OLD, CLOSED Zero Suit Samus Video Thread (2/2/10)

[FIERCE]

a) I've played a lot of Metaknights, and PS'd a third hit of the f-tilt and punished with a grab, there's a bit of lag on his end from that attack so I consider the grab fairly-safe. I haven't had any problems with the grabs missing. I've used d-tilt as a punish before and although a bit safer, the range is a lot harder to get on Metaknights that like to space the f-tilt. If you miss the d-tilt they usually just punish with a d-smash or another f-tilt, which is not as fun to deal with.

b) I meant the latter, and in the situations in the matches posted it seemed more of a viable option. If your shield is fresh and they're attacking your shield hoping to poke you, then you should have enough time to roll away and punish their fall with a d-tilt ( they're attacking your shield trying to poke damage from the top). If they're just trying to chew up your shield and run away then ****, you're really out of most options. I would usually ledge camp until my shield is back then try again.

If they decide to nado away from you then I would rarely ever attempt a dash grab because it's the most expected punish for a nado (says le Jason) that has no odds in our favor if missed. (ZSS took a TON of damage from missed grabs in game 2). I find that a dash to shield approach actually works better, as long as you stay at a good enough range, whether d-tilt or grab range, so you can punish a spot dodge, or stay in shield so you can punish an Up+B.

c) <3 u b00.

EDIT: I wonder if a thread outlining what-punishes-what for match ups would be beneficial? Considering how campy this game is, I think if we had a punish for things poorly spaced then people would fare better with ZSS instead of whiffing attacks hoping they'll connect.

 

[Nefarious B]

If MK's ftilt3 hits a shield you have 30 frames to do something, if your reactions were amazing you could technically drop shield and dsmash him for it. You can definitely grab. I looove it when MK's ftilt quickly in succession, instead of mixing up ftilt 1 to grab with finishing slowly.

 

[Cynan Machae]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySLMDgSnaro

Is that the Diddy matchup or japanese players play ZSS wayyy different? Still, nice banana stuff, especially at 2:38

 

[Snakeee]

Snakeee critique my actual vids please as well ;o. Of course this applies to anyone else who wants to help. I need to learn as much as i can about what im doing wrong and what im not doing that i should be doing.

Thaaaaaaaanks in advance

Alrighty, here goes.

- First thing I noticed was you started rushing MK, and you most definitely don't want to be doing that on the ground .

- Nado Troubles
You had the same problem getting out of tornado that seems very common among many players including myself until recently. You're airdodging the very instant you break out of the nado. You actually want to wait until the nado is just about to hit you again. When I go for it right away, they always seem to catch me back into it as the airdodge ends :/ . Another issue is your jumping around, which is giving him easy nados or potentially much worse punishment. That's a habit I've been working on too, it just feels right to jump around a lot when there's nothing really happening XD . Also, you might need to work on DI'ing the nado just a bit.

- You rolled randomly in a lot of spots where you had plenty of space, and only created a bad situation from it. This usually (and in my case) comes from nervousness. Relax, go for the win, but have fun with it!

- I noticed you used up tilt in an interesting way to get out of a low percent combo, nice I almost forgot a bit of its usage in that MU. You also used it a bit too much overall though. Remember, it's a highly punishable move and you definitely don't want to get predictable with it.

- I wouldn't try and d-smash MK very from above a platform. It's much more likely that you will get hit rather than him, and even though the d-smash pays off nicely losing there still puts him in a situation where he can pull off big strings of attacks and you may end up offstage X_X . Also if he simply up B's from the ground while you're on most plats, I think you're always going to get hit anyway.

- Use much less dash attack, and mostly only at percents where you can lock with it and I suppose at 0% on occasion as it should combo into uptilt there.

- Try not to down B onto the stage in recovering particularly vs MK. Usually try and make sure you're under him when you recover so that you can up air which actually has the potential to stop basically all his edgeguards if used properly. Mix things up though, and don't always tether at the same time. Also, make sure to do the quick tether as a default.

- Some BEAUTIFUL use of pivot grab, and grabs in general! I was really excited to see that
...just stop shield grabbing to try and punish MK's attacks. It usually doesn't work, and the risk reward is usually way too high (you were well above kill percent when I saw you try it). I guess technically it can work in some cases when his laggier moves are powershielded, but I still feel like it's way too slow. When you miss a grab with ZSS, your opponent has enough time to make himself a sandwich, eat it, digest it, **** it out, come back and pick his controller up and f-smash you .

If MK's ftilt3 hits a shield you have 30 frames to do something, if your reactions were amazing you could technically drop shield and dsmash him for it. You can definitely grab. I looove it when MK's ftilt quickly in succession, instead of mixing up ftilt 1 to grab with finishing slowly.

30 frames? o_o . That's somewhat surprising, but I guess it kind of makes sense. However, most of the tougher MK's I have played d-tilt much more than f-tilt, and the d-tilt seems to **** ZSS even more and is safe as hell. Sometimes, they do a lot of d-tilt - ftilt mix ups and that's super annoying too

 

[DRN]

Alrighty, here goes.

- First thing I noticed was you started rushing MK, and you most definitely don't want to be doing that on the ground .

- Nado Troubles
You had the same problem getting out of tornado that seems very common among many players including myself until recently. You're airdodging the very instant you break out of the nado. You actually want to wait until the nado is just about to hit you again. When I go for it right away, they always seem to catch me back into it as the airdodge ends :/ . Another issue is your jumping around, which is giving him easy nados or potentially much worse punishment. That's a habit I've been working on too, it just feels right to jump around a lot when there's nothing really happening XD . Also, you might need to work on DI'ing the nado just a bit.

- You rolled randomly in a lot of spots where you had plenty of space, and only created a bad situation from it. This usually (and in my case) comes from nervousness. Relax, go for the win, but have fun with it!

- I noticed you used up tilt in an interesting way to get out of a low percent combo, nice I almost forgot a bit of its usage in that MU. You also used it a bit too much overall though. Remember, it's a highly punishable move and you definitely don't want to get predictable with it.

- I wouldn't try and d-smash MK very from above a platform. It's much more likely that you will get hit rather than him, and even though the d-smash pays off nicely losing there still puts him in a situation where he can pull off big strings of attacks and you may end up offstage X_X . Also if he simply up B's from the ground while you're on most plats, I think you're always going to get hit anyway.

- Use much less dash attack, and mostly only at percents where you can lock with it and I suppose at 0% on occasion as it should combo into uptilt there.

- Try not to down B onto the stage in recovering particularly vs MK. Usually try and make sure you're under him when you recover so that you can up air which actually has the potential to stop basically all his edgeguards if used properly. Mix things up though, and don't always tether at the same time. Also, make sure to do the quick tether as a default.

- Some BEAUTIFUL use of pivot grab, and grabs in general! I was really excited to see that
...just stop shield grabbing to try and punish MK's attacks. It usually doesn't work, and the risk reward is usually way too high (you were well above kill percent when I saw you try it). I guess technically it can work in some cases when his laggier moves are powershielded, but I still feel like it's way too slow. When you miss a grab with ZSS, your opponent has enough time to make himself a sandwich, eat it, digest it, **** it out, come back and pick his controller up and f-smash you .




30 frames? o_o . That's somewhat surprising, but I guess it kind of makes sense. However, most of the tougher MK's I have played d-tilt much more than f-tilt, and the d-tilt seems to **** ZSS even more and is safe as hell. Sometimes, they do a lot of d-tilt - ftilt mix ups and that's super annoying too

Awesome, Thanks Man. Yea i guess i like to grab a little too much but thats basically because i feel very confident in what our grab can do after release. I also generally grab more in the mk match up because unless the mk knows zss range for his grab and dsmash i can usually punish tornado especially since micaelis liked to tornado a lot in these sets. The main problem i did notice from myself was what u pointed out, which was the constant airdodging back into nado after release. Lets say i stop airdodging whats the best way to escape? Should i down B away if i dont have jumps ooor?

 

[Snakeee]

No problem...I feel that ZSS' airdodge is sufficient if you time it like I said since it is pretty good, and then DI down and away from him afterwards. Down B I've used before, and I used to think it was good, but MK can catch you back in it very easily. I also thought the special footstool after it worked wonders, but I'm pretty sure if they just move into you quick enough it still won't work :/ . Please correct me if I'm wrong though if you or anyone else knows for sure or wants to test it out.

 

[Dakpo]

I still wish someone would critque my vids vs espy D:

 

[Snakeee]

I still wish someone would critque my vids vs espy D:

All right I'll return the favor since you did it for me

- You don't want to ever use grab when you're around KO percent, which is somewhat low vs Sonic with his f-smash. I know it's obvious to you, and likely obvious to your opponent that you shouldn't be doing this, but the risk vs reward just far outweighs that.

- Use much less dash attack, especially vs a character with a decent shield grab. You even just charged right in and dash attacked several times.
Just break that habit. I know we don't have all too much we can do on the ground game, but you just have to bear with it and try to make solid reads and be a little creative as well.

- I enjoyed the occasional walking f-tilts since I've been doing that myself now. It's a surprisingly good mix up for some situations

- Don't down B onto the stage much at all (at least not above your opponent's head) It works vs some players when you do it with the intention of buffering a special footstool, but it's extremely obvious and a lot of characters can punish it...maybe not Sonic though I'm mentioning this just in case as a general rule of thumb.

- Don't do the attack part of the down B unless you're like almost certain it's going to work...but really almost never use it when you're trying to run away or get back on the stage because it makes you a sitting duck X_X . I see this wayyy too often by just about every ZSS main though I've had that habit myself. When I get really nervous I still do stuff like that sometimes, and other gimmicks like get up attack > 100% that most ppl I play are accustomed to and know how to **** me if I try them at all now really.

- Use side B very rarely vs Sonic, and never really as a spacing tool against him. He is one of the best characters at shielding and rushing in for a grab, so his timing doesn't even have to be that great really.

- The neutral B was a good choice as your standard for spacing vs Sonic. I prefer mixing up charged and uncharged, but lean it much more towards uncharged because of how big a distance he can close in on just while you're charging it >_> .

- Work on the aerial game a bit more.

Otherwise, pretty good stuff. You're definitely on your way

 

[FIERCE]

Dakpo, if iirc, doesn't D-tilt also work well against a Sonic charging at you as well? I think for the most part it'll clank but I find it better than doing uncharged Neutral B's since it closes the gap between you two.

I've played friendlies with X a few times when he was in Socal and a mixup between un/charged Neutral+B's and D-tilts seemed to work well.

 

[Cheeszeman_]

*sigh* no critiques yet

Cool to see my SnakeeeeeEEEEEEEEE give some pro tips!

Do ya... y'know.... wanna critique my vids?

 

[Dumbfire]

This is a wonderful showcase of Nicks ability to make people ragequit on ZSS her teritory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luT6605m-Bk&feature=sub

 

[NickRiddle]

This is a wonderful showcase of Nicks ability to make people ragequit on ZSS her teritory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luT6605m-Bk&feature=sub

No, you've got it all wrong.
I quit.
I gave up.
How could I keep playing after that lava wall bs?

 

[Snakeee]

No, you've got it all wrong.
I quit.
I gave up.
How could I keep playing after that lava wall bs?

Lol was silly that it let him grab the ledge, but whatev what happened how'd you lose???

 

[NickRiddle]

Lol was silly that it let him grab the ledge, but whatev what happened how'd you lose???

I was already 0-2 in the set. MVD is too good, and Snake vs. ZSS is too dumb. I would have been 1-2, and would have lost on his CP.

 

[Cheeszeman_]

one thing i've learned in the 4 tourneys i've ever gone to

stupid **** happens in smash all the time. even in tournament play. But you can't let it get to you, otherwise sakurai will triumph again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE37fUuGn0M
good example of how sakurai imparts destiny into his games. :/

 

[Dumbfire]

Well you didn't seem like the type to do that, my bad.
And he was the one in 220 percent LOL

 

[Snakeee]

one thing i've learned in the 4 tourneys i've ever gone to

stupid **** happens in smash all the time. even in tournament play. But you can't let it get to you, otherwise sakurai will triumph again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE37fUuGn0M
good example of how sakurai imparts destiny into his games. :/

First stock, yeah I hate when that happens X_X

Second stock though, is why I say not to Down B like that in recovering

...I'll get to your other vids soon to critique I didn't see them though.

 

[Cheeszeman_]

So are there rules about critiquing videos?

 

[Zero]

Um, try not to be scathingly offensive? lol

 

[Cheeszeman_]

That's a good rule!

 

[Nefarious B]

Mr-R vs T (Marth)

Enjoy, this entire set is absurd. The last kill in game 6 was ****inmypants worthy

 

[NickRiddle]

Tell him to do that to ICs.
it's much funnier. :3

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Last kill was pretty ****.

 

[Zero]

and this is why Battlefield is **** for us

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

<3 Battlefield

 

[Cheeszeman_]

I LOVE all the downB cancels!
speaking of... is there any info on downB cancels on the zoot boards?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

T doesn't even main marth... or ever used him in tourney iirc lol

 

[Dakpo]

His marth is not bad at all. And wow im impressed with Mr R.
Of course he gets a little greedy

 

[Cheeszeman_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UU_THHecNk&feature=sub

My 2 sets with CaptainL - Pikachu

I don't really know the match up very well, got caught by surprise a couple times, but I think I did pretty well considering the skill gap between him and me. Any critiques would be MUCH appreciated!

thanks!

 

[shlike]

Friendlies with trela

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co5seDGukXw

the end of game 1 is the hardest read i've ever done.

I'll have my matches against razer up soon and hopefully some other ones.

CRITIQUE PLZ!

 

[Asa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UU_THHecNk&feature=sub

My 2 sets with CaptainL - Pikachu

I don't really know the match up very well, got caught by surprise a couple times, but I think I did pretty well considering the skill gap between him and me. Any critiques would be MUCH appreciated!

thanks!

couple things off the bat:
-read up on the matchup (from both points of view)/check the pika board and see what they can do to you. by doing so you'll know what to expect, which can help you prepare to DI better (your DI was pretty bad game 1)
-uair is your best momentum cancel. you used bair for most of game 1.
-work on powershielding proectiles. you shouldn't be taking significant damage from thunderjolts.

1:00 - excellent read. imo a better followup would be hard tossing the suitpiece at the pikachu, but you did get a good followup so no complaints.
1:18 - you got a bit of a nervous habit, where you roll when you feel pressured or unsure of what to do. try to work on that. luckily you didn't get punished.
1:23 - watch your opponent more and react to what he'll do. throwing out a dsmash when he's jumped far in advance isn't goo
1:25 - you're just throwing out dsmashes. you're forcing it, and it's not working out for you. remember that pika uses nair to kill. keep that in mind so you'll be better prepared to DI it properly.
1:30- lots of things.. there was no need to use the down-b kick, you didn't DI the usmash well, you momentum cancelled with bair, and by momentum cancelling u set yourself up to get hit with thunder.

1:48- good job landing the neutral b, but it looked like you were autopiloting, which resulted in a missed followup.
2:00 - be more careful with your dash attack use. keep in mind that it is quite punishable.
2:10 - could've utilted instead of rolled.
2:15 - he was at 0.. he's not gonna go that high when you dtilt him lol looked like more autopiloting. easily couldve landed a dsmash if you had waited and watched what he'd (and what many ppl) do - airdodge.
2:22 - he gave you lotsss of room to land, you didn't need to land on him lol.
2:44 - aw D: get those platform cancels proper!
2:50 - if you watch your opponent more, youll notice that he loves to run up and shield, expecting a dsmash or w/e. try charging the dsmash to shield poke or hit him when he tries spotdoding after.
3:52 - utilt/uair opportunity that was wasted on a roll
3:55 - lol. but again, watch where he's DI'ing, you could've seen that the last dsmash would've missed. could've gotten a dash atk followup.
4:00 - too much charging in guns blazing with that dash atk. do you see your percent? lol you wanna be a tad more safe.

4:27 - you keep getting punished for your dash atkssss >.>
4:34 - another stuffed dash atk..
4:46- k this pikachu likes to spotdodge quite a bit when you're up close. charge that dsmash
4:49 - excellent read


GAME 2
-good counterpick decision
- please please watch your dash atk usage. it gets you punished and puts you in bad positions. it's hella obvious.

6:23 - a bit of autopiloting. you couldve easily landed an uair in that situation.
7:00 - there's no need to always jump in the air with the opponent when they are hit up there. he wasn't in any good position to tjolt, so a side-b would've been very effective here. you were at the perfect range.
7:04 - you're getting read. mix up your recovery.
7:07 - got punished for doing the down-b kick again >.>


7:43 - that probably will only work once per set on someone who doesn't know what's going on lol
8:14 - DI.... >.>

9:46 - utilt instead of roll. you were also rolling a lottt this stock. tourney nerves i guess?
9:50- throughout this set, the pika will dair when he feels pressured in the air. remember that next time you face him so ou can punish it.

 

[Nefarious B]

Shlike I wrote up an awesome critique last night for you, TWICE, and my internet ate it both times. So here's the sparknotes version as best I remember it:

First off I love your ZSS, your style is a lot like mine but overall more polished.

You missed a really obvious edge guard on Lucario's first stock first game. Especially in this matchup you cannot let a juicy opportunity like that go, be aggressive with lucario as he recovers IMO because the reward is so high

You overshoot your juggle attempts a lot, either with a rising aerial or a rising up b. IMO what you can do to reduce this is jump and then use falling up b, it will clank with or beat his dair (depending on if the tip hits his head), or force an airdodge that you can then punish. Just be aware of how high your second jump goes so that you don't mispace your juggle attempts and get punished for it

Your punishes are really solid. Just letting you know that you can easily uair OOS if lucario hits your shield with dair, it is not as safe as it seems

Your charged dsmash mindgames are something I'm stealing

When you get a character with good rolls like Lucario cornered at the edge like you did a couple times, be extra patient, STAY GROUNDED, and wait to intercept the roll. Like in the game on Halberd I remember there was a point where he was at the edge, you shoot a charged nB at him, which frame traps decently because of how slow it travels, and then jump away and give up ground. Instead, dtilt his shield and then wait for the roll behind IMO, or stutter step side b to intercept it.

Basically, be more aware of stage presence/control, don't give it up so easily. Another example I remember is when on FD you do the backward toss forward glide toss away from Lucario. It happened to hit him, but if he had shielded you're not anywhere nearby to contest him as he grabs the piece. Use backtoss OOS instead so you're in a position to further pressure him. I find that the glidetoss away option has really really limited utility because of all the ground you give up while basically giving them a suitpiece.

If I remember anything else I'll say so

 

[Asa]

Shlike I wrote up an awesome critique last night for you, TWICE, and my internet ate it both times. So here's the sparknotes version as best I remember it:

lol the exact same thing happened to me >.>

 

[Cheeszeman_]

THANKS ASA!!

I appreciate the critique. Any other pro tips?

 

[shlike]

Thanks alot nef, your critique helps a lot.

Get some recent vids of you out so I can steal some tricksies as well

 

[Nefarious B]

Some vids of me vs Rich brown should go up soon but the guy who's uploading is being really slow. There should also be a match of me making some lesser Olimar rage quit (in friendlies) too haha, so you all can get your Olimar matchup down

 

[shlike]

Awesome, I have zero oli xp lol

 

[FIERCE]

How did you do vs. Rich, Nefarious? I really want to play him again although I loathe the matchup. </3

 

[Nefarious B]

How did you do vs. Rich, Nefarious? I really want to play him again although I loathe the matchup. </3

He beat me in tourney that day, you know how I'm always rusty at the start of a tourney because i can't practice /johns but yeah i was playing badly in our tourney set.

I got my spacing and block strings down by the time we played friendlies after and that helped a lot. We probably played 10 or so friendlies, they were mostly very close. I had one match that was straight combo vid status on him but the wii didn't have replay hacks and it was too long, made me sad haha. I managed to record what I thought was a good game, we'll see how it actually turns out.

He's def a smarter player than me, while I have matchup xp on him

 

[Dakpo]

hey Cheeszman, I might be wrong but can't you uptilt Pika during his UpB?