus atm?
I have been quite busy the past few days. I will post some stuff about Pit later on. He is pretty interesting, the thing that hurts him most is how long his Uair lasts (invincibility wears off before the move is over IIRC).
overgamer
Smash Ace
Dont forget to press the "TURN ON" button
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
no one besdies mk will ever plank effectively because everyone maining like gnw and pit are too worried trying to play their own style
Here's the problem.
The edge is a facet of play that any character can use. Every character can grab the edge, every character has the same ledge actions given to them. Some characters are naturally more gifted than others concerning ledge play, just as some are more gifted in air game or ground game or transition. The edge would be a normal aspect of play EXCEPT that it gives out that much invincibility. Planking or really strong ledge play in general would be almost obsolete if, when you grabbed the edge, there was a delay on when you first got invincibility. But it doesn't work that way sadly, and you have the problem of people being invincible as they grab the edge and retaining it for almost an entire second.
Characters like MK are unbelievable strong on the edge. This normally would be acceptable, but when you throw in the invincibility, it turns really strong into "Well theoretically you aren't supposed to beat him if he gets the lead and planks you". We can't take away invincibility, and forcing people to either avoid the edge or force them to use different edge options could be unfair (as that would benefit the hell out of MK too, along with making the edge terrible). You can try putting a limit on how many times you can grab the edge, but any number you come up with is gonna be arbitrary and you imply something stupid like "Oh grabbing the edge 34 times is ok, but 35 on up is not acceptable" which just makes the strategy now to plank -1 the limit.
What is clear is that the strategy, left completely alone, dominates the game and turns the game further South than it has already gone. On the other hand, any "regulations" you impose on it will either not work, will be a headache to enforce, will work but restricts a natural part of the game (assuming you impose a LGL to every character in the game), and if you impose one on solely MK you imply that the character is so strong that he deserves special rules to even be allowed to compete. There's no good solution, only two evils and you gotta pick the lesser evil. In this case, allowing planking completely is out of the question (mostly MK), so you're probably gonna have to settle with a less than appealing rule or limit or imposed restriction.
The edge is a facet of play that any character can use. Every character can grab the edge, every character has the same ledge actions given to them. Some characters are naturally more gifted than others concerning ledge play, just as some are more gifted in air game or ground game or transition. The edge would be a normal aspect of play EXCEPT that it gives out that much invincibility. Planking or really strong ledge play in general would be almost obsolete if, when you grabbed the edge, there was a delay on when you first got invincibility. But it doesn't work that way sadly, and you have the problem of people being invincible as they grab the edge and retaining it for almost an entire second.
Characters like MK are unbelievable strong on the edge. This normally would be acceptable, but when you throw in the invincibility, it turns really strong into "Well theoretically you aren't supposed to beat him if he gets the lead and planks you". We can't take away invincibility, and forcing people to either avoid the edge or force them to use different edge options could be unfair (as that would benefit the hell out of MK too, along with making the edge terrible). You can try putting a limit on how many times you can grab the edge, but any number you come up with is gonna be arbitrary and you imply something stupid like "Oh grabbing the edge 34 times is ok, but 35 on up is not acceptable" which just makes the strategy now to plank -1 the limit.
What is clear is that the strategy, left completely alone, dominates the game and turns the game further South than it has already gone. On the other hand, any "regulations" you impose on it will either not work, will be a headache to enforce, will work but restricts a natural part of the game (assuming you impose a LGL to every character in the game), and if you impose one on solely MK you imply that the character is so strong that he deserves special rules to even be allowed to compete. There's no good solution, only two evils and you gotta pick the lesser evil. In this case, allowing planking completely is out of the question (mostly MK), so you're probably gonna have to settle with a less than appealing rule or limit or imposed restriction.
I punish MKs on frame 27 all the time when they plank. If I can do it anyone can do it. If you can't punish a 1 frame window then you ****ing suck anyway. Unban planking plz.
****ing scrubs...Just dont let him get the lead anyway.
****ing scrubs...Just dont let him get the lead anyway.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Lol @ not letting MK get the lead... Have you ever seen his neutral b?
Hobobloke
Atemon Game
Internet - 1, Sarcasm - 0
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
So technically planking is beatable... ban, y/n?
sunshade
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 863
It does not matter if MK's planking is unbeatable. So long as it does not make the game unplayable it is not banned by the BBR in any way. A match being completely one sided with zero frames to regain a lead is not against the rules so long as the match is still playable.
technically speaking MK vs a lot of the cast on stage using perfect spacing/reaction allows for zero frames to punish him however nobody argues for MK on stage to be banned. MK planking is the same thing only simpler to preform and on the ledges.
technically speaking MK vs a lot of the cast on stage using perfect spacing/reaction allows for zero frames to punish him however nobody argues for MK on stage to be banned. MK planking is the same thing only simpler to preform and on the ledges.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
when are you going to do pit, pika and marth among other chars?
I've been kinda busy with stuff at home. However I shall do both Pit and Pika in one swoop. What I can tell you from here is that past Pika and Pit, everyone else that might look "good" planking is actually fairly bad.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
jiggs and mario in low tiers is legit imo. especially jiggs on brinstar get at that
Veril
Frame Savant
Um, if we're talking about Planking as "ledge-stalling via use of spaced invincible ledge-drop aerials to stuff to regrab" Jiggs isn't that good. She has nothing comparable to MK's up-air or even what Pit and GW have. Her stalling game is very good however, especially with rising pound. You can't really quantify that as well as ledge-based planking.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
Would it be possible for you to get info for ledge snaps for the rest of the characters?
Mew2King
King of the Mews
wait, Pikachu seems a LOT faster off the edge than MK. Anther showed me stuff