The biggest problem with D3 i would think is high wight. He can be hard to ko. I find its best to try to gimp him then out right ko him in that he a great deal slower in the air and his up b only has super armor for things with will hit him down so b air become very effective here. Also zss can stun the littl guys he thought and if they are stun he will thought nothing.
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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread
- Thread starter TheZeroSuit
- Start date
noradseven
Smash Lord
Side B is god in the match but not for the second hit but for the first because even on shield it almost always second hits, making it **** safe as long as you are out of range of d-tilt.
Speaking of which u-air owns DDD, what can he do if you are slightly in front of him under him, the answer very little.
Hey look you can't get chain grabbed.
His recovery just says please **** me to ZSS u-smash and up B are totally safe against it, and you can do some p. destructive things to his up B anyways, also his jumps are slow normally good its bad against ZSS.
Main problems with him, d-tilt, u-tilt, back air, he kills you at like no damage, also jab his b-air on block dedede players will not know wtf, also its safe cause he will be facing the wrong way.
6:4 ZSS favor, ZSS should win this but Dedede is the second only too G&W in random turnarounds so be careful.
Speaking of which u-air owns DDD, what can he do if you are slightly in front of him under him, the answer very little.
Hey look you can't get chain grabbed.
His recovery just says please **** me to ZSS u-smash and up B are totally safe against it, and you can do some p. destructive things to his up B anyways, also his jumps are slow normally good its bad against ZSS.
Main problems with him, d-tilt, u-tilt, back air, he kills you at like no damage, also jab his b-air on block dedede players will not know wtf, also its safe cause he will be facing the wrong way.
6:4 ZSS favor, ZSS should win this but Dedede is the second only too G&W in random turnarounds so be careful.
ZSS ***** King Dedede, are you kidding? 65:35
Everytime you SHFF an U-Air and he doesn't shield, it will hit.
Waddle Dees shouldn't be a problem because ZSS should be playing to overwhelm D3. If he throws a waddle dee, simply jab it to refresh your move list.
D-Tilt in this matchup is phenominal, just watch out for his B-Air and D-Air when juggling.
He can't CG us, but he'll taste vengence.
CG, 0-60%. GG
Everytime you SHFF an U-Air and he doesn't shield, it will hit.
Waddle Dees shouldn't be a problem because ZSS should be playing to overwhelm D3. If he throws a waddle dee, simply jab it to refresh your move list.
D-Tilt in this matchup is phenominal, just watch out for his B-Air and D-Air when juggling.
He can't CG us, but he'll taste vengence.
CG, 0-60%. GG
noradseven
Smash Lord
Im just being pessimistic because secret I don't know a good dedede player so I am making these judgments under the assumption that dedede could do better, waddle dees arn't a problem but **** screw spikees I have terrible luck with those. Also at 9:00 norad gets hit by G&W 9, 3 times in a row. <---seriously wtf, the only 3 I got hit by were 9s.
wooo, slow down guys, be aware of what Dedede has in the match-up.
Dedede doesn't die, first of all. Ever. Lets get that out of the way. You'll have to wait until at least 120% for your **** to start KOing when you hit him fresh from offstage with bad DI. The guy's a frikkin' fat-***. Getting rid of Dedede will be a pain. The biggest thing you have to your advantage is how easy it is for you to do damage, so at least you can get him to the KO range of about 200% without much effort, but in that time, you'll take the 0% necessary for him to KO you, so it's a bit of a trade-off.
But on the other side of the coin, the guy's pretty good at camping you, and outranges most of your arsenal, and he only has to PS that (easy). And yes, he can't CG you, but if you tech away, you'll tech right into a dash grab. Tech in place, you'll tech right into a SC grab. Tech towards him, you'll be caught in a pivot grab. Miss the tech, and he'll dair you. Dedede's tech chase game is at its prime in this match-up, because all of your tech options are covered by his dash speed plus his monstrous grab range. Try it. I was flabbergasted the first time I teched away from the guy. He didn't even have to reach for it. I literally teched right into his hand. Finally, he's got a **** good edgeguard. It's not too bad for ZSS, because you're much more mobile, but you really have to watch out for that bair. It's about the size of a Mack Truck, and if you get hit by it, you're completely boned.
I'm not saying the match-up is in Dedede's favor. Just be aware that he's not helpless in the match-up, and you will have to work for it. 6:4 on a good day.
Dedede doesn't die, first of all. Ever. Lets get that out of the way. You'll have to wait until at least 120% for your **** to start KOing when you hit him fresh from offstage with bad DI. The guy's a frikkin' fat-***. Getting rid of Dedede will be a pain. The biggest thing you have to your advantage is how easy it is for you to do damage, so at least you can get him to the KO range of about 200% without much effort, but in that time, you'll take the 0% necessary for him to KO you, so it's a bit of a trade-off.
But on the other side of the coin, the guy's pretty good at camping you, and outranges most of your arsenal, and he only has to PS that (easy). And yes, he can't CG you, but if you tech away, you'll tech right into a dash grab. Tech in place, you'll tech right into a SC grab. Tech towards him, you'll be caught in a pivot grab. Miss the tech, and he'll dair you. Dedede's tech chase game is at its prime in this match-up, because all of your tech options are covered by his dash speed plus his monstrous grab range. Try it. I was flabbergasted the first time I teched away from the guy. He didn't even have to reach for it. I literally teched right into his hand. Finally, he's got a **** good edgeguard. It's not too bad for ZSS, because you're much more mobile, but you really have to watch out for that bair. It's about the size of a Mack Truck, and if you get hit by it, you're completely boned.
I'm not saying the match-up is in Dedede's favor. Just be aware that he's not helpless in the match-up, and you will have to work for it. 6:4 on a good day.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Good **** but I disagree that he outcamps you. Jab the waddle dees.
Smeh
Smash Cadet
Jabbing the waddle dees refreshes?
To expand on what ph00t said:
A D3 with good DI isn't dying before 160%, even if your bair or whip is fresh. D3 is dumb heavy and has decent momentum canceling, I hit with one with a fresh dair as Link once on BF when he was at 157%, dude didn't even make it to the hoop. He takes forever to KO.
And then there's his bair gimp game. Warning: This is going to sound ********, but trust me, it works. If you some how get caught in a bair WoP offstage, and you're not as high up as you'd like to be (in other words, there's a threat of being gimped), do not jump. Do not flipjump. Just hold up and away (yes, away from the stage) until he can't hit you with bair anymore - there's going to be a point where he stops hitting you and recovers himself, to probably an edgehog. That's your opening - at that point you use your boost jump + flipstool + tether if needed. I guarantee you, 90% of the time this works to avoid D3's bair WoP gimps.
A D3 with good DI isn't dying before 160%, even if your bair or whip is fresh. D3 is dumb heavy and has decent momentum canceling, I hit with one with a fresh dair as Link once on BF when he was at 157%, dude didn't even make it to the hoop. He takes forever to KO.
And then there's his bair gimp game. Warning: This is going to sound ********, but trust me, it works. If you some how get caught in a bair WoP offstage, and you're not as high up as you'd like to be (in other words, there's a threat of being gimped), do not jump. Do not flipjump. Just hold up and away (yes, away from the stage) until he can't hit you with bair anymore - there's going to be a point where he stops hitting you and recovers himself, to probably an edgehog. That's your opening - at that point you use your boost jump + flipstool + tether if needed. I guarantee you, 90% of the time this works to avoid D3's bair WoP gimps.
I agree here, the DDD that I play against is rather hard to kill. Hes so dangerous in some of the move that can out range you. Sugarsheik is the DDD I play and I find that CG works some of the time but stunning then grabbing repeatedly works better. I noticed someone said they like to try and gimp him...HOW?
Then on to the percent he needs to get on you before death arrives.... The Utilt is SO deadly because of the way ZSS's grab works. If you mess up, he can Utilt and score an easy kill at relatively low percents. It almost seemed like when I play against DDD, the Utilt is saved as long as possible and once I am in KO percent which as we know isn't much.
I also agree with the way his grab works....he can't CG ZSS but he sure can grab you enough to ruffle your feathers a bit.
The Waddle Dees are usually not a bit deal but when he gets a gordo....oh lord it hurts 23% every time.
Thankfully we have the air mobility that gives us something to work with. If you can space right, the match can quickly turn in ZSS's favor.
Then there are the starting items. I find that with a bit of mixing up, I can score 60-80% on DDD's first stock, but I guess that could just be because of who I am playing.
So far, I am agreeing with 60:40 in favor of ZSS
NeoCrono
Smash Ace
Hmmmm, I just have really good DI. I play like the Blob...... Nothing can move teh BLOB!!
I feel as if you mess up your spacing once...... I WILL grab you and Tech chase you, which in turn will lead up to me getting you to killing %'s. then I WILL up-tilt you
I think its even, it really comes down to whoever can control the stage first can maintain control. oh, and I think we have the advantage off stage but thats just me
Off the stage you have the advantage of not getting gimped by us, but I think we have enough mobility to make sure you have a hard time gimping us.
I do agree that controlling the stage does make a big difference in either ones favor.
NeoCrono
Smash Ace
Hmmmm, I think since we have an easier time killing, plus our f-tilt clangs with your side B.
mobility wont matter if I can get a b-air off...... and how do you plan on gimping a Good D3? considering If I'm DI'ing correctly I will be living for awhile
Snakeee
Smash Master
I say up to 6/4 ZSS' favor now. She racks up damage much better than him, and it's much easier for her to hit him than the other way around. This makes up for the difference in the percentages they can be KOed. ZSS also edgeguards him extremely well. If you force him to recover onto the stage you can always at least drag him down with up B while he's doing his own.
...more on this later.
NeoCrono
Smash Ace
Sexy........... Well, its probably in your favor.
Smeh
Smash Cadet
Nice comeback.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
umm, I agree with a lot of stuff that's been said.
it's really hard to kill dedede on stage, that's why it's really really important to try to keep a b-air fresh until he's at 150%, definitely don't want him living any longer than that.
Gimping dedede can be pretty easy if they recover low imo. his horizontal aerial speed is so slow it's insanely easy to land a d-smash, which should be a guaranteed spike. And if he's over ~70% he shouldn't live from it. If he's not high enough for that, he's gonna hafta come in from straight below the edge, which is an easy drop-off bair stage spike. So dedede really wants to recover high in this match-up. But even that has the possibility of getting up-b spiked back to where he has to recover low, so eehhhh.
Uhh, last I checked you can DI the d-throw up-towards and down-b/jump/aerial before hitting the ground. Makes for a different tech chase, lol. Also, you can DI it down so that you hit the ground faster, resulting in a faster tech. just more mindgames to avoid the shenanigans.
as for getting gimped, you can recover over dedede pretty easily if I can remember correctly.
uhh, I'd prolly say 60:40 ZSS, it'd be more if there wasn't such a weight difference.
it's really hard to kill dedede on stage, that's why it's really really important to try to keep a b-air fresh until he's at 150%, definitely don't want him living any longer than that.
Gimping dedede can be pretty easy if they recover low imo. his horizontal aerial speed is so slow it's insanely easy to land a d-smash, which should be a guaranteed spike. And if he's over ~70% he shouldn't live from it. If he's not high enough for that, he's gonna hafta come in from straight below the edge, which is an easy drop-off bair stage spike. So dedede really wants to recover high in this match-up. But even that has the possibility of getting up-b spiked back to where he has to recover low, so eehhhh.
Uhh, last I checked you can DI the d-throw up-towards and down-b/jump/aerial before hitting the ground. Makes for a different tech chase, lol. Also, you can DI it down so that you hit the ground faster, resulting in a faster tech. just more mindgames to avoid the shenanigans.
as for getting gimped, you can recover over dedede pretty easily if I can remember correctly.
uhh, I'd prolly say 60:40 ZSS, it'd be more if there wasn't such a weight difference.
Commander_Beef
Smash Champion
Anyone have proof of how the matchup versus Marth is even?
From my understanding I believe it's 60:40 Marth.
From my understanding I believe it's 60:40 Marth.
Smeh
Smash Cadet
The discussion for Marth started on page 22 of this topic if you want to read up on what was said.
noradseven
Smash Lord
Im p. sure we called that match either even or closer to even then that, bunch of details back on page 22
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
I wouldnt Say Snake has the adventage, I think it 50/50.
She can outrange his Tilts with Side-B and every time he does the DACUS you can Grab him or shot.
Grab is an answer to alot in this match-up.
When Snake comes from above there isnt much how he can avoid getting grabbed on when he comes down. He's aerials are too slow and too predictable. Use more Grabs in this Match-Up and you will win !
He can camp her thats true, but Zamus is very mobile so she can get really good around all of his explosion.
The only thing which is truely in snakes favour is his weight and ZSSs slightly killing problems... slightly be smart
She can outrange his Tilts with Side-B and every time he does the DACUS you can Grab him or shot.
Grab is an answer to alot in this match-up.
When Snake comes from above there isnt much how he can avoid getting grabbed on when he comes down. He's aerials are too slow and too predictable. Use more Grabs in this Match-Up and you will win !
He can camp her thats true, but Zamus is very mobile so she can get really good around all of his explosion.
The only thing which is truely in snakes favour is his weight and ZSSs slightly killing problems... slightly
be smart
Smeh
Smash Cadet
Well, the weight problem is a huge disadvantage for ZSS, seeing as his u-tilt kills at really low percentages on stages like Pokemon Stadium which have low ceilings. Snake has good long, close, and even mid-range game. As long as the Snake keeps the pressure on, he can force ZSS either closer or further away from him to where he excels. He can outcamp her by far and his edgeguarding abilities can account for any of ZSS' recovery options. Basically, the only thing that a ZSS can do that could even make this match up close to even is to get him off the stage and keep him there, and that's not as easy as it sounds. 60/40 Snake is right.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Actually ZSS' grab is so slow that it is not a viable option at all against Snake's Dacus. The weak paralyzer shot is a good idea if you anticipate it though.
I wouldn't really say Snake outcamps her much, yet she shouldn't attempt to outcamp him either. A good pressure game while outranging him, and knowing what to expect is the way to go.
I wouldn't really say Snake outcamps her much, yet she shouldn't attempt to outcamp him either. A good pressure game while outranging him, and knowing what to expect is the way to go.
Smeh
Smash Cadet
I wish ZSS had a faster grab =(
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
From my experience tonight, just grab when he comes down, there really isnt much he can do. Maybe he tries to come from above with nades/c4 but anyway just grab him when he is at the right high and throw how him quickly away and repeat. His aerial aren't spacable at all, I wish he would have bair to the front oô (I'm Snake Main...)
I will re-do this match-up next time against another player and then I will see if grab is that effective or if it was just the players fault...
I will re-do this match-up next time against another player and then I will see if grab is that effective or if it was just the players fault...
And what if he wavebounces with a grenade (reversal B), and you miss the grab? you'll eat anything he throws at you thanks to the lag from the grab when you miss.
noradseven
Smash Lord
Yep thats how I played against snake the first time I played him, I lost, the other guy one without too much difficulty.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
even though this is entirely derailed discussion, I'll input...
grabbing snake while he is landing is actually amazing, there really is nothing he can do about it.
grabbing snake in any other situation is extremely ****ty, and will get you *****.
that is all.
grabbing snake while he is landing is actually amazing, there really is nothing he can do about it.
grabbing snake in any other situation is extremely ****ty, and will get you *****.
that is all.
Even when Snake is stunned?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Stunned Snakes can't say "no."
noradseven
Smash Lord
Whos says he wouldn't want to.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
yeess... even then.... :shiftyeyes:Even when Snake is stunned?
and doesn't anyone care about the king of dreamland!?!?
I care about DeDeDe, but is seems no one else wants to talk about him...
noradseven
Smash Lord
Dedede has one fatal flaw against ZSS, which is you can camp the **** out of him, lack of speedy dash, attack means running away over B=god.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
It seems like we're just made to counter everything he does. I think ZSS may be one of his hardest matchups, right up there with Falco, with only the ICs as more difficult.
We CG him, he can't against us. He is a character very prone to sitting in his shield, which won't work well against our range, and like Norad said, no dash attack means we can spam that **** all day.
He's huge, making him easy to combo.
He's heavy, making him harder to kill, but seeing how we will build damage quicker than normal on him, and seeing how he is easy to land a kill move on comparatively, this is less problematic than it could be.
He's kills us easily, but doesn't really have good options to set those kills up. Watch out for bair and you should be living to atleast 140 every time.
I'd put it at 60-40 to 65-35 personally
We CG him, he can't against us. He is a character very prone to sitting in his shield, which won't work well against our range, and like Norad said, no dash attack means we can spam that **** all day.
He's huge, making him easy to combo.
He's heavy, making him harder to kill, but seeing how we will build damage quicker than normal on him, and seeing how he is easy to land a kill move on comparatively, this is less problematic than it could be.
He's kills us easily, but doesn't really have good options to set those kills up. Watch out for bair and you should be living to atleast 140 every time.
I'd put it at 60-40 to 65-35 personally