On Melee and Brawl(A Proposition to the Community)

[Pink Reaper]

Ok, there's alot of discussion going on right now about Melee and Brawl and which is more competitive and which is better and which is blah blah blah blah, but I feel that, despite the large amount of discussion, nothing is actually getting accomplished, so Im here to propose an idea and I hope that some of you will actually listen and maybe help me along with it.

The general consensus right now is that Melee is more competitive than Brawl and as such, fits the tournament standard better than Brawl. Despite this, the community seems to be shifting to Brawl without even thinking about a better solution. Almost all of the major tournaments and definitely all of the smaller and mid size tournaments are hosted by us, the Smash community. If Brawl takes over as the tournament standard its because we let it. However, I don't believe we should, at least, not yet. As of right now, the only argument about Brawls competitiveness is that it will PROBABLY get better over time, we just have to wait. If that's the case, we should wait, wait until the game gets flushed out further, until we have a better understanding of how the metagame works and above all else, we should wait to see if the game is really worth our time.

Ok, on to my proposition. We, as a community, should keep melee the focus for our tournaments for the time being. Yes its that simple. Brawl should take a back seat to Melee for now, Im not saying we SHOULDN'T have tournaments for Brawl, but for now the larger tourneys and the biweeklies that garner larger turnouts should be Melee focused. As for Brawl, it should be a secondary tournament for the time being(sort of like doubles or crews) at the larger tourneys. This way, if Brawls game play ever does deepen, if the metagame becomes a worthy successor to Melee, then we can simply switch it into melee's place and make it the focus but if its not a worthy successor we don't have to worry about being forced into playing a less competitive game.

Yes, this seems like a simple idea, but unfortunately it won't work unless we as a community can agree with it. Im sure there will be some that simply refuse to go back to melee because they have a shiny new toy and the old one's gotten a little out of date, but we have to think about the long run, and in the long run, this may be our best option.

 

[Lefticle]

If we don't give Brawl a decent-sized competitive scene of its own, the metagame won't have an opportunity to develop, and therefore any competitive potential the game has will go largely unseen by the Smash community.

 

[Firestorm88]

This is one of the stupidest ideas I've heard. How do you expect Brawl to get more competitive if you push it away and use Melee as your focus instead? Brawl is out. The community has ALREADY adopted it. Advance Brawl. Don't wait for others to do it for you.

 

[Pink Reaper]

This is one of the stupidest ideas I've heard. How do you expect Brawl to get more competitive if you push it away and use Melee as your focus instead? Brawl is out. The community has ALREADY adopted it. Advance Brawl. Don't wait for others to do it for you.

Im not saying push it away, Im saying not to let it take over. No one seems to want to think about the fact that Brawl may fail as a competitive game. If it does, its not going to be as simple as "Lets all go back to Melee" as everyone will have left it to die. Everyone's using the, "wait and see" excuse for Brawl to get better, so WHY AREN'T WE WAITING? Brawl could literally ruin the community if we don't take the measures to keep the community alive in the event that Brawl fails to be a worthy successor to Melee.

 

[derf]

this thread needs a better title. one that clearly states your proposal. also you might be going too far. i like melee and dont like brawl and still think the way to go right now is either equal emphasis or melee side tournies

 

[Pink Reaper]

Dude, help me think of better title, I knew it was bad the second I made it @.@

Also, you may be right about me putting too much emphasis on Melee, but it really seems like the community is making a huge mistake by simply switching to Brawl right away. Brawl should be something we ease in to the lead assuming its metagame deepens. However, if we don't have melee to fall back on, we could see a large amount of backlash from the community should Brawl fail to pan out, sort of like the transition from Tekken TT to Tekken 4. The Tekken community still exists, but it took a hard hit that it never really recovered from when they jumped too quickly to Tekken 4 and its something I don't want to see happen to the Smash community.

 

[Johnknight1]

Let's stay with Melee and smash 64. Who's to say Smash 64 isn't more competitve? Push Brawl forward. It's the most balanced of the series by far (no smash 64 Pikachus, no smash 64 Kirbys, no Melee space animals, no Melee transvestites, no smash 64 Links, no smash 64 Samus', no Melee Pichus, no Melee Kirbys, and no Melee Mewtwos), has the best stages (BY FARRRR; seriously, the average Melee stage is okay at best), the most tournament-legal and neutral stage-worthy stages in the series (more then smash 64 and Melee combined, almost! >_<), the most balanced items,the best items, and the overally most balanced and tactical gameplay out of all games in the series. Not the most technical yet, but it will be in due time. The gameplay is balance is better then Melee and smash 64 combined. I think it's the most balanced fighting game I've ever played, really. O, and above all ONLINE keeps the community obssessed with Brawl. >_>

 

[Firestorm88]

Im not saying push it away, Im saying not to let it take over. No one seems to want to think about the fact that Brawl may fail as a competitive game. If it does, its not going to be as simple as "Lets all go back to Melee" as everyone will have left it to die. Everyone's using the, "wait and see" excuse for Brawl to get better, so WHY AREN'T WE WAITING? Brawl could literally ruin the community if we don't take the measures to keep the community alive in the event that Brawl fails to be a worthy successor to Melee.

Wait and see is not a literal saying. Wait and see requires us to DO something. Otherwise what we'll see is exactly what we see now. If Brawl turns out to be crap, then it is crap. We're going to go through what Soul Calibur players did. However, from what I've seen of the game so far, I doubt it will turn to that anytime soon.

The community has decided already. Seriously, the momentum is towards Brawl and nothing anyone says is going to stop that.

 

[JTB]

Let's stay with Melee and smash 64. Who's to say Smash 64 isn't more competitve? Push Brawl forward. It's the most balanced of the series by far (no smash 64 Pikachus, no smash 64 Kirbys, no Melee space animals, no Melee transvestites, no smash 64 Links, no smash 64 Samus', no Melee Pichus, no Melee Kirbys, and no Melee Mewtwos), has the best stages (BY FARRRR; seriously, the average Melee stage is okay at best), the most tournament-legal and neutral stage-worthy stages in the series (more then smash 64 and Melee combined, almost! >_<), the most balanced items,the best items, and the overally most balanced and tactical gameplay out of all games in the series. Not the most technical yet, but it will be in due time. The gameplay is balance is better then Melee and smash 64 combined. I think it's the most balanced fighting game I've ever played, really. O, and above all ONLINE keeps the community obssessed with Brawl. >_>

Tripping doesn't make a game balanced.

Someone's a fanboy.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Yes. I think this is good.

Simply because so many smashers (espcially the newer ones) shun Melee for Brawl, attempting to put the primary focus on Melee will most likely result in the two games getting equal treatment.

 

[Miharu]

Let's stay with Melee and smash 64. Who's to say Smash 64 isn't more competitve? Push Brawl forward. It's the most balanced of the series by far (no smash 64 Pikachus, no smash 64 Kirbys, no Melee space animals, no Melee transvestites, no smash 64 Links, no smash 64 Samus', no Melee Pichus, no Melee Kirbys, and no Melee Mewtwos), has the best stages (BY FARRRR; seriously, the average Melee stage is okay at best), the most tournament-legal and neutral stage-worthy stages in the series (more then smash 64 and Melee combined, almost! >_<), the most balanced items,the best items, and the overally most balanced and tactical gameplay out of all games in the series. Not the most technical yet, but it will be in due time. The gameplay is balance is better then Melee and smash 64 combined. I think it's the most balanced fighting game I've ever played, really. O, and above all ONLINE keeps the community obssessed with Brawl. >_>

How can you say that the game's balanced?

It's been out for 2 months. We don't know nearly enough about it at this point to comment whether is balanced or not.

 

[memphischains]

How about everyone stops whining? Jesus christ.

The community will seperate on its own. Some will stick with melee, some will move on. Its that simple. What we should do is make a seperate melee tournement forum and have a divider that leaves brawl inperson / online tournements completely irrelevant. That way there will be a complete split and no confusion.

This argument is based soley on individual's opinions, which, if history has ever tought us anything, is that this will go on for years. There will be no winning because there is no right answer.

melees faster, brawl is better, too early, no wave dashing, new Ats, new characters, old news, l canceling, n00bs play brawl, online sucks, too slow, SHFFL, R.O.B.?, i'm better at melee, its a refresh button, unknowns entering elietist status, online play, but... melee a classic, young link is top tier, wtf, your stupid, no you are, blah blah

ALL THESE THINGS ARE TURE, BUT ITS PLEOPLE'S ****ING OPINION SO NO ONE IS ****ING WRONG.

People, leave this topic alone... PLEASE. Like what the flying pot bellied pig.

 

[hoopspr226]

You're plan isn't feasible. It would actually make more sense if you were propositioning the community to completely drop brawl and go back to melee, on the grounds that melee is a superior game. However, if you believe that we can play melee now and still have any hope brawl will still develop, you are badly mistaken.

All the good players will spend all their time practicing melee if all the tournaments are melee tournaments. How will the brawl scene have any chance to develop in that case? Would the melee scene ever have become nearly this developed if if there were no melee tournaments, and everyone just hosted 64 tournaments even after melee was out?

 

[mikeHAZE]

How can you say that the game's balanced?

It's been out for 2 months. We don't know nearly enough about it at this point to comment whether is balanced or not.

because he probably plays with all his friends and goes even, or wins so him winning = him being decent/ the game being balanced.

Trust me, if he was getting ***** (i can do the job if you would like), then he wouldn't be saying the same thing.

 

[Pink Reaper]

You're plan isn't feasible. It would actually make more sense if you were propositioning the community to completely drop brawl and go back to melee, on the grounds that melee is a superior game. However, if you believe that we can play melee now and still have any hope brawl will still develop, you are badly mistaken.

All the good players will spend all their time practicing melee if all the tournaments are melee tournaments. How will the brawl scene have any chance to develop in that case? Would the melee scene ever have become nearly this developed if if there were no melee tournaments, and everyone just hosted 64 tournaments even after melee was out?

Your forgetting that there will still be very large sponsored Brawl tourneys like Evo and MLG(maybe) that Pros WILL care about and that WILL be there to advance Brawls metagame.

 

[derpinsmash]

why don't we just let brawl continue online and focus on melee? a little lag ain't gonna stop the metagame from developing.

 

[AXE 09]

why don't we just let brawl continue online and focus on melee? a little lag ain't gonna stop the metagame from developing.

as a pikachu player, trying to quick attack cancel online isn't easy at all because of the lag. i guess you could call this a john, but i can't play pikachu nearly as well online because of the lag, even if it is just a tiny little bit. try it out yourself. i much perfer playing in person

anyways, i think we should have brawl AND melee tournaments. maybe one week have a brawl tourney, and another have a melee tourney. the only problem with that for me is that there's not too many advanced melee players in my city, so most of the people here would go towards brawl. sad to say, if i run a melee tourney, barely anybody would come, whereas if i were to host a brawl tourney, a LOT most people would go to it simply because brawl is more popular right now where i live. i wish there were more melee players here =(

 

[Lange]

Whats metagame someone explain that to me. Also whats wrong with brawl thats theres problems having tournaments for it?

 

[XSilvenX]

I skipped everything in this thread.


I just wanted to say...


This is a really dumb idea.

Yay for Brawl.

 

[Starzonedge]

Sounds like you're afraid of change.

 

[Shai Hulud]

"Afraid of change"? What bull****. Since when do we live in a world where we have to accept whatever the Nintendo Gods decide to grace us with, regardless of a game's merits? Right now there's a strong novelty bias towards moving to Brawl tournaments, but the fact is that Melee is a deeper game.

People should not be so quick to abandon Melee just because there's a new game out with the word "Smash" in the title. There's plenty of precedent for competitive communities rejecting newer, inferior titles (Quake 3 to Quake 4, for instance).

 

[HiIH]

I have seen alot fewer thought out arguments for brawl than I have for melee. I think it is a mistake that the smash community is moving straight into a tourney competetive scene for brawl weeks after it is released.

It sounds kind of infeasible, but..... like a year before we start doing Brawl tourneys as the major focus. It would also serve as a trial period for Brawl so everyone can shut up about the excuse when it does become a factor of if Brawl is going to actually be able to be a competetive game...
= (

Just sounds like an all around solution to make everyone happy, and satisfy all of the arguments.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I have seen alot fewer thought out arguments for brawl than I have for melee. I think it is a mistake that the smash community is moving straight into a tourney competetive scene for brawl weeks after it is released.

It sounds kind of infeasible, but..... like a year before we start doing Brawl tourneys as the major focus. It would also serve as a trial period for Brawl so everyone can shut up about the excuse when it does become a factor of if Brawl is going to actually be able to be a competetive game...
= (

Just sounds like an all around solution to make everyone happy, and satisfy all of the arguments.

Everyone is saying "Just wait and Brawl will get better!" so once again I ask, why aren't we waiting?

Also, almonds > Pistachios

 

[HiIH]

We had this discussion, Pecans totally rule.

Also I agree, about waiting anyways.

 

[Chexr]

Brawl will not advance much more than it is right now. All the metagame from 7 years of melee DOES carry over. This is a new formula or some crazy alien game its the same thing we've been doing for all this time but in a severely watered down basic. Character movesets dont change the metagame of spacing and mindgames.

Brawl will not hold the communities interest like melee did and there will not be enough new comers to keep having local tournaments with decent turnouts when half of the old community quits and gets bored, which is already starting to happen. I cant imagine people investing the time and effort to travel and pay money when only a select few reap the payouts when its just not fun going to tournaments anymore. Brawl wont last 7 years. Melee will last 7 more.

edit: Starzonedge luelinker?

 

[HiIH]

Unfortunately there is a slight point about perhaps still finding new ways to enhance movement with a new physics engine. The new physics engine could be the entire reason L cancelling is gone. I'd guess that removing it wasn't even exactly intentional (Though I could totally be wrong), but rather a byproduct of switching....

 

[Pink Reaper]

Chexr is entirely right though in that as competitive brawl's metagame deepens(if it even deepens beyond what it is now) the game will just become more and more defensive and less and less fun. Even if we can find new ways to enhance movement, we're still stuck with a far too defensive metagame and the fact is that its just not enough fun to want to keep playing for very long.

 

[derpinsmash]

Let's stay with Melee and smash 64. Who's to say Smash 64 isn't more competitve? Push Brawl forward. It's the most balanced of the series by far (no smash 64 Pikachus, no smash 64 Kirbys, no Melee space animals, no Melee transvestites, no smash 64 Links, no smash 64 Samus', no Melee Pichus, no Melee Kirbys, and no Melee Mewtwos), has the best stages (BY FARRRR; seriously, the average Melee stage is okay at best), the most tournament-legal and neutral stage-worthy stages in the series (more then smash 64 and Melee combined, almost! >_<), the most balanced items,the best items, and the overally most balanced and tactical gameplay out of all games in the series. Not the most technical yet, but it will be in due time. The gameplay is balance is better then Melee and smash 64 combined. I think it's the most balanced fighting game I've ever played, really. O, and above all ONLINE keeps the community obssessed with Brawl. >_>

when melee came out it didn't immediately seem less competitive than smash 64 or maybe i don't know what the hell i'm talking about.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think abandoning melee tournaments completely would indeed be a mistake, and I agree with this idea. Brawl already has very large sponsers (MLG, EVO), but melee is dying out. The reason that we need some tournaments to focus on melee, is because brawl has already taken over with this wave of newcommers supporting it. We need to balance it out, because at this point it doesn't look like brawl is really going to get much better (or at least not as good as melee). We need to at least keep the melee scene alive in the case that brawl doesn't go well, and we can transfer over later. Believe it or not, it's possible to play both games, it's just that melee is currently lacking in community support. All the brawl players keep telling us to go back to melee, but melee doesn't have a community to go back to which is the problem. The majority of the community has jumped headfirst into brawl hoping for the best, and I really don't think that's the smartest decision.

It'd be great if both communities could thrive, but melee does not have much support right now and brawl really isn't looking too good right now from a competative standpoint. Melee has proven itself and yet it's being thrown out simply because brawl is new? If brawl develops into something better, then maybe we would drop melee tournaments, but brawl is heading in the opposite direction of where most of us want it to go.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

The thing is most people don't want to go back to Melee.

 

[khepri]

I completely agree. I've been saying this since before the game came out. There's no point in having tournaments for a game that hasn't really been figured out yet.

 

[khepri]

when melee came out it didn't immediately seem less competitive than smash 64 or maybe i don't know what the hell i'm talking about.

There was no real smash scene when melee came out. Melee made smash what it is today.

 

[derpinsmash]

The thing is most people don't want to go back to Melee.

true but most people don't matter, the ones that are willing to travel to neighboring states and pay money for gas and an en tree fee for a tournament however, do. I have a feeling that the brawl release caused alot of new people to join this board who aren't interested in tournaments at all.

 

[Dark Iori Yagami]

true but most people don't matter, the ones that are willing to travel to neighboring states and pay money for gas and an en tree fee for a tournament however, do. I have a feeling that the brawl release caused alot of new people to join this board who aren't interested in tournaments at all.

I agree most people who support brawl don't even go to tournys, instead just post their friend codes. They really are the fall of melee. Funny thing is I was a hugh melee fan and won tons of simi big tourneys and when brawl came out it continued. I got first, second, and third and still see no fun in brawl. My real goal now is to make anyone I play hate it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

because he probably plays with all his friends and goes even, or wins so him winning = him being decent/ the game being balanced.

Trust me, if he was getting ***** (i can do the job if you would like), then he wouldn't be saying the same thing.

'Twas done by yours truly. I was even sandbagging. lol

I still wanna play you Haze.

Even though the flaws in his argument stick out like a biased sore thumb, he still isn't going to retract his argument because of his love for Nintendo's slander. Generally, Nintendo fans are like prison currency.

 

[Deadandlivin]

The OP got a point.
Brawls tech level will rise with time and not during tournments. People will discover them when they try out new things and that is certainly nothing you do in the finals.

So simply i agree, the major competitions should be dedicated in a bigger scale towards melee, since it's (Imo) far more balanced game, yes i'm serious about that, funnier to watch and play and ofcourse more fast paced.

"Let brawl evolove" Ofcourse, we all are letting it do so but it wont to it at a tourny rather when you sit with your friends and try find out new things.

Now, i still think brawl dont and wont have anymore depth then what currently has been found.
Those who have hopes of brawl getting more techs and becoming really advances are still dreaming, your probably going to be playing the exactly same game for months-years and then continue with something else when the hopes are lost.
I'm not saying what i want to happen, i want brawl to get extremely advanced but after all the "hard" work sakurai has to make the game kinda unintressting my hopes are lost.

And lets not forget there is'nt any cure yet for the extremely slow bowser vs bowser on slow motion mode brawl is displaying.

(And ofc, I WANT YOU TO KNOW I DRAW MY OWN CONCLUSIONS SAYING THIS.
What i say is'nt the truth of the day)

 

[Deadandlivin]

Let's stay with Melee and smash 64. Who's to say Smash 64 isn't more competitve? Push Brawl forward. It's the most balanced of the series by far (no smash 64 Pikachus, no smash 64 Kirbys, no Melee space animals, no Melee transvestites, no smash 64 Links, no smash 64 Samus', no Melee Pichus, no Melee Kirbys, and no Melee Mewtwos), has the best stages (BY FARRRR; seriously, the average Melee stage is okay at best), the most tournament-legal and neutral stage-worthy stages in the series (more then smash 64 and Melee combined, almost! >_<), the most balanced items,the best items, and the overally most balanced and tactical gameplay out of all games in the series. Not the most technical yet, but it will be in due time. The gameplay is balance is better then Melee and smash 64 combined. I think it's the most balanced fighting game I've ever played, really. O, and above all ONLINE keeps the community obssessed with Brawl. >_>

Yep, chain grabbing fox with pika from X-95% is extremely balanced, not even requiering any effort. Balanced yes...

Oh i did'nt mention tripping did i? Dont get me started!

-Melee is far more balanced, eventhough mewtwo sucked and such there are the same examples in brawl (Ganon, Jiggs anyone?)

-Stages being balanced? I dont really care..
You can create your own stages and still, i only play FD, BF and smashville.

-I, and i guess most others, still dont use items.

-Balanced gaming? Yeah right, incase you figure projectile spamming and slow play still balanced sure. You dont need an extremely fast working brain any longer. Instead just watch and adapt.

Oh, and you fyi, Kirby and Pika is (Imo) extremely overpowered in Brawl.

THE ONLY THING BETTER WITH BRAWL IS ONLINE OPTIONS, which is the only thing i entirely agree with you.

 

[RedTreachery]

Tourneys are part of the development of the game though. You can't just play Brawl on the weekends but go straight to Melee for the tourney, can you. I loved Melee and I'm pretty good at Brawl from what I've seen so far (Pika rep ) but I just think Brawl isn't going to make it as a real competitive game. To say it quite clearly, I only enjoy Brawl when I'm smoking or drinking with my friends, and it seems this is all Brawl is supposed to be. I don't think half of us will bother checking this site in 6 months as we'll all be bored to death by this game. There is no real competition in this game.

Melee is just dying out because everyone is in denial of how crap Brawl is. FFS, we should have known it would be lame when we saw how much work was being put into the single player game. The point I'm trying to make is that smash bros as a competitive game is probably going to diminish to becoming a party game at the max. Too many newcomers to Brawl and not enough people willing to pop Melee into their Wii.

Derpinsmash is 100% correct. When Melee came out everyone knew it ***** us due to how good it was.

Seriously, if Brawl is to remain competitive we need to try and make it more thrilling and "less-balanced." BF and FD were once the only real places to play at, but now they're just good stages if you want to bore the other player into submission. Maybe we need to make levels like Frigate O., Brinstar, Spear Pillar, and Poke Stad 2 normal tourney levels as they make the game a bit more random and add some sort of spunk to it.

But anyways, Im just some guy who has played 64 and Melee since they've been out and never been in a tournament outside of Tucson, and the only tourney I'll host now will be a 2v2, so eff it, Starcraft 2 baby.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

NO UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

Said by one of the Midsouth's finest.

...

P.S. I agree wholeheartedly with Iori and his REAL points. FYI. Too many people are gravitating towards the nice, shiny thing in the corner (Brawl) and leaving old faithful somewhere to collect dust (Melee).

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jack Kieser]

I don't see the logic in leaving Brawl's metagame to evolve on its own outside of mainstream tournaments. I mean, I've been working on Brawl's item metagame for a month and a half now, but all I keep hearing from fellow Melee vets is 'Why don't you host a tournament?' Most people admit that change will not come from anything outside a mainstream tournament... so wouldn't us relegating Brawl to the corner instead of Melee be sealing its fate?