Phoenix Brawl! March 13th, 2010 (***Port Coquitlam, BC)

[Asa]

it doesn't seem like you can be convinced
if you host a tournament with random brackets we will probably still come
do it

 

[Ic0nic]

it doesn't seem like you can be convinced
if you host a tournament with random brackets we will probably still come
do it

If someone can convince me that seeding will result in an equal chance for everyone to get to the money, I'll agree with the system. I'll still play twos, and never turn down a chance to play with other people in friendlies or MM, but putting the same amount into the pot as someone else and them having a better chance just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Ic0nic]

Hehe, I would foresee a lot of people skipping out on a random bracket tournament, just based on the attitude toward them.

 

[Igcoris]

iconic, i do see your point, but getting double eliminated by a stacked bracket is gay as hell. it doesn't really help 'cause the outcome will always be determined by who is better, but seriously.

it just gives everyone a fairer chance at placing higher, which is how you can determine how well a player is doing and how good he is.

 

[Ic0nic]

Note: above post is 100% different from what it originally was.

From my other post:

" If the bracket draws against me, so be it, I'm going to have to face top people if my intent is to win. "

 

[Igcoris]

if you really wanna be butt******, then so be it. others don't like getting that kind of **** so early in the tournament. i don't really understand your way of thinking, and further discussion would make it even worse.

 

[Ic0nic]

if you really wanna be butt******, then so be it. others don't like getting that kind of **** so early in the tournament. i don't really understand your way of thinking, and further discussion would make it even worse.

Alright, this is where I take exception. I don't agree and so I wont enter, I don't understand how that makes me butt***** whatever the hell that's supposed to be. Have you never had a differing opinion than someone?

Jesus Christ, if you're too childish to have a dialogue on something then I really suggest you don't have input in the first place. I was asked for my reasoning why I'm not interested in a seeded tournament, so I presented my reasoning with no expectation of change. You're failure to engage what I've said and choice to instead attack me personally shows you really never made any attempt to understand what I posted.

 

[Igcoris]

i said i can see why you don't agree with seeding -- because you don't see how it'll change the outcome, right?

i simply retook your statement of " If the bracket draws against me, so be it, I'm going to have to face top people if my intent is to win. " and took it to you harder because frankly, that's not how a player who is attending tournaments and hopes to improve (i hope you're trying to improve) should think. imo, some of the best matches come from proper seeding ie someone who's closer to your skill level. if you really don't want to play some good games, well, i guess you're that kind of person. tournaments are actually a really fun experience, unless you get a stacked winners/losers bracket, and end up getting eliminated in 2 tournament matches due to IMPROPER seeding. (i'm sounding like a broken record, but i have to restate this).

i didn't really want to present a logical argument 'cause your prior posts made you come off as stubborn and likely not to change your view on seeding.

 

[Igcoris]

in all honesty though, pools are nothing more than a few more friendlies (unless it's pools to get into the brackets). i don't see why you absolutely refuse to enter singles just because of pools. that type of stubbornness strikes a nerve of mine and makes me pretty annoyed.

 

[Ic0nic]

i said i can see why you don't agree with seeding -- because you don't see how it'll change the outcome, right?

i simply retook your statement of " If the bracket draws against me, so be it, I'm going to have to face top people if my intent is to win. " and took it to you harder because frankly, that's not how a player who is attending tournaments and hopes to improve (i hope you're trying to improve) should think. imo, some of the best matches come from proper seeding ie someone who's closer to your skill level. if you really don't want to play some good games, well, i guess you're that kind of person. tournaments are actually a really fun experience, unless you get a stacked winners/losers bracket, and end up getting eliminated in 2 tournament matches due to IMPROPER seeding. (i'm sounding like a broken record, but i have to restate this).

i didn't really want to present a logical argument 'cause your prior posts made you come off as stubborn and likely not to change your view on seeding.

"i said i can see why you don't agree with seeding -- because you don't see how it'll change the outcome, right?"

That's not what I said. I said seeding will effect the outcome, or at least gives an innate advantage to some.

"i simply retook your statement of " If the bracket draws against me, so be it, I'm going to have to face top people if my intent is to win. " and took it to you harder because frankly, that's not how a player who is attending tournaments and hopes to improve (i hope you're trying to improve) should think. imo, some of the best matches come from proper seeding ie someone who's closer to your skill level. "

I don't see the actual tournament as a place to improve, nor having close matches as the best way to impove(learn a lot more getting beat than winning imo).

"if you really don't want to play some good games, well, i guess you're that kind of person. tournaments are actually a really fun experience, "

I really don't understand how you infer this from anything I've said.

"unless you get a stacked winners/losers bracket, and end up getting eliminated in 2 tournament matches due to IMPROPER seeding. (i'm sounding like a broken record, but i have to restate this)."

I think that someone getting matched up against a top seed in the first round and facing elimination in every single subsequent game sucks just as bad as a top person getting matched with another top person. The prospect of losing in two games really doesn't bother me.

"i don't see why you absolutely refuse to enter singles just because of pools. that type of stubbornness strikes a nerve of mine and makes me pretty annoyed."

I've said that if someone can explain to me how seeding makes it equally possible for all players to get faced against an easier opponent or a harder one, or miss getting a bye. I'll change my opinion. I have no emotional attachment to my position, which you clearly do, hence your feeling of annoyance. But in the end, neither my not entering singles, nor my reasoning should affect you in the slightest.

edit: missed a word

 

[Igcoris]

seeding will not effect the final outcome because the best will always win.

pools take the wins and losses of a person and gives them a bracket according to their skill. the player with the most wins will have an easy to hard bracket (meaning that top players will not fight each other until later), and the player with more losses will have a hard to easy/medium, then hard bracket (meaning noobs usually get a harder bracket first, but ease their way into losers, then begin to fight harder opponents because they lost later in the winner's bracket). pools make it so that no one gets royally f'd in both sides of the bracket. not everyone will get an easy opponent, but everyone will get a hard opponent at some point.

sorry about the rash posting. seriously, though, not entering singles just because of pools is a poor excuse for one who is trying to improve.

to your edit: I think that someone getting matched up against a top seed in the first round and facing elimination in every single subsequent game sucks just as bad as a top person getting matched with another top person. --that's what seeding is for!

 

[corbinvenida]

is pikachu really a squirrel?

 

[Ic0nic]

seeding will not effect the final outcome because the best will always win.

pools take the wins and losses of a person and gives them a bracket according to their skill. the player with the most wins will have an easy to hard bracket (meaning that top players will not fight each other until later), and the player with more losses will have a hard to easy/medium, then hard bracket (meaning noobs usually get a harder bracket first, but ease their way into losers, then begin to fight harder opponents because they lost later in the winner's bracket). pools make it so that no one gets royally f'd in both sides of the bracket. not everyone will get an easy opponent, but everyone will get a hard opponent at some point.

sorry about the rash posting. seriously, though, not entering singles just because of pools is a poor excuse for one who is trying to improve.

to your edit: I think that someone getting matched up against a top seed in the first round and facing elimination in every single subsequent game sucks just as bad as a top person getting matched with another top person. --that's what seeding is for!

My edit only added one word, which caused a sentence to not make sense.

I understand how the seeding process works, and don't need it explained.

throwing 15 dollars away when I know I have lesser chance(via seeding) of (and this is the key part) winning still doesn't make sense to me. improvement comes from getting my *** kicked and trying hard in all my games, one or two games in a tournament isn't a big deal to me.

I can still have fun, I can still impove, competing in the tournament and getting better/having fun aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Ic0nic]

is pikachu really a squirrel?

Shockmouse!

 

[Igcoris]

well, you edited the sentence to make sense, so i thought i should add that in.

anyways, proper seeding doesn't give you any less of a chance of winning than random seeding. i'm not sure if you know exactly how it works. if you're seeded badly, you get a high/top seed as your first opponent. most likely the person you meet in loser's will also have a bad seed (due to his low skill level) and you have to fight him in 1st round losers. i'm not sure how that gives you a lesser chance of winning. random seeding could stack against you, but proper seeding doesn't do that.

and to add to your last statement: competing in tournament is a whole different level of mentality than friendlies. i'm not sure if you've noticed, but many people choke in tournaments and play even worse because of all of the pressure. that feeling gradually exits through tournament experience.

 

[Ic0nic]

well, you edited the sentence to make sense, so i thought i should add that in.

anyways, proper seeding doesn't give you any less of a chance of winning than random seeding. i'm not sure if you know exactly how it works. if you're seeded badly, you get a high/top seed as your first opponent. most likely the person you meet in loser's will also have a bad seed (due to his low skill level) and you have to fight him in 1st round losers. i'm not sure how that gives you a lesser chance of winning. random seeding could stack against you, but proper seeding doesn't do that.

and to add to your last statement: competing in tournament is a whole different level of mentality than friendlies. i'm not sure if you've noticed, but many people choke in tournaments and play even worse because of all of the pressure. that feeling gradually exits through tournament experience.

Getting an easier first match not only puts you further into the winners bracket, but further into the losers should you eventually lose. As a top seed you're also usually given a bye, whereas others don't get this luxury. Why should it be the top players who start off with this advantage? It comes down to the fact that if you're not a top seed, your chance of winning goes down. This may not necessarily effect the overall outcome, but it influences it without a doubt.

This argument is getting really cyclical, nothing posted has convinced me that seeding doesn't result in the top seeds having better shot at winning. All thats resulted in this argument is total derailment of a thread over something that's really a non-issue. Unless I'm presented with something new, or goaded with obnoxious comments, I'm going to refrain from posting more.

If anyone wishes me to clarify anything I've said in any of my posts, feel free to PM me. But lets keep this thread clear for the actual tournament discussion.

 

[Ic0nic]

By the way TO, is there any chance we can get the random, random banned stages only tournament going at this one? Was supposed to happen at the last one but time ran out before it could happen.

 

[Igcoris]

editing all of my posts out...

 

[Ic0nic]

okay, you're only getting a reply because of the obnoxious "use your head" comment. I've clearly thought this out, don't patronize me.

So, first I play a set of games where I usually don't have another top player to compete against, this earns me an advantage over others?

The objective of a tournament should be to be fair to all players, chance is fair. Seeding to produce a better losers bracket doesn't really concern someone who's main objective is to win. If the good players will still win, why should they care when they face eachother?

Imagine if in international sports, they separated the pools, keeping the top nations in separate groups? Could you imagine the outrage? Sometimes you draw a tough group, even in the highest level of competition with well knowledge over who's more likely to come on top.

 

[Igcoris]

::::::::

 

[Ic0nic]

the example you used isn't very good.last time i checked, sports don't have a loser's bracket. and yo, in the NBA/MLB/NHL whatever sport you wanna name, they use seeding. guess what? the top seed fights the lowest seed in the playoffs.

chance is not fair. luck is not fair, neither is bad luck.

I said international sports.

NBA MLB and NHL are spectator leagues, the purpose of seeding in those to create entertainment and draw viewers. Many international sports do have a losers bracket, but the highest you can get is 3rd.


edit:
Just because something has been used in smash for a long time, isn't evidence to support it. Arguments just don't work like that.

 

[Igcoris]

:::::

 

[Igcoris]

wow i'm a freakin' blind idiot. jake explained it all along and you still don't get it. you're either extremely new to smash, or you'd be trollin' at best.

 

[~Firefly~]

=/

I've already explained and given examples of why random pools and brackets fail, and yet you still seem to think random is more fair? How is being guaranteed to have one top player in your pools worse than randomly getting two top players in your pool and getting a lower seed as a result? The goal of seeding is to create pools/brackets to be as balanced as possible in a way that gives everybody a chance at performing well. Seperating top players into seperate pools is the only way to create balanced pools. If you have a better way (random does NOT create balanced pools), by all means, share it with us.

Keep in mind that this can go both ways. A top player can get a random pool made up of nothing but bottom-level players, thus, giving him an even easier time. Pools are created to have an equal distribution of skill in each one, and a top player has very few opponents that are better than them anyway.

 

[unityole]

improvement comes from getting my *** kicked and trying hard in all my games, one or two games in a tournament isn't a big deal to me.

that whole sentence is false =/
1. practice in training mode
2. watch online vids
3. that is because u havent seen enough, know that fact u said just now doesnt apply to everyone. there are players that play their best when something is on the line and during tournament play. ive seen people purposely lose in pools and then play their hardest in bracket just to catch opposite offguard, theres tons of differences if u seeded randomly than through pools, u r the one dont understand ****.

and u saying it aint fair for u, its also unfair for the best players to knock each other out.

laugh at you saying how "Just because something has been used in smash for a long time, isn't evidence to support it. Arguments just don't work like that." lmao

heres a cruel fact. if u suck at smash, no one wants to watch you play the boring games therefore they get rid of all the bad first and keep the good players. ie get rid of YOU =) and then everyone will watch good matches so finals are more exciting to watch. SO MY POINT IS, THEY DONT CARE IF YOU HAVE ADVANTAGE AT BEGINNING IF SEEDED RANDOMLY, THEY WANT U TO BE AT A DISAVANTAGE.

 

[unityole]

ohhh heres a good one ic0nic, if u happened to be good at smash 64 and u entered the 64 tournament, this is what im going to do for both random seeding and pool seeding.

random seeded against me, u lose and pool seeded NOT against me u stay in for 1 more round. and then the 2nd round random seeded u went to losers, i will lose my 3rd match and go to the loser and take u out. if this is pool seeded and u went further, i will knock u out, then go to losers and knock u out again.

now u tell me which one is more fair

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Wow... spending the entire night arguing over pools?

How about I put my opinion on the pools (advantages and disadvantages of both).

Well, first off, although random pools may end up being fair, they generally have unequal brackets. So, say one bracket has the top three players, while another bracket doesn't have many good players. It's not fair for a player ending up ranked last in one bracket if he would have come in 1st no problem in the other bracket. The way to fix this is by seeding. This makes all the pools even. I see what you mean by "better people have an easier tourney because they don't play each other until late in the tourney", but... lets put it this way:

If a bracket were seeded perfectly, we would get a result of 1/2/3/4/5 etc. in each pool. In perfectly seeded pools, switching 1st from one pool with 1st from another pool will generally keep both players in first, while switching two 3rds will generally keep both players in 3rd (character matchups may end up affecting the pools a bit, like one position). So therefore, the guy who got 3rd place in one pool would have gotten 3rd place no matter what pool he has.

If the brackets are random, someone who had a bracket filled with the best players and got last in one pool may have been able to get 2nd in another pool. Thus, it's unfair for this person to be last, if he would have done better. Similarly, the person who got 2nd in a different pool and has to play someone from the stacked pool will have a hard matchup off the start, even though he came in 2nd. So for these two people, the bracket is unfair.

Trust me, I've mis-seeded a bracket once, which ended up having one of the best players lose his first two matches due to playing against two of the best in the winner's then loser's. He should have gotten like 5th, but instead got like 9th or 13th due to the bad bracket.

I used to think exactly the way you do, and got mad when I was seeded low against the higher players for melee, but the more I played in tourneys, the more I realized that seeding was needed (as random had flaws), and I didn't mind being ranked low in brackets.

As for the international sporting events... well, if you look at international hockey (olympics, world cup, world juniors, etc.), they always start with pools of 4, and each pool is always seeded (as in, the top 4 teams are split evenly between the pools... I have yet to see Canada, US, and Russia all in the same pool). I don't know if they do this for all sports, but hockey does it, so there's an example of seeded pools. Tennis, where it's a single bracket tournament with no pools, is seeded such that the 1st and 2nd are on opposite sides of the bracket, and the rest of the seeds placed accordingly such that the better players face each other late in the bracket.

Well, that said, seeded brackets tend to have better results than random pools.

As for entering the tournament, no one is stopping you from not entering. If you don't want to enter, that's your choice. There's no rule stating that you must enter every tourney, so... if you wanted to, just come for friendlies (and maybe money matches). You don't need a reason not to enter, so don't worry about it.

 

[smash mash]

wow..so much discussion about pools....over all i think its fun...pretty much the only reason why i play smash is cause its fun...if i win, i win...if i lose, i lose...as long as i enjoyed all my matches and know i tried my best...it doesn't really matter if your low rank or high rank...theirs no reason to get upset about losing, if you really wanna win and do better...just get determined to improve for the next tourney, its pretty much the reason why they exist in the first place...
for example i had fun at the tourney in abbot but I AM going to beat bundtcake and breez next time fo sho!! :D it just makes it more exciting saying that...haha
and i know LFL really wants to take me out next time as well...hehe..which i will also be watching out for..

 

[LFL]

I was so happy to take you to game 3 last stock when you ***** me at overture 2 weeks prior!

 

[ikool]

wow..so much discussion about pools....over all i think its fun...pretty much the only reason why i play smash is cause its fun...if i win, i win...if i lose, i lose...as long as i enjoyed all my matches and know i tried my best...

You are my kinda guy. I could have cared less about what happened at the tournament. I went to play some smash with the community. I got knocked out second round in singles and first
round in doubles, but I had a blast...

Except for the 2 hour transit home. Sheez gets scary around that time of night... o.o

 

[Grimice]

LOL i havent updated myself on this thread for a while and have to say ive never laughed so hard at some of the childish things people do over a game... pools are done at all tournys, they where done at genesis, they where done at pound. its the best way to ensure that everyone has a chance and the better you do in pools puts you in a better situiation in the bracket. its to ensure people like say m2k and ally dont play each other first round of brackets. and its not fair to people like them, if pools are not done and they do have to play first round.

otherwise, hola, hype, im excited to come back from texas and head to this tourny. watch out, tho im looking at taking that #1 spot on the PR =P

 

[smash mash]

I was so happy to take you to game 3 last stock when you ***** me at overture 2 weeks prior!

yea u played really well with your marth...its always fun to play against a good marth with MK... since they both are my main...for next time ill play u marth dittos!

 

[smash mash]

You are my kinda guy. I could have cared less about what happened at the tournament. I went to play some smash with the community. I got knocked out second round in singles and first
round in doubles, but I had a blast...

Except for the 2 hour transit home. Sheez gets scary around that time of night... o.o

thnx...but yea its just how it is man...gotta have a good time...glad to hear you had fun as well..

 

[Blue Yoshi]

The only thing that matters in a tournament is getting 1st place. Otherwise, you'll be forever known as the guy who did not get 1st place.

lol jk

I see tournaments as a way to see how I rank against other players. Sure, I'm playing my best and trying to get 1st, but if I end up in 5th, then there simply were 4 better people then me at the tourney.

LOL i havent updated myself on this thread for a while and have to say ive never laughed so hard at some of the childish things people do over a game... pools are done at all tournys, they where done at genesis, they where done at pound. its the best way to ensure that everyone has a chance and the better you do in pools puts you in a better situiation in the bracket. its to ensure people like say m2k and ally dont play each other first round of brackets. and its not fair to people like them, if pools are not done and they do have to play first round.

otherwise, hola, hype, im excited to come back from texas and head to this tourny. watch out, tho im looking at taking that #1 spot on the PR =P

Well... that means you'll have to stop rolling into my 9s. Seriously, you do all the work for me. Friendly trash talk ftw

 

[bundtcake]

The only thing that matters in a tournament is getting 1st place. Otherwise, you'll be forever known as the guy who did not get 1st place.

Totally agreed, guy who did not get 1st place! ;D

 

[Asa]

lol shieet

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Well, at least we agree on something, guy who did not... uh, wait a minute... *thinks for 5 minutes*... oh.

*sniff* Brian's a meanie!

 

[smash mash]

lol...true first place winner at a tourney would be the player everyone looks forward to in defeating at a next tournament...but like i said that's what makes it more exciting...if there wasn't any challenge or any attempt to surpass another player then there really wouldn't be any meaning for tournaments...

 

[smash mash]

Hey anybody wanna smash today with blunted_object and me?? add me on msn latinvpa@hotmail.com remember i live right by metrotown..and royal oak skytrain station

 

[breez]

wow..so much discussion about pools....over all i think its fun...pretty much the only reason why i play smash is cause its fun...if i win, i win...if i lose, i lose...as long as i enjoyed all my matches and know i tried my best...it doesn't really matter if your low rank or high rank...theirs no reason to get upset about losing, if you really wanna win and do better...just get determined to improve for the next tourney, its pretty much the reason why they exist in the first place...

This @ Iconic.

The final point of going to tournies should be having fun. If you have fun - attend. If you don't - do not.

Personally I see the problems with seeding and without seeding. Neither system is perfect, however I don't personally see a large advantage being handed out with seeing. I really really don't want it to be the basis behind you coming or not. I love seeing your pika at tournies

Please come