Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[sasook]

The Zelda boards have already covered the matchup, you can check their matchup thread.

As for Diddy Kong, it was kind of recently discussed I think. I don't remember where.......check Snakeee's Q/A thread (not the sticky).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Diddy Kong is one of the few characters I immediately dash for a secondary to face. It isn't the hardest matchup ever or anything. It's probably 40:60 or even 45:55, but that's all on paper. One mistake from you and it's 20% or more gone faster than you can say "oooh, banana."

Suggestions for discussion next: Lucario, DDD, Pit.

 

[Nefarious B]

I'd like DDD, because on paper it seems like we can wreck him, but just like Snake I've been finding that paper doesn't always translate into gameplay, and I need more practice/knowledge in both matchups.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'd also really like for some of the matchups that have changed to be updated, like the ROB matchup which is seriously not 60:40, and Snake, who we probably pwn now.

 

[FadedImage]

Yeah, the ROB match-up probably needs to be gone over, since the threat of an infinite is rather serious, probably should be at 70:30 now.

The Snake match-up I feel hasn't changed much. It was easily 60:40 in Snake's advantage. The only thing that's changed is the f-throw chaingrab, which is situational imo.


I will also throw my vote in for Dedede.

 

[noradseven]

Snake is still a pain, but I know what to do against him at least, (cough change to sheik cough), or rainbows

Dedede is always a tricky I can normally beat the fat blob because 2 hitting over B does a number on him, because its safe on block, and his chain grab doesn't work the only problem is he can kill us really early and his back air is a nightmare, but f-smash(ohh **** f-smash useful no way), and n-air do a number on it so.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I honestly think Snake is in ZSS' favor, it's more than the chaingrab. Since that matchup was discussed the metagame has evolved a lot and ZSS doesn't really just camp and wait for openings now. The playstyle is much more aggressive and anyone one plays is going to rip them to shreds if one just stands back for side-b and paralyzer.

With that said, Snake can't do very much against an aerially aggressive ZSS. Once he's in the air we own him.

Pass the D3, plz.

 

[Nefarious B]

I think it's either 55:45 or 50-50, definitely not more than that. It's hard to accurately describe how much getting hit by ftilt sucks, and in my opinion a lot of Snake matchups don't accurately describe how fast he can wrack damage. This is definitely a matchup that needs to be practiced a lot to get comfortable staying outside of ftilt range.

I've been working on my combos and juggling to help me in the DDD and Snake matchups, because I believe that if we know how to exploit them those matchups are slightly in our favor, but the survivability gap is what keeps it close.

 

[ThreeSided]

I think the match up before the chain grab was estimated to be something like 60:40 Snake. But with the chain grab, it practically makes Zamus a snake counter, considering that I don't think it's hard to grab him. One missed tilt and he's likely to get grabbed, especially since none of his tilts or other melee moves have more range than her grab. It'd be perfect for when he's charging a Dsmash, and will grab him out of mortar-slide. At game starts, mad zoning could be done with the suit pieces: Forget about chucking them right out, throw them all up/down at different parts of the field, maybe chcuking some as they come back down. Not only would this prevent him from getting his zoning game going, but it would force a lot of shield/spot-dodge/roll, and likely put him in a good position to be grabbed for what could be a 60% lead right off the bat.

This is all theoretical, of course. But I think it's worth considering both as a tactic, and match up consideration. If she always had suit pieces, I'd give it 70:30 Zamus, at least. I just feel that those pieces absolutely **** his zoning/stage control game, and lead him right into the chain grab, if you play aggressively enough while doing it but still space well. But, because they usually only last one stock or so, I'd say that he loses just that first stock pretty good and fast. So rather than 60:40 snake like it "used to be" or 70:30 Zamus if she always had pieces,, I'd give it 60:40 in Zamuses favor, if she can space well enough.

 

[Snakeee]

The CG is great, but it's not everything. I already thought it was at least an even match up for ZSS, and the CG compliments that. She can already edgeguard him extremely well for one thing. CGing him off the stage is a perfect set up.

 

[Nefarious B]

Do you go for spikes on the edgeguard? I've been thinking, dair could spike him through his cypher and then save you from death yourself. Of course you'd be stupid to try this without having practiced, but it's a thought. I think down b is proly a bad idea, just because we're pretty susceptible to edgehogging after it's gone.

Or do you just use bair? I was thinking uair is probably not a good idea to use until Snake is back over the stage, as he wants to get high in the first place.

 

[FadedImage]

ZSS's moves just don't send him at a horizontal enough angle to allow edgeguarding. Any Snake that knows the match-up is just going to recover super super high. Best case is we get an up-air on his way down.

Also, the cg is barely anything. First off, you must grab at moderately low percents. Second, the cg only works as long as the stage, and since the fthrow goes rather far, it's probably only 3-4 grabs (unless you grabbed at the far end facing center stage, which is unlikely). Granted, it helps, and it definitely affects the match-up, just not enough to overcome a disadvantage.

Also, since when does an aggressive playstyle beat Snake? You're just going to end up getting f-tilted all day. vids mebbe?


(I'll make it D3 soon)

 

[NickRiddle]

Do you go for spikes on the edgeguard? I've been thinking, dair could spike him through his cypher and then save you from death yourself. Of course you'd be stupid to try this without having practiced, but it's a thought. I think down b is proly a bad idea, just because we're pretty susceptible to edgehogging after it's gone.

Or do you just use bair? I was thinking uair is probably not a good idea to use until Snake is back over the stage, as he wants to get high in the first place.

Snake is pretty easy to hit with d-smash if he recovers low. Otherwise, since Snake lives forever, the best thing IMHO is to just keep hitting him off with bair/fair until he's too high for you to hit him. Any % you can get is amazing.

 

[noradseven]

Snake is pretty easy to hit with d-smash if he recovers low. Otherwise, since Snake lives forever, the best thing IMHO is to just keep hitting him off with bair/fair until he's too high for you to hit him. Any % you can get is amazing.

I have actually started experimenting with chasing snake down a bit with over B, especially at the more midish percents when he is off the edge so far it seems to work fairly well, as in jump over B, second jump over B (because your recovery is safe, snake can't do anything to stop it so why not, its been something I have been doing lately with alot of the cast.

At the very least it forces an air dodge, which puts them lower on the field, making it harder for them to recover.

 

[sasook]

Forget the ftilt, its not hard to SDI out of it, I'm more concerned about the utilt. Even with really good DI, it KOs at like 90%.

I also think the CG is a little overrated. Does no one take into account how badly you'll get punished if you miss, especially against Snake of all people?

Granted, a lot of his moves aren't hard to SDI (nair, ftilt, jab combo, dair), but his attacks still hurt. He can rack up damage on us just too fast and KO way too early for this to be in ZSS's favor. Thats how I feel about it anyway.

 

[ThreeSided]

Forget the ftilt, its not hard to SDI out of it, I'm more concerned about the utilt. Even with really good DI, it KOs at like 90%.

I also think the CG is a little overrated. Does no one take into account how badly you'll get punished if you miss, especially against Snake of all people?

Granted, a lot of his moves aren't hard to SDI (nair, ftilt, jab combo, dair), but his attacks still hurt. He can rack up damage on us just too fast and KO way too early for this to be in ZSS's favor. Thats how I feel about it anyway.

I agree with the chain grab being dangerous because of it being very punishable if it's missed, but it's buffering. And fairly easy buffering/timing at that. It's a little tight, sure, but with practice, the timing can easily be done consistently.

 

[Snakeee]

I have actually started experimenting with chasing snake down a bit with over B, especially at the more midish percents when he is off the edge so far it seems to work fairly well, as in jump over B, second jump over B (because your recovery is safe, snake can't do anything to stop it so why not, its been something I have been doing lately with alot of the cast.

At the very least it forces an air dodge, which puts them lower on the field, making it harder for them to recover.

I do that sometimes, or I go for b-airs/f-airs. It's pretty easy to edgeguard Snake, and if he goes higher than you, an Up B will drag him down at least if the whole thing hits.
If he ends up lower than the stage, I simply run off and b-air. Then I quickly tether, let go of the stage, and f-air him back into the stage again

Forget the ftilt, its not hard to SDI out of it, I'm more concerned about the utilt. Even with really good DI, it KOs at like 90%.

I also think the CG is a little overrated. Does no one take into account how badly you'll get punished if you miss, especially against Snake of all people?

Granted, a lot of his moves aren't hard to SDI (nair, ftilt, jab combo, dair), but his attacks still hurt. He can rack up damage on us just too fast and KO way too early for this to be in ZSS's favor. Thats how I feel about it anyway.

Ok, how do you SDI out of the f-tilt???? I'm pretty sure that is impossible because the first hit locks you into the 2nd. And the up tilt is rough, but it's pretty hard for him to hit you with it if you play smart. Don't jump out of shield near him, and just make sure you don't approach directly above him or land that way.

The CG is amazing. Not only does it do a ton of damage, but it sends Snake offstage where ZSS' great edgeguarding can come into play. Yes, if you miss it could be big trouble, but that's why it's worth it to practice it a bit.

We're actually the better damage rackers even though Snake's attacks take away so much. His main advantage is living longer if we don't get to edgeguard too well. We're overall the better comboers.
It's also much easier for ZSS to land attacks than Snake.

 

[ThreeSided]

I do that sometimes, or I go for b-airs/f-airs. It's pretty easy to edgeguard Snake, and if he goes higher than you, an Up B will drag him down at least if the whole thing hits.
If he ends up lower than the stage, I simply run off and b-air. Then I quickly tether, let go of the stage, and f-air him back into the stage again



Ok, how do you SDI out of the f-tilt???? I'm pretty sure that is impossible because the first hit locks you into the 2nd. And the up tilt is rough, but it's pretty hard for him to hit you with it if you play smart. Don't jump out of shield near him, and just make sure you don't approach directly above him or land that way.

The CG is amazing. Not only does it do a ton of damage, but it sends Snake offstage where ZSS' great edgeguarding can come into play. Yes, if you miss it could be big trouble, but that's why it's worth it to practice it a bit.

We're actually the better damage rackers even though Snake's attacks take away so much. His main advantage is living longer if we don't get to edgeguard too well. We're overall the better comboers.
It's also much easier for ZSS to land attacks than Snake.

At the tourney I went to on Saturday I faced several snakes, and lost to them all. =\

I swear to god, the weight difference between us is RIDICULOUS. The whole game it looks like I'm ****ing ****** him, then he lands a tilt and I die first anyways. x_x

 

[ohaiduhg]

I do that sometimes, or I go for b-airs/f-airs. It's pretty easy to edgeguard Snake, and if he goes higher than you, an Up B will drag him down at least if the whole thing hits.
If he ends up lower than the stage, I simply run off and b-air. Then I quickly tether, let go of the stage, and f-air him back into the stage again



Ok, how do you SDI out of the f-tilt???? I'm pretty sure that is impossible because the first hit locks you into the 2nd. And the up tilt is rough, but it's pretty hard for him to hit you with it if you play smart. Don't jump out of shield near him, and just make sure you don't approach directly above him or land that way.

The CG is amazing. Not only does it do a ton of damage, but it sends Snake offstage where ZSS' great edgeguarding can come into play. Yes, if you miss it could be big trouble, but that's why it's worth it to practice it a bit.

We're actually the better damage rackers even though Snake's attacks take away so much. His main advantage is living longer if we don't get to edgeguard too well. We're overall the better comboers.
It's also much easier for ZSS to land attacks than Snake.

Yus.

Not to mention grenades become iffy for Snake to use with SideB spam blowing them up in his face. It's too easy to keep a Snake spaced between a wall of SideB and Neutral B and more towards ZSS she has her DTilt to put you in her aerial ****** zone. Either her Dtilt or Utilt. For some reason I can't load the frame data... But I know they are like <6 frames quick.

Snake really doesn't have any aerial attack options and if he rolls passed the wall of spammage he is susceptible to getting Dsmash'd and grabbed. Everything pressures him offstage and after he is offstage ZSS can easily Bair/Fair/SideB through his cyphon into offscreen.

 

[ThreeSided]

During the tourney, I actually had quite a bit of trouble with snakes DA. It's really fast, and has long-*** range. When I'd try to pull out a stun shot, or even a plasma whip (yes, AS I was pulling it out!) he'd snipe me out with a DA, shooting me up into the air. It was pretty annoying. =\

 

[Nefarious B]

And just to point out, when talking about matchups, details like "oh but you could mess up and get punished" aren't really relevant to the discussion. If it's able to be done by a human, then you assume that it's done. Just because someone can't do DDD's chaingrab doesn't mean it can't be done, and it seems like the fthrow CG is not even that difficult to preform consistently.

 

[ThreeSided]

And just to point out, when talking about matchups, details like "oh but you could mess up and get punished" aren't really relevant to the discussion. If it's able to be done by a human, then you assume that it's done. Just because someone can't do DDD's chaingrab doesn't mean it can't be done, and it seems like it's not even that difficult to preform consistently.

If something can be done consistently but has a certain risk factor too it, it is relevant. DDsmash to Bair can vary greatly due to the difference in knockback from the Dsmash due to %, character, and least predictably, freshness. I'd say that although we land it a great majority of the time (well, I should say me, not anyone else), I do miss a fair amount (maybe 1 in 5 times), and therefore it is relevant, at least in my case, to account for the possibility of a miss. Maybe I'm just not that great at it, I don't know, but my experience tells me that it will eventually happen. So, if given the opportunity, although I think I can do it, I would be willing to substitute.

 

[Nefarious B]

But that also involves how they DI the end of down smash. The opponent is working to mess you up. The fthrow chain is completely different because it's soley dependent on you, so it can be mastered 100%. That's my point, it's really on you how consistently you can do it.

 

[Hence]

The frame window on ZSS' buffered running grab chaingrab is ten frames. Try having a friend use Snake and hold jab everytime you're about to regrab. If they can't jab or their jab clashes with your grab then you buffered correctly. I find the CG window to be much more wide against D3 because his jab is very slow.

As Snakeee said, the chaingrab is really, really useful against Snake. IMO, it basically makes the King Dedede matchup **** though. 70:30 imo.

 

[ThreeSided]

But that also involves how they DI the end of down smash. The opponent is working to mess you up. The fthrow chain is completely different because it's soley dependent on you, so it can be mastered 100%. That's my point, it's really on you how consistently you can do it.

True. I agree with you that the Fthrow chain is much more reliable if you know how to do it. I mess up and miss the dash though. x_x

Guess I just need to practice more...

 

[noradseven]

Yeah I didn't know about the chain grab, but my main problem with snake still stems from dash attacks, they are tricky to punish and beat p. much all of our stuff in the air.

 

[sasook]

I agree with the chain grab being dangerous because of it being very punishable if it's missed, but it's buffering. And fairly easy buffering/timing at that. It's a little tight, sure, but with practice, the timing can easily be done consistently.

I had meant landing that first grab.

Ok, how do you SDI out of the f-tilt???? I'm pretty sure that is impossible because the first hit locks you into the 2nd.

You need 2 things:

1) fast fingers

2) an insane reaction time


You tap both sticks like a madman behind/into him.

I think it was Bouse who once said if you want to learn how to perfectly hit ZSS's bair every time, learn to land Zelda's lightning kicks consistently.

Likewise, if you want to become a master of DI, learn Link's recovery.


To give a visual example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfmW1-jOAqs

At 0:15, both SDI behind each other.

 

[Hence]

I had meant landing that first grab.



You need 2 things:

1) fast fingers

2) an insane reaction time


You tap both sticks like a madman behind/into him.

I think it was Bouse who once said if you want to learn how to perfectly hit ZSS's bair every time, learn to land Zelda's lightning kicks consistently.

Likewise, if you want to become a master of DI, learn Link's recovery.


To give a visual example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfmW1-jOAqs

At 0:15, both SDI behind each other.

...iiiinteresting, but are you sure that you have enough time to attack before Snake realizes you SDI'd and turns around with another F-Tilt?

 

[sasook]

You have enough time to get away from him, I believe. Maybe you don't have enough time to turn around and attack him, but I'm fairly sure you have enough time to SH airdodge away or something.

EDIT:

I might as well add on how to DI those other moves:

jab combo - tap away with both sticks

dair - tap up with both sticks and spam jump so you get out of it faster

nair - tap away with both sticks OR tap up with both sticks

EDIT 2:

watch this vid if you haven't already: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQIy7P7RWo

 

[noradseven]

I had meant landing that first grab.



You need 2 things:

1) fast fingers

2) an insane reaction time


You tap both sticks like a madman behind/into him.

I think it was Bouse who once said if you want to learn how to perfectly hit ZSS's bair every time, learn to land Zelda's lightning kicks consistently.

Likewise, if you want to become a master of DI, learn Link's recovery.


To give a visual example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfmW1-jOAqs

At 0:15, both SDI behind each other.

Zelda main in melee, and she was one of my secondaries in brawl for a while, Link yeah I play him, he rocks.

But secretly ZSS's b-air even slightly out ranges Zelda's b-air, yes her f-air and b-air are different though it may blow your mind.

 

[Nefarious B]

So you could just bait the ftilt and di behind Snake for a free grab if he continues.

 

[Honeythief]

Seems pretty dangerous. It's not just baiting and punishing, it's actually taking a hit from one of the most ****** tilts in Brawl :S You'd have to be really confident in your DI for that. I don't think it's worth the risk.

 

[sasook]

Well I'm just saying, it's not a locking move thats inescapable. Obviously avoiding it entirely would be best, but that applies to all moves.

 

[DMG]

If you get hit by the first hit of Snake's Ftilt and SDI behind him, you probably wouldn't have any time to punish him for it (your frame advantage, if any, is really small if he doesn't continue on with the Ftilt). Also if he hits you with it at near maximum range, I don't think you have enough time humanly to SDI behind him, it's only if you are a bit closer to him where it becomes more viable to do so.

 

[sasook]

Yeah that may be true. I'll test if you can just DI away if you're too far to SDI behind him if he spaces it perfectly just for rhe tip of the knee.

 

[Smeh]

I'd say it's in ZSS' favor, but no one I know plays that great of a Wario, so it's hard for me to tell.

 

[TheZeroSuit]

KING DEDEDE

King Dedede's Thread

from Orion's:

DeDeDe. ZSS has an advantage over DDD because she is faster,out ranges dedede(side B, I personally think jumping side B is useful), Dedede relies on an up close game besides the waddle dees. DDD is a good matchup for marth since he relies on being close.

But ZSS is fast and DDD is slow, and side B out ranges his F-tilt. Another reason she has an advantage is because ZSS cannot be chain throw by DDD, if you DI properly then it will fail after the first attempt. This limits DDD options for offense(Or rather shield grabs)
Because of this, you can take more risk up close as you may be block and thrown but not chain throwed.

In summary
1.She outranges DDD
2.She is faster
3. She can't be chain throwed by DDD(this is probably the biggest issue)

Against DDD

Out range him with side B, Wavebounce Side B, and short hops side B, and short hop landing side B. Throw him when he whiff an attack(F-tilt a good attack to capitalize on a throw if they whiff).Remember she has the longest throw in the game with the dashing shield grab. Space DDD out with Side B and stun gun and punish when he whiffs. You can also take some risks when you are up close since he can't chain throw you. Be careful of his U tilt as well.

Alright guys, another important match-up against the top tiers, let the discussion roll.

 

[ph00tbag]

Dedede's a weird one. I'll get my impressions on the matchup later. I just wanted to mention this.

If you get hit by the first hit of Snake's Ftilt and SDI behind him, you probably wouldn't have any time to punish him for it (your frame advantage, if any, is really small if he doesn't continue on with the Ftilt).

If it's more than a three frame advantage, we're golden.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I saw this on the Peach forums and it works wonders for ZSS as well:

If D3 tries to outcamp you with Waddle Dees, don't approach. Just jab, it refreshes your moves. Each time he throws a WD, jab it. Just hold A.

D3 is a definitive 60:40 for ZSS. We outcamp, he's a pretty big target, and is very easy to combo at low percents. There are a few things you should look out for. For a more in-depth look at the D3 playstyle, click this link (created by wellwisherelf): http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/wellwisherelf/DDDFLOW2.jpg?t=1242203035

 

[ThreeSided]

I saw this on the Peach forums and it works wonders for ZSS as well:

If D3 tries to outcamp you with Waddle Dees, don't approach. Just jab, it refreshes your moves. Each time he throws a WD, jab it. Just hold A.

D3 is a definitive 60:40 for ZSS. We outcamp, he's a pretty big target, and is very easy to combo at low percents. There are a few things you should look out for. For a more in-depth look at the D3 playstyle, click this link (created by wellwisherelf): http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/wellwisherelf/DDDFLOW2.jpg?t=1242203035

Dedede's match up with ZSS is in ZSS's favor, I agree, but I feel we are saying it for the wrong reasons.

His Ftilt clangs with our Side-b, so if he sees it coming, he can stop it, out ranged or not, though I'm not sure if the SH>sideB will make contact with the Ftilt if he tries. The waddle dees can come fast, and are good for stopping our aerial approaches. D3 may not be fast, but he is fast enough that if he PSs the side-b, he can use his huge grab range to grab us during the move lag. The match up, in reality, is even, (about 55:45, probably in ZSS's favor) EXCEPT for ONE THING.

She chain grabs him. Up to 60%. =P And let's face it, D3's not exactly the hardest character to grab in the game. And since the Fthrow chain grab will get him off the stage, what with our massively superior aerial game and his slow-*** multiple jumps, we can easily gimp or even spike him.

Because of this, I'd say the match up is 65:35 - 70:30 Zero Suit.