Official SWF Tier List v8

[Dekillsage]

There is no way Snake is better than Diddy. Snake does better than Diddy in the lowr tiers but Diddy does better at the top where it counts. Falco is probably better than marth though

Diddy kinda does the same. His match up vs MK is waaaaayyyyy better though(probably)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy does better against Olimar, Marth and Pikachu

 

[ぱみゅ]

You listed Marth twice. And Marth goes evenish against both.
Also Snake has a better matchup against ICs.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Marth slightly loses to Diddy and slightly beats Snake. ICs goes even with both

 

[pidgezero_one]

i FEEL LIKe this thread is like one of those machines that does a thing and then it does that thing again but you forgot it did that thing once already

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy does better against Olimar, Marth and Pikachu

Diddy doesn't do better against Olimar and Marth than Snake does. Diddy loses to Olimar and is even with Marth whereas Snake is even against both. Snake also does better against IC, beats Diddy, does not do worse than Diddy against Falco, does better vs Wario and doesn't do worse vs ZSS. DDD and Pikachu are the only characters that Diddy does better against than Snake. Also, Diddy cannot beat MK - Snake can. Snake is a better character than Diddy.

 

[-LzR-]

How is Snake able to beat MK if Diddy can't? Then again no one really can beat an MK except another MK, but I would see them both being one of the best in terms of not losing to him.

 

[TreK]

I just wanted to say that I don't know who had the idea to have the community poll completed BEFORE the E3 trailer and the great surge in new members that goes with it... But I thank him wholeheartedly.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Snake goes even with Olimar ?

 

[-LzR-]

Of course he does, Gheb said so and he is always right without having to explain why.

 

[Gardex]

One of the few absurd things I actually agree with Gheb about

and I feel terrible because of it

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy doesn't do better against Olimar and Marth than Snake does. Diddy loses to Olimar and is even with Marth whereas Snake is even against both. Snake also does better against IC, beats Diddy, does not do worse than Diddy against Falco, does better vs Wario and doesn't do worse vs ZSS. DDD and Pikachu are the only characters that Diddy does better against than Snake. Also, Diddy cannot beat MK - Snake can. Snake is a better character than Diddy.

Snake dosen't have the tools to go even with or beat the characters you mentioned except ICs which is probably even and Wario which seems like it can go either way. Haven't really seen ZSS/Snake top level play but Diddy probably has a slight advantage against her. I doubt Snake can do much better. Diddy has the tools to fight MK unlike Snake.

Snake is just really easy to platform camp and once opponents learn how to SDI, Snake has a harder time racking up damage. He also can't really do anything OOS without having to shield drop.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Snake dosen't have the tools to go even with or beat the characters you mentioned except ICs which is probably even and Wario which seems like it can go either way. Haven't really seen ZSS/Snake top level play but Diddy probably has a slight advantage against her. I doubt Snake can do much better. Diddy has the tools to fight MK unlike Snake.

Snake is just really easy to platform camp and once opponents learn how to SDI, Snake has a harder time racking up damage. He also can't really do anything OOS without having to shield drop.

After seeing V115 dismantle Diddy Kongs like Zinoto and Player 1 I can't see the MU being in Diddy's favour

To me it seems like the kind of MU that's completely even, but then when one player knows the MU better it swings to +3 in his/her favour.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

After seeing V115 dismantle Diddy Kongs like Zinoto and Player 1 I can't see the MU being in Diddy's favour

Yeah but ADHD has a positive record vs Salem.

 

[Aidebit]

Yeah but ADHD has a positive record vs Salem.

ADHD lost the last time they played. And all of ADHD's wins are pre-APEX IIRC.

 

[infiniteV115]

The ZSS Diddy MU is either even or 55:45 in Diddy's favour

 

[SaveMeJebus]

ADHD lost the last time they played. And all of ADHD's wins are pre-APEX IIRC.

A positive record is a positive record. I mean it's not like his wins were from 08.

 

[FourStar]

A positive record is a positive record. I mean it's not like his wins were from 08.

i feel like too many people rely on salem for ZSS's metagame. yes he did change it. ALOT. but that doesn't mean he is the soul metagame for her. there are still good ZSS out there like nick riddle and Dazwa. its like how people base ESAM for pika's metagame even though there are like hundreds of other pika mains out there.

sorry just a little rant time. carry on with your lives

 

[Player-1]

Me and V are 1-1 btw, once in tournament and once in MM. I'd like to play against more ZSS's that aren't DRN who knows how I play before I say the MU is definite, but I'd say the MU is very slightly in Diddy's favor, but I've been starting to lean towards even lately. I'd say ZSS is definitely top 3 in the game with bananas, she has the same frame data as diddy's item throws with a long glidetoss and moves such as dsmash that are almost perfectly safe on shield.

I feel like the Diddy-MK MU is almost -2 (keep in mind Apex ruleset), but only if MK plays the MU right/perfectly which no MK does cuz they're all bad.
IMO, Diddy goes even with ICs, loses to Olimar, goes even with marth, loses slightly to snake but it's almost even, loses to falco, pika and ZSS are probably about the same difficulty maybe ZSS slightly harder. Pika's platform control/pressure on Diddy is really good so it's kinda stage dependent. Diddy loses to wario, and this might sound kind of absurd to some people, but I think he loses to Pit (still keeping in mind with Apex stage list) if the Pit goes for the timeout. Pit's run away game from Diddy is really good and when he does come into those situations where he has to fight diddy his multiple jumps + palutena wings helps him stay off the ground away from bananas and his frame data is pretty fast and can definitely compete with diddy up close.

I think Snake's MU spread is pretty close to Diddy's, I think they could probably be interchangeable. I think Snake's MUs are a bit more polarizing than Diddy's, Olimar definitely beats Snake harder than Diddy and then Pikachu can be argued for -2.

 

[infiniteV115]

there are still good ZSS out there like nick riddle and Dazwa.

See this is why nobody takes you seriously XD

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah but ADHD has a positive record vs Salem.

No, he doesn't.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

G&W isn't overrated, and his MU vs. ICs is nowhere near as bad as people think.

It's a shame MK wrecks him though.

 

[Tesh]

kind of sad how interesting the metagame can look without mk

most of that stuff you said p1 doesnt ever matter because viability vs mk is more than half the game.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

HOLD ON A SECOND!

Are we actually discussion relevant characters for once?

WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THIS THREAD???!?!?!!?!??!

 

[Aidebit]

HOLD ON A SECOND!

Are we actually discussion relevant characters for once?

WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THIS THREAD???!?!?!!?!??!

What are you talking about? Snake isn't relevant.

 

[Luigi player]

Marth vs Diddy is even, because juggles and gimps.

 

[Luco]

most of that stuff you said p1 doesnt ever matter because viability vs mk is more than half the game.

Why did this have to be brought up? XD

 

[Dekillsage]

G&W isn't overrated, and his MU vs. ICs is nowhere near as bad as people think.

It's a shame MK wrecks him though.

It is though lol.

kind of sad how interesting the metagame can look without mk

most of that stuff you said p1 doesnt ever matter because viability vs mk is more than half the game.

#SoftBanMK2013

 

[Player-1]

kind of sad how interesting the metagame can look without mk

most of that stuff you said p1 doesnt ever matter because viability vs mk is more than half the game.

like I said, diddy mk is probably almost -2 if every MK wasn't bad. Every time Diddy gets put off stage it should be a stock.

 

[FourStar]

See this is why nobody takes you seriously XD

what are you talking about? is it cuz i didn't metion you? i'm sorry but i didn't even know you were a ZSS. so if that's what you lookking for my bad

 

[da K.I.D.]

i remember there was this one guy, from like texas or something, about 3 years ago. he was so confident that diddy got wrecked by MK, that as a diddy main he picked up mk, under the opinion that if a player with intimate diddy knowledge were to play MK, that mk would pretty much destroy every diddy forever.

I forgot that guys name, he was a cool dude.

 

[Luigi player]

Every time Diddy gets put off stage it should be a stock.

not really. in theory it could be like that if the mk predicts right, but he has to guess how you go or have inhuman reaction time.
in reality Diddy makes it back pretty often. It's just really scary for Diddy because he could lose the stock if the MK guesses right

 

[da K.I.D.]

In most situations It really doesnt require impossible reactions. unless reacting to monkey flip is impossible... sure its hard, but inhuman reaction time is just not true.

 

[Player-1]

Most of the time we're left in a scenario where there is two paths:
1. Die
2. Get hit by MK, resets the situation

We just have to keep going to the second one until the MK messes up.

 

[Espy Rose]

You kinda summarized all of Meta Knight's match ups with that post.

 

[DeLux]

Nope, just get better at the MU imo

 

[Luigi player]

often the odds are in diddys favor when he's recovering. him letting go of upB is not that easy to predict. the chance is there to gimp him, but he can survive.
of course there are situations where it's really bad for him and he shouldn't make it. but you can't just say "well if the mk is perfect". that doesn't work. nobody is perfect.
in reality diddy makes it back pretty often. I guess every MK player is bad then. no normal human can gimp a diddy 100 % of the time. it's pretty much impossible. that's like saying "well, if one plays perfect enough, he could theoretically never get hit and jv 4 stock his opponent". saying that would be almost the same as saying MK should gimp Diddy every time he's offstage.

reality has shown that there is no MK that is so perfect how people say he "could" be. and at this stage of the game it's pretty safe to say there won't ever be. unless there suddenly appears someone that can read minds/has a superhyper reaction time and stuff.

I don't get why people still aren't over that MK is so overpowered bull****.

 

[Dekillsage]

I like when people say they'll die when MK guesses right.

Lol @ mk having to make guesses.

 

[Player-1]

I guess every MK player is bad then.

yes, that is what I said

which no MK does cuz they're all bad.

if every MK wasn't bad.

 

[infiniteV115]

what are you talking about? is it cuz i didn't metion you? i'm sorry but i didn't even know you were a ZSS. so if that's what you lookking for my bad

No, it's because you mentioned Dazwa lmao