Planking Info (G&W Added)

[6Mizu]

wait, Pikachu seems a LOT faster off the edge than MK. Anther showed me stuff

Whoa is this true?
but wait Pika doesn't really have that many options of the edge does he?

 

[DMG]

I'm pretty sure there was a post on the Pika boards about his edge frame data.

HERE'S THE SCOOP ON PIKA:

He gets off the edge faster than anyone else besides tethers. However as a consequence, he is granted less invincibility frames.

So for most characters, you can't do anything on the edge until frame 25. Pika it's like frame 3? I think. Ledge invincibility for normal characters lasts until frame 46, so you get 21 frames of Useable invincibility. Pikachu's invincibility runs out frame 24, so he also has 21 frames of invincibility. IIRC, he also shares the same frame data concerning when he can first grab the edge again after letting go.

I noticed Pika moved off the edge faster than other characters incidentally from watching Anther vs many people back in the day. I used to see him grab the edge and get so many free hits on people who hovered near the edge, I guess expecting him not to be able to move from it so soon lol.

I'll post the exact frame data in a sec. There's nothing to be alarmed about concerning his planking IIRC.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm sure the videos you've seen are Anther against Lain, aka Plankachu vs. fuzzy little reapers.

 

[DMG]

UPDATE: Some more confirmation concerning MK.

"As an MK main and frame expert, I'm really upset that this exists.


MK perfect Planking (input maps and data)

00 : 00 : dash input from edge
01 : 98 : hold a-stick forward
02 : 96 : initiate FF (a-stick down)
05 : 89 : hold a-stick towards ledge
06 : 90 : MK ledge snap initiates
12 : 80 : flashing "intangible" animation start
30 : 50 : earliest ledge drop input
31 : 48 : ledge drops earliest, input up-air
33 : 45 : earliest up-air hits
44 : 26 : input second up-air / dimensional cape
46 : 23 : optional second up air hits
51 : 15 : flashing "intangible animation end
52 : 13 : no longer inv. (tested and accurate)
57 : 05 : "choice planking option" input
58 : 03 : FAF from second up-air

MK's earliest QC ledgehog initiates "snap" animation frame 6
invincibility does not deprecate after a ledgedrop
MK has 21 frames invincibility from ledge drop input, this is not counting invincibility on the ledge.

As you can see, planking ***** math and the game. You don't actually even need to be CLOSE to frame perfect for this to be unpunishable. Basically you just need to be conscious, ie not in a coma.

Tested several frame perfect options for beating out Planking including desynch ice-blocks. No option works on any of the neutral-neutrals (not the MLG crap stages), except Yoshi's story if MK chooses to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Desynch ice-blocks cannot be arced to even potentially land a hit if MK doesn't literally put himself directly in the path of them. No explosive can hit him from the stage. He has an option to avoid ANY projectile or item drop with over choice reaction time frames to choose the optimal (obvious and easy generally) means of avoiding said projectile/item. No character at the ledge can possibly punish this with any aerial or special due to the combination of transcendent priority, invincibility, and an effectively unlimited recovery.

Even frame-perfect PS to ledgesnap will not allow for punishing MK. Dimensional Cape allows for a safe return to the stage OR to the ledge. He cannot nado back onstage from a FF up-air x2 but he can from a non-FF up-air. Shuttle loop, drill rush, dimensional cape, gliding under the stage, and nair/uair/fair give him an option to respond to any antiplanking measure either with no hits exchanged or more commonly with the opponent losing a stock.

Not even MK can beat out perfect planking MK."

Contribution by Veril.

This changes things slightly. I expected there to be at least 1 somewhat viable option, or PS to edge grab to be at least a road block for MK to hurdle over, but it's not. Most shocking is that MK himself cannot stop it.

 

[Justblaze647]

Soooo...

Ban planking?

 

[Throwback]

Samus main here. Funny, I don't want planking to be banned. Why don't we ban the source of the problem instead?

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Throwback]

that's right, everyone can do peach's sideB in melee, but she's the only one who makes it broken.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Spelt]

peach bomber infinite is usable by one character, how many characters can plank?
oh right, all of them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

peach bomber infinite is usable by one character, how many characters can plank?
oh right, all of them.

NO!
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

FRIGGIN NO!

You show me a way to plank on the ledge with Sonic and I'll give you a friggin medal.

So, assuming this info is correct, can we NOW classify planking as stalling and eliminate the edge grab rule?

NO!

1=/=37

S
Ban Peach in Melee for wall bomb infinite stall

Not at all the same thing, not in theory, nor in practice.
Peach's wall bomb? Easily pointed out and caught and banned.
MK's playing on the ledge. Not easy to point out catch, ban or even monitor.

Ban comparison is bad.

 

[Spelt]

You show me a way to plank on the ledge with Sonic and I'll give you a friggin medal.

uhh jump?
i never said everyone could do it effectively, but that doesn't mean they can't do it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Samus main here. Funny, I don't want planking to be banned. Why don't we ban the source of the problem instead?

Can we also ban Sonic? His HA stall is unbeatable on many stages.

If a technique is broken you must ban the character, not the technique!

BAN SONIC!

NO!

1=/=37

Way to strawman his point. It doesn't matter if other characters are unable to do so - if one character is completely unattackable while planking it clearly classifies as stalling. Stalling is against the rule - whether it is by infinite CG / locks, HA stall or planking is unimportant.

Peach's wall bomb? Easily pointed out and caught and banned.
MK's playing on the ledge. Not easy to point out catch, ban or even monitor.

Ban comparison is bad.

It's very easy to point out.

 

[DMG]

What's the difference between him doing it frame perfect and him not doing it frame perfect? Are you gonna be able to reasonably tell?

Even then, what specifically would encompass stalling? I'm pretty sure most of you would let him grab the edge, and even regrab the edge, and if so then what exactly are you classifying as Stalling? He can do some things, and others not. Which is fine, but now you better define this well and clear or you WILL have problems.

You are gonna have to go the full route, and make any regrab illegal unless something else occurs (Hit the opponent, take damage, perform ledge specific actions inbetween, etc). If you want him to stop planking, without the form of A LGL and simply classify it as stalling, you will have to sacrifice and null some of his regular "Ok" edge play in the process.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Which is fine, but now you better define this well and clear or you WILL have problems.

I don't see how that's the case. The TO can simply define planking as a stalling tactic and ban it. Do you earnestly believe somebody would risk getting DQ'd for stalling just to see how much patience the TO has or how much planking he tolerates? You don't plank on accident - if you plank you do it on purpose and you know that you're planking aka stalling aka breaking a rule.

If your opponent camps the ledge then let him back and he will stop planking. If he doesn't stop then he's quite obviously stalling. Unless he can attack you from the ledge no matter where you are (but MK can't do that).

Don't make things more complicated than you have to.

 

[Laem]

what about the scrooging rule?
allow a regrab once, then the MK must land on stage (or getup, ledge attack, ledgeroll)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There's no evidence that scrooging has ever turned out to be a problem, it's easy to spot and limit and MK isn't the only character who can do it (I heard Pit's glide is even faster). It probably doesn't even eat more than like 5 seconds at best so it's not even that effective a way to stall.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

A really, really stupid/unlikely to work/impossible probably/extremely daft question

Could tethers/Peach Floating right next to the ledge mess up planking at all? I'm thinking of Floating more than tethers because if you tether offstage and it doesn't work...well, you die

Its a really stupid idea but I was wondering if frame experts could judge and say whether Peach could Float by the ledge sweetspot and then let go to grab the ledge that MK has just let go of when he's doing the Uair. She snaps to the ledge and theres no ledge for him to re grab


I'm NOT saying this is a way to beat planking - I'm 99.9% sure it isn't, I'm just asking here since this is all about Planking info. Even if this does work and Peach could grab the ledge, MK can easily mix it up/not let go/get back onstage with his millions of options. I'm asking about Peach because she's the only character who can stay in the same position horizontally in the air for a long(ish) period of time

 

[Limeee]

i think it would be too slow, peach would just get hit out of it, so it wouldn't even affect planking

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Spelt]

Fine, by that logic we would also NEED to ban Sheik because of her chain jacket freeze glitch, instead of creating specific rules targeted at her in order to make her tournament playable. Also ban Zelda since she's the only character that can transform into Sheik.

..............lol......

 

[AvaricePanda]

Everyone agrees that if MK planking is truly unbeatable, it is stalling and is banned, the thing people disagree on is how possible it is to enforce it.

pretty much this.

Also, even if a ban on planking can interfere with MK's normal ledge play, the ledge grab limit interferes with every other character's normal ledge play. It's not any worse, and at least it targets the specific problem (MK's planking).

 

[-Vocal-]

I read everything in pages 1-6 of this thread (at 40 posts per page, so the first 240 posts) and it seemed like no progress was being made. I skipped to this page to see if it moved forward, but this might as well have been page 7. How it is possible to have the same conversation for another 240+ posts? I understand, it's complicated.

Thank you, DMG, for making this thread; up until now I actually didn't know much about planking other than it happens, so this really was informational the way you intended it to be. Great read.

MK fills me with despair. Why must we have to fight over how to limit his power? Why could he just not have existed in the first place? It's something that divides so many people, all because Sakurai decided to make some character super powerful. Brawl's curse

Something must be done about planking. If it is at all possible to create a rule that limits it, then by all means it must be implemented. But if the past 400+ posts are any evidence, it seems as though it is going to be near impossible to find a rule that actually addresses the problem. If that is the case, and literally no way can be found to limit the planking, then it is entirely unfair to allow MK to remain in the game. I realize it is a deeply complicated issue, but how can we rightfully allow him to remain with such a broken technique if we can't find a way to limit it? I wish I could come up with a magic rule to solve this, but I haven't yet, and it seems no one else has either.

 

[Throwback]

I kinda like Gheb's idea - just ban planking. Define planking as playing on the edge without attacking your opponent, subject to the TO's discretion. No-one's going to risk losing a match over it.

 

[-Vocal-]

I kinda like Gheb's idea - just ban planking. Define planking as playing on the edge without attacking your opponent, subject to the TO's discretion. No-one's going to risk losing a match over it.

I agree. In my opinion, a deterrent like that is enough to keep people from even trying to plank. And as someone said earlier, you don't plank accidentally.

EDIT: To clarify, I don't believe that a TO can be in all places at all times. However, I believe that with this type of rule in play, he would not need to be as most people will try to abide by it. If there is a player that chooses not to, the TO isn't likely to be riddled by three other games with the same problem.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Kitamerby]

What if Falco is spamming lasers and you don't feel like dealing with it? :V

Why should we arbitrarily buff Falco in the Falco vs MK matchup?

 

[san.]

I kinda like Gheb's idea - just ban planking. Define planking as playing on the edge without attacking your opponent, subject to the TO's discretion. No-one's going to risk losing a match over it.

I fully disagree with this. Being on the ledge for the purpose of not attacking the opponent gets you DQ'd? Are you serious right now?

 

[Ussi]

... people play on the ledge as a feint so they can recover back to the stage safely too...

 

[AvaricePanda]

it doesn't have to be that loose.

Again, it's at the TOs discretion. Define what planking is explicitly to the TOs (this double U-air or downB thing) so they know what they're looking for. If your opponent is "planking", just pause the match and get someone else, a TO or just someone trustworthy, to watch the match.

Yes the rule kinda sucks but the alternative we have right now arbitrarily debuffs certain character's ledge games (Pit, ROB, Samus, Toon Link, Mario). The explicitly anti-MK-planking rule may arbitrarily buff certain match-ups like Falco vs. MK or arbitrarily debuff MK's ledgegame (because you have to do it with more caution).

however, I agree that MK's planking defined as playing on the ledge without attacking your opponent is dumb.

 

[gallax]

banning planking or scrooging based on one character and affects the rest of the cast also is the worse thing we could possibly do. we would be implementing a surgical change that is aimed and nerfing MK. but most do not seem to realize that it affects chars like pit or gaw. it even affects rob or others who need the edge to fight chars like ddd. if metaknights planking is that unbeatable then a ban on metaknight is warranted, not a LGL that affects the rest of the cast.

 

[AvaricePanda]

or you ban metaknight's planking specifically because, especially now during MLG where a ban on MK would pretty much be lol community split, a ban on specifically planking would cause much less disastrous problems with the community and tournament scene

 

[gallax]

if u ban planking u effectively change quite a few matchups where a char would need to plank some of the match to win. falco becomes considerably worse, same with rob and pit. all because u want to ban planking for metaknight.

 

[AvaricePanda]

wait what.

I'm saying ban planking specifically for MK, no other character.

The LGL limits other character's viable ledge games (Pit, ROB, TL, Mario, Samus), whereas a ban specifically on ONLY METAKNIGHT'S PLANKING limits some of his viable ledge game (for fear of being DQd of not planking).

Stuff can be worked out, but either way it's bad.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[sunshade]

If DMG's info is correct, MK planking is already banned under stalling.

No its not.

Unbeatable =/= unplayable.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[demonictoonlink]

wait what.

I'm saying ban planking specifically for MK, no other character.

The LGL limits other character's viable ledge games (Pit, ROB, TL, Mario, Samus), whereas a ban specifically on ONLY METAKNIGHT'S PLANKING limits some of his viable ledge game (for fear of being DQd of not planking).

Stuff can be worked out, but either way it's bad.

Toon Link...with a viable ledge game? Because he can pull a bomb?

 

[sunshade]

From the BBR ruleset:

"Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling."

If a character is staying invincible/untouchable for an extended period of time, that is EXACTLY what "avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable" is.

No its making the game unwinnable not unplayable.

Lets say we have Olimar fighting Ganondorf on final destination. The Olimar is being played by a robot which makes frame perfect responses to every situation. The computer however will not play offensively for whatever reason. The computer instead has Olimar stand there and wait for ganon to attack so that it can make a perfect counter to whatever ganon does. In this situation no matter what ganon does it results in him taking damage with zero damage to Olimar.

In this situation Olimar is untouchable by ganon. No matter what ganon does it results in him getting hurt and chances are the ganon player will catch on and wont be throwing himself at the super computers Olimar. The match will go to time unless the ganon throws himself at the Olimars impenetrable defense.

But the real question is, is Olimar stalling?

The answer is of course not! He is winning not stalling.

The same goes for Metaknights planking. If we are going to say that Metaknight planking is stalling then guess what? Olimar standing on Final destination is also stalling.

This thread is nothing but objective and mathematical proof that metaknight is broken.

Which then prompts the question, do we put in arbitrary rules to keep metaknight in the game so that he can continue to dominate or do we ban him?

 

[AvaricePanda]

Toon Link...with a viable ledge game? Because he can pull a bomb?

I say dumb things a lot lol. Probably not ledge game per-se, but I have played Toon Links who have used probably more than 35 ledgegrabs due to tether/bomb whatevers. Maybe it's not good, but they've done it, so I just threw him in as an example.

stuff

You're saying that MK's planking = Olimar standing on Final Destination.

There are two huge differences/problems with your example.

1) One is character specific. One is not. Even if I take what you say to be true about Olimar, it only works on Ganondorf and Ganondorf is a really bad character. MK's planking works on everyone.

2) With MK's planking, you're inputting set commands which makes it so you are untouchable, and you have good amounts of time to react to those special things like grenades very feasibly. With Olimar vs. Ganondorf on FD, Olimar is constantly in a good position, but like every character in this game he can only choose one option at a time. His reaction window for punishing EVERYTHING isn't as lenient or as realistic for a human, IIRC.

MK can repeatedly do an input and you CAN NOT HIT HIM.

Olimar can stand on FD to zone and use a few options to beat all of Ganondorf's. He still can only do one thing at a time, and everybody not named Ganondorf can easily hit him.

Masky summed up the problem best IMO.