Pikachu: A discussion

[soap]

lol long story actually...

so my dubs partner back in the day (named brian) and i were about to go to our first tournament (AZone). when we were getting ready in the morning to head out, we started talking about what our tags should be. we were thinking about just being shock and shine, cuz i was pikachu and he was fox (yeah, lame, i know lol)

but we were like "man, those names seem like they'll be to common. we gotta think about something else, but what?"

we started putting on our deodorants. go figure... i was using axe, and he was using tag. so we were like... let's make our names axe and tag! heck yeah!

then we decided that our team name would be the B.O. Busters lmao

thats pretty legit.

i was making my smashboards account and had just watched fight club.

 

[AXE 09]

ok good ****.

So if not sweet spotting the edge, pikachu does have less landing lag when he goes into a falling motion first?

and yea ive done a few up B kills. CAN you ledge cancel the up b while landing or is it just as ur falling even a short distance with forward momentum?

Also I take it the jc grab is better and he doesnt really have a dash attack cancel grab right?

and Ill go look at some vids. cuz I could use a few new tricks. but I was wrecking a few of my friends when they played ff. Hopefully ill start recording soon and put up some matches.

i couldn't have said it better myself lol.

i don't THINK you have to be falling to edge cancel it, but i'm not too sure. i'll test that out too. i think you can just up-b across the floor without even leaving the ground and still edge cancel it. i dunno, i'll test it.

and you DEFINATELY wanna jump cancel your grabs. if you don't, it sux so horribly haha. every character can dash attack cancel (i think), but it's not a good idea to do that with pikachu haha.

vectorman's making a combo video for me (thank you so much tim you freakin rock!!!) and there'll be some up-b stuff in there... so maybe you could learn some stuff from that lol. i hope

Soap: i only saw fight club once, and i didn't even watch the whole thing =( i gotta get that movie lol

 

[N64]

Pretty much everything axe said.

I don't think fair is a true combo, but it can still work if the opponent doesn't have anything to prevent the grab after the fair (i.e. a quick nair or shine or something). The main issue is fair can be CC'd, relatively easily DI'd out of (especially for floaties), or often just spaced with a wd back -> punish.

 

[KAOSTAR]

As far as fair, Ive noticed that sometimes they DI up and are in the air. When this seems to happen the grab combo seems more certain because most characters dont have an aerial that will come out that fast from mashing A, z, etc

and I think that if one does start its usually it stops when they hit the ground and they miss the l cancel.

Ill look into the up B canceling from the ground as well.

 

[AXE 09]

so i did some testing today

it turns out that you CANNOT edgecancel your up b if you do it strait across the floor. for some reason it just won't let you. i tried for like half an hour, and it just wouldn't do it. sometimes i would like stop on the edge of the stage, then somehow fall of and be in my falling animation where i can't do anything. i guess it thinks you used your up b off the stage... weird. anyways, i guess you can only edge cancel your up b if you fall, even if it's just a very small distance...

as for forward air, the only thing that i found to be a TRUE combo (i tried everything in training mode) was if you shffl a forward air, then jab (little headbut thing lol). that's a true combo. i tried everything else, even a rising uair, and it wouldn't work. i couldn't tell if it was a true combo with a grab though. obviously, training mode wouldn't show that. so... not too sure haha.

one more thing...

i learned that the only move that pikachu has that has set knockback is his forward air. not even his up-b or his jab has set knockback lol. pretty interesting. at a high %, your up b can knock people suprisingly far away lol. it's hilarious

 

[KAOSTAR]

so i did some testing today

it turns out that you CANNOT edgecancel your up b if you do it strait across the floor. for some reason it just won't let you. i tried for like half an hour, and it just wouldn't do it. sometimes i would like stop on the edge of the stage, then somehow fall of and be in my falling animation where i can't do anything. i guess it thinks you used your up b off the stage... weird. anyways, i guess you can only edge cancel your up b if you fall, even if it's just a very small distance...

as for forward air, the only thing that i found to be a TRUE combo (i tried everything in training mode) was if you shffl a forward air, then jab (little headbut thing lol). that's a true combo. i tried everything else, even a rising uair, and it wouldn't work. i couldn't tell if it was a true combo with a grab though. obviously, training mode wouldn't show that. so... not too sure haha.

one more thing...

i learned that the only move that pikachu has that has set knockback is his forward air. not even his up-b or his jab has set knockback lol. pretty interesting. at a high %, your up b can knock people suprisingly far away lol. it's hilarious

REally, hmmm thats interesting about the set knockbacks.

BUT I did find that you could ledge cancel the up b from the ground. I was able to do it on stadium left side(didnt try anywhere else). What you do is find the spot inbetween the yellow arrows and that black line.

You hit that spot right up b from there. I did a single and ledge canceled it and did another single back or jumped right away.

Im pretty sure I didnt do it wrong. Try it out and let me know what you think. altho I did have the same problem where i never landed and died a few times.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Correction!

Ok, So I wanted to double check my findings before I left them at that.

The up+B, is really teeter canceled because the move itself does not push it over the edge[at least from the ground].

Stand on the farthest left arrow, and the tip of the triangle should be showing.

Up+B from there and you should teeter. If you hold left you will go off and basically ledge cancel.

Edit:I tried again and you can up+B right to the edge from the ground with 0 lag without teetering as well if the spacing is perfect.

 

[AXE 09]

seriously? cuz i experimented with it for quite some time, and no matter how hard i tried, i could not edge cancel if you do it across the floor. sometimes, i would do it once across the floor, and land where i'm ALMOST off the edge. pika would stop, and have that SUPER long lag as when you up b to the floor, then slide off. it's kinda like it edge cancels, but it doesn't think you did. it'll think you just up-b'd off the edge, so you just fall to your death. i dunno, i wanna make a video for it or something cuz it's hard to explain.

are you sure that when you're pushing up, you're not jumping? try holding up, so you jump first, then land. keep holding up. THEN press B, so you're sure to do it without jumping. or maybe i'm just getting the wrong idea. i dunno. i suck at explaining things lmao

 

[KAOSTAR]

Haha no I completely understand. Thats the animation I was talking about when I died a few times.

Just to be sure I did actually hold up first like I was gonna tilt, but I hit B instead.

Im 100% sure that I went straight to the ledge, from that arrow I described-without jumping or having any sort of falling animation.

In fact if you do it once, you can up+B back to the same arrow and then do it again.

The spot is on at arrow that points away from the ledge but its the closest to the ledge on stadium.

Ive done it where pika teeters, and where he just ends standing straight up. 0 lag from the ground without falling off the edge or teetoring as well.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDF7VX1yi_0 is that what your talking about? for the edge cancel thing or what becaus eI,m confused by what you mean. yeah he can stop at the egde and do the wobble thing

 

[AXE 09]

well no, not exactly lol

what you did was jump a very small distance from the ground and up-b horizontally, so when you land, it doesn't have much lag. mewtwo's up-b works the same way. pikachu's can do it too, but pikachu's has more lag when he lands than mewtwo or pichu. if you were to up-b across the floor without jumping, even with pichu or mewtwo, you'll notice a lot more lag. i was trying to see if you could cancel that lag

i know you can edge cancel it if you're in the air, even slightly, just like in 0:31 and 0:33 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPxYgKJAYFA

but when i try to up-b across the floor and edgecancel it, it doesn't work. i get the same results as 4:55 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8GKjMDSu8s&feature=channel_page (silent spectre *****!)

just try it. make sure you don't jump when you press up to do your up-b. i'd say that i'm 100% sure that you can't edge cancel it, but koastar got different results.

also, about the forward air that i said earlier, it turns out that a jab isn't the only true combo you can get. i kept messing with it, and i've gotten forward tilt to hit and make it a true combo. so heck yeah lol


EDIT: after a bit of thinking, i suspected that you and i have different versions of the games, so i switched from 1.2 to 1.1, and i still got the same results, so i don't think it's dependent on the version of the game either...

 

[soap]

some pikachus in the smash lab i see

 

[wool]

I just spent around 30 mins trying and I absolutely could not edgecancel it w/o jumping (AKA got same results as AXE).

BTW are there any major differences between the different versions of melee (excluding pal)? Like would it affect my tournament play if I used 1.1 and we played with 1.2 in a tourny? this probably sounds like a stupid question, but im now kind of concerned haha.

 

[AXE 09]

well personally... concerning pikachu, i think 1.1 or 1.0 would be the best, because nobody can smash DI out of pikachu's downsmash. that's... pretty much the only thing haha. cuz in V. 1.2, if you downsmash someone and they keep mashing up, they'll get out of your downsmash. same goes for things like young link's up-b. that's pretty much the only "major" difference, and it's not even that major cuz most players won't smash DI out of your downsmash lol

 

[`DNS`]

where do you have to hit with the uair to 'tail spike' them forwards? it seems to almost always hit backwards

 

[N64]

where do you have to hit with the uair to 'tail spike' them forwards? it seems to almost always hit backwards

Uair has 4 hitboxes. They come out at seperate times and seperate positions during the uair animation. They follow the swinging of his tail. First hitbox is behind pika, this knocks them upwards. Second hitbox is above and behind pika, this 'spikes' them backwards. Third hitbox is above and in front of pika, this 'spikes' them forwards. Last hitbox is in front of pika, this knocks them very slightly up and behind pika.

In your case, it seems you need to try to hit them very slightly later (start the uair just a bit earlier) to get the forward spike.

 

[`DNS`]

Uair has 4 hitboxes. They come out at seperate times and seperate positions during the uair animation. They follow the swinging of his tail. First hitbox is behind pika, this knocks them upwards. Second hitbox is above and behind pika, this 'spikes' them backwards. Third hitbox is above and in front of pika, this 'spikes' them forwards. Last hitbox is in front of pika, this knocks them very slightly up and behind pika.

In your case, it seems you need to try to hit them very slightly later (start the uair just a bit earlier) to get the forward spike.

thanks a bunch :D

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

on the up-b thing, the only way to do it on the ground it to end on something esle or be on a large platfrom. Really the lag for pikachu is only 4 frames pichu 1 frame and it m2's is longer.

The fair thing I once thought you could get a pillar tpye thing going like fair utilt fair etc. I never got it to perfect combo as pichu(2 frames of lag less) but everything worked like fair comboed into uptilt sometimes and up-fair worked most of the time. most d-tilt could works to which would be much more useful

 

[wool]

well personally... concerning pikachu, i think 1.1 or 1.0 would be the best, because nobody can smash DI out of pikachu's downsmash. that's... pretty much the only thing haha. cuz in V. 1.2, if you downsmash someone and they keep mashing up, they'll get out of your downsmash. same goes for things like young link's up-b. that's pretty much the only "major" difference, and it's not even that major cuz most players won't smash DI out of your downsmash lol

Oh ok thanks man. I didn't know that

 

[KAOSTAR]

If nobody else can do it then its most likely I jumped a very very short distance off the ground.

If thats what it is then thats more practical anyway and just as good.

However it was done it has 0 lag and you can land in a shield.

My guess is that I must have jumped first unnoticeably.

 

[AXE 09]

when you did it, did you land near the edge? so maybe you edgecancelled it and shielded, cuz you know, you can edgecancel and not fall off the edge if you're facing toward the edge. man, i wish we could all just like... record what's going on and post it up. a visual would be so much more awesome

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea to edge cancel you dont have to go off. But I ended by the edge and edge canceled into a shield or nair or another up B.

Im just gonna go with I jumped barely off the ground upB into an edge cancel

Cuz either way Thats what I would do if I wanted to edge cancel an upB into something because I think everyones 100 sure that works.


Anyone tried to fair into uptilt or uair for a combo?

 

[N64]

Yes and yes. Fair utilt doesn't really work often, it is far too slow to combo but it can catch people who try to jump or grab after the fair. Fair uair works both on the ground and in the air though.

 

[wool]

Yes and yes. Fair utilt doesn't really work often, it is far too slow to combo but it can catch people who try to jump or grab after the fair. Fair uair works both on the ground and in the air though.

This.
I was in a habit of fair-ing then utilt-ing everytime, but it would almost never work since like N64 said utilt was too slow. I usually do fair -> dtilt if they are on the ground now. It seems like fair -> ftilt is slower than fair -> dtilt. I'm not positive about this though.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

f-tilt is 1 frame faster, but d-tilt is just like a shine it just feels smoother, but yeah d-tilt is better, fair upair works?
(fair uptilt works better with pichu)Maybe if you fair a sheild you meant be able to beat them to the grab, pichu can but you must be fast


um I geuss they are to slow to do anything about fair-upair, because I,ve tested in 1/4 speed on about everyone with fair-upair and fair nair(1 frame faster) it doesn't combo but maybe their not fast

 

[wool]

Yeah I got into the habit of fair->utilt from playing Pichu so much
But Pika is way cooler now IMO

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

fun fact there is a small sourspot of up-tilt for pikachu, on the very tip it makes the different of about 12% in when you can kill j-puff on yoshi story and I,ve checked many times and it decayed all the way.

pichu has no sourspots. But pika sucks why play as pichu(just kidding axe could most likely beat me)

 

[soap]

carzy i tried practicing pichu

his upb feels so slow and ********, and u take damage doing it.

i like to do alot of useless upb tricks in between stocks, and i dont wanna take damage.....

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yes and yes. Fair utilt doesn't really work often, it is far too slow to combo but it can catch people who try to jump or grab after the fair. Fair uair works both on the ground and in the air though.

so fair uair, combos in practice mode, or just works well enough to use. and Im wondering mainly from the ground?

fun fact there is a small sourspot of t-tilt for pikachu, on the very tip it makes the different of about 12% in when you can kill j-puff on yoshi story and I,ve checked many times and it decayed all the way.

pichu has no sourspots. But pika sucks why play as pichu(just kidding axe could most likely beat me)

t-tilt,diff of 12% I dont really understand what you are saying, can you explain please.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Yeah that's pichu's biggest flaws he doesn't have any mutli shines,fast wavedashing,charge,or any show off things in between stocks. but he is the greatest taunt ever, everything about him is a taunt.

I tryed pikachu his up-B sweetspot is so easy vs pichu's about 3 times larger, so as far as I care pichu's is harder


Sorry I meant up-tilt

 

[AXE 09]

i've tried comboing with fair to rising uair, and it wouldn't work, no matter how hard i tried, but just because it's not a "true" combo doesn't mean that you shouldn't use it

lol insane crazy guy, you're pretty awesome. i've tried pichu too, and for some reason, i just can't use him at all o.O

 

[KAOSTAR]

I also cant use pichu.

@axe, yea I use the fair to uair still. I was just wondering if it comboed. Good to know for sure so I can avoid punishes if they somehow catch on lol.

One thing tho, isnt pichus slow walk the cutest thing you've ever seen? I think the answer is yess!!

 

[tdk_Samurai]

kaostar, your wrong, pichus crouch is.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I dont know man, the slow walk is pretty cute, and ur opponent doesnt feel threatened as you use it to space your next attack.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

ALl I know is it's amazing for mindgames and pikachu wishs he could be that cute.

Why does everyone think i,m awesome i,m trying to quit and why a pikachu player I main the ice climbers after all.

You have to be CARZZY to play as pichu and sane to play as pikachu I geuss

 

[AlcyoNite]

I hope every pikachu main has seen this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riFcU3PJ5Ww&feature=sub

 

[AXE 09]

hahaha i tried so hard at that tourney! you have no idea, i really really wanted to win lol.

how are all my pika buddies? did everyone die? come back to life!!!

 

[-Chad-]

I am very much so alive, I just don't participate in the forums much =x

I placed 13th at tipped off 5 though, not bad I'd say.

 

[N64]

Alive.

I went to SNES and got 9th. Take that Chad!

also good stuff axe, was very enjoyable to watch as always. Wobbles is so goood heh.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Axe I want to MM your Pikachuuuuuu

I will chain grab you gently