Official SWF Tier List v8

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sonic is if anything, underrated, if only slightly. The only reason he stopped placing well is cuz all his players quit.

However I'd like to say straight-up that I think Sheik is completely unexplored as a character. There are good Sheik players, I don't mean them any disrespect... but Sheik, despite her flaws, is a character just sort of waiting to happen. There's so much mix-up potential there, she's just so non-linear as a character. Sheik is a character you can do stuff with.

 

[infiniteV115]

SSheik is a character you can do stuff with.

You mean...like...lose?

 

[NickRiddle]

Sheik ****ing sucks.
Great frame data, **** kill potential, **** recovery, strings that work on a couple of characters if you add SDI into the mix, mediocre projectile, mediocre range, susceptible to combos in ****ing Brawl...
I mean, she has a good walk though.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think Sheik is overall better than G&W. She can force an approach. He can't. She can also rack up damage pretty quickly. Sheik players just really need to wait for the ko to come on its own instead of trying to force it

Also, g&w is way too high.

 

[FourStar]

sheik's decent but the problem is that no one wants to pick her up

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sonic is if anything, underrated, if only slightly. The only reason he stopped placing well is cuz all his players quit.

However I'd like to say straight-up that I think Sheik is completely unexplored as a character. There are good Sheik players, I don't mean them any disrespect... but Sheik, despite her flaws, is a character just sort of waiting to happen. There's so much mix-up potential there, she's just so non-linear as a character. Sheik is a character you can do stuff with.

Sheik is a character you can do things with...

offensively.

when it comes to defensive options, she has honestly one of the worst combinations of movesets and attributes in the entire game. Her trying to get down to the ground once shes in the air is like playing fox or wolf, but without the airspeed, invincible counter, solid down air, or stalling shine.

 

[Tesh]

I dont know seagull. Ness could be better than Sonic. I think Ness and Sonic should be a good bit higher than they are though.

 

[smashkng]

I don't think Sheik's defense is that bad. I mean, she still has pretty decent OoS options. But maybe shielding is really her only good thing defensively. Sheik can punish a lot of stuff, the problem is that the reward for punishing is poor, just like with Sonic. When she hits it's like just tickling the opponent. It can be good in one way (she strings pretty well which helps rack up damage fast) and bad in another way (not being able to kill until really late). In Sheik's case, it's clear that the bad part outweights the good part of little knockback on her moves, cause Sheik herself is very light and has a pretty bad vertical momentum cancel while not having the best gimping game. Sheik can also get gimped at times too I guess.
But yeah she's pretty easy to juggle and her options to get out of the ledge suck. Fast, long and disjointed moves are difficult for her to deal with because Sheik herself has mediocre range and no disjoints. That is also a reason why a lot of her moves are easily shield grabbed by characters with a decent grab range and speed, especially when her moves get PS'd. So she has to rely a lot on grabs to beat shields against such characters. Her really ****ing good dash grab (which can be extended even more with boost grabs) makes up for it slightly though, but not completely cause you obviously can't grab in the air and her reward for grabbing is only ok at best (it can set up some of her other moves, but those moves don't do too much unless you're already at a % when things like Bair kill, which is like 160-170% on average weight characters).

I think Sheik is an ok character. I think she has potential to rise a few places in the tier list. She has one of the better MK MUs as a mid tier (she may actually have some ok change of being able to beat an MK of the same level). There are Sheiks in Japan who place pretty decently which is really hard in a country like Japan.

 

[FredFuchs]

is shiek underrated? maybe slightly. better than g&w? no.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I don't think Sheik's defense is that bad. I mean, she still has pretty decent OoS options. But maybe shielding is really her only good thing defensively. Sheik can punish a lot of stuff, the problem is that the reward for punishing is poor, just like with Sonic. When she hits it's like just tickling the opponent. It can be good in one way (she strings pretty well which helps rack up damage fast) and bad in another way (not being able to kill until really late). In Sheik's case, it's clear that the bad part outweights the good part of little knockback on her moves, cause Sheik herself is very light and has a pretty bad vertical momentum cancel while not having the best gimping game. Sheik can also get gimped at times too I guess.
But yeah she's pretty easy to juggle and her options to get out of the ledge suck. Fast, long and disjointed moves are difficult for her to deal with because Sheik herself has mediocre range and no disjoints. That is also a reason why a lot of her moves are easily shield grabbed by characters with a decent grab range and speed, especially when her moves get PS'd. So she has to rely a lot on grabs to beat shields against such characters. Her really ****ing good dash grab (which can be extended even more with boost grabs) makes up for it slightly though, but not completely cause you obviously can't grab in the air and her reward for grabbing is only ok at best (it can set up some of her other moves, but those moves don't do too much unless you're already at a % when things like Bair kill, which is like 160-170% on average weight characters).

I think Sheik is an ok character. I think she has potential to rise a few places in the tier list. She has one of the better MK MUs as a mid tier (she may actually have some ok change of being able to beat an MK of the same level). There are Sheiks in Japan who place pretty decently which is really hard in a country like Japan.

I do not get where you are saying about this bad momentum canceling. She has one of the better ones due to her fast fall speed. Little knockback doesn't mean much on moves. If Sheik hits you with utilt you might not take much damage for knockback from it, but you are still in a bad spot. And sheik can keep you in the air for awhile. Drawback is actually finishing out a stock.


I always thought Sheik simply had to use her movement to get around characters as her defense strategy. She certainly is not going to be out-ranging another character typically. This leaves her only with not being in the opponents zone for being hit which I think she can do. There are a number of nice traits she has to help with that sort of play. For one, she is a small target when crouched and also can move during it. This is helpful for countering a number of things in the game such as aerials from the ledge or if under platforms. A fast, yet still short dash. This is great for getting out of range quickly, but still close enough to punish a mistake from the opponent.

After she can get in on an opponent, she can rack up damage fairly well. Ftilt while not a lock on all characters I believe is at least a true set-up for things like Utilt or Nair. Add in charged needles for a nice damage bonus she can get your percent up fairly high. Plus, there are some nice specialized match-ups that help her.

 

[ぱみゅ]

*coughcoughSheildacough*

 

[FourStar]

LOL i feel like the mid tier is argued about way more than the top tier

 

[Aidebit]

That's because the mid tier is a lot more ambiguous than the top tier, because no one uses them. For example, MK is the agreed best, Ice Climbers, Olimar and Diddy are the next three. Snake is better than Marth, ZSS is top tier, Wario sucks but doesn't suck enough to be high tier, and Pikachu can be anywhere below Marth.
With Mid Tier, a lot of characters are arguably exchangeable. (Maybe not the lower ones though.)

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

LOL i feel like the mid tier is argued about way more than the top tier

That's because mid tier is more interesting to talk about.

anyway on the topics that have been discussed recently Sonic should be 3 spots higher and Sheik should be 4 spots higher, and Sheilda should be off the list because she's stupid (or just replace her with Ed, who afaik is the only person who uses both), and GW, D3, TL and Lucario should be in their own tier below Pika/ZSS/ Wario but above Pit/Wolf/Peach

Bottom tier should be split up

Fox, as always, should be Z tier

Tier list imo:
MK tier:
SS: Meta Knight
Top:
S: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy Kong
A: Marth, Snake, Falco
High:
B: Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario
C: Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link, Mr. Game & Watch
Mid:
D: Wolf, Fox, Pit, R.O.B., Sonic, Peach
E: Sheik, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Ike, Ness, Yoshi
Low:
F: Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas
G: Mario, Samus, Bowser,
Bottom:
H: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf
Z: Fox

 

[Aidebit]

That's because mid tier is more interesting to talk about.

anyway on the topics that have been discussed recently Sonic should be 3 spots higher and Sheik should be 4 spots higher, and Sheilda should be off the list because she's stupid (or just replace her with Ed, who afaik is the only person who uses both), and GW, D3, TL and Lucario should be in their own tier below Pika/ZSS/ Wario but above Pit/Wolf/Peach

Bottom tier should be split up

Fox, as always, should be Z tier

Tier list imo:
MK tier:
SS: Meta Knight
Top:
S: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy Kong
A: Marth, Snake, Falco
High:
B: Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario
C: Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link, Mr. Game & Watch
Mid:
D: Wolf, Fox, Pit, R.O.B., Sonic,Peach
E: Sheik, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Ike, Ness, Yoshi
Low:
F: Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas
G: Mario, Samus, Bowser,
Bottom:
H: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf
Z: Fox

Fox is too high.

 

[Death Arcana]

As in Thats where Zs fox would be

 

[pidgezero_one]

you got it all wrong, he's not z tier, he's just in sector z

 

[FourStar]

That's because mid tier is more interesting to talk about.
Fox, as always, should be Z tier

Tier list imo:
MK tier:
SS: Meta Knight
Top:
S: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Diddy Kong
A: Marth, Snake, Falco
High:
B: Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario
C: Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link, Mr. Game & Watch
Mid:
D: Wolf, Fox, Pit, R.O.B., Sonic,Peach
E: Sheik, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Ike, Ness, Yoshi
Low:
F: Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas
G: Mario, Samus, Bowser,
Bottom:
H: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf
Z: Fox

do you really think Fox is THAT BAD? i personally love fox and pull him out when i have trouble with char that have a bad MU for my pika. yes he has some major knockback issues but it can really be over looked. plus he still has one of the strongest usmashes and uair in the game

 

[Aidebit]

its a joke

 

[Death Arcana]

loool
ya he's bad enough that he has 2 spots

 

[FourStar]

its a joke

yeah i couldn't tell. but either way i think fox is better than wolf and G&W to allow him to move to the c tier. but that's just what i think

 

[FredFuchs]

i don't mean to deviate from the conversation at hand, but how is the v3 mu chart going? i'm assuming that there's major disagreements in the panels. on a fox related note, is there any video of the fox v shiek mu? i know it's supposed to be bad, but i wanna see how bad it is for fox.

 

[Sunnysunny]

i don't mean to deviate from the conversation at hand, but how is the v3 mu chart going? i'm assuming that there's major disagreements in the panels.

Nahhh, nothing like that~
All the new MU's are set in stone now.

All that's left is putting the finishing touches on the chart. Should be made public pretty soon~

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's because the mid tier is a lot more ambiguous than the top tier, because no one uses them. For example, MK is the agreed best, Ice Climbers, Olimar and Diddy are the next three. Snake is better than Marth, ZSS is top tier, Wario sucks but doesn't suck enough to be high tier, and Pikachu can be anywhere below Marth.

Snake is better than Diddy Kong and Falco is better than Marth.

 

[Aidebit]

Snake is better than Diddy Kong and Falco is better than Marth.

Never said that Falco was worse.

Love the arcanine

 

[smashkng]

This is what I did 3 years ago http://smashboards.com/threads/vr-training-a-guide-to-using-solid-snake.268454/page-2#post-10025396
You can see that Sheik dies pretty early to Snake's Utilt. But http://smashboards.com/threads/internal-character-mechanics-values.244329/
Weird. Her fast fall is still good. So now when I think it, out of those lighter than Sheik, only Pikachu, Falco and Fox, the three having a faster FF than Sheik, live longer vertically than Sheik. It is clear that she still dies pretty early, even vertically, though. Also Eryx I did say that low knockback can be good for strings to rack up damage fast, which is of course a fact in Sheik's case. I think her bait and punish game can work pretty well against longer ranged characters, except when those characters have a low amount of cooldown on those long ranged moves, which are usually top tiers like Marth or Olimar. And then she may struggle a bit getting in against them.

@ her short dash. I think she actually has the shortest dash animation in the game, that also means that she has the game's best dash to shield. Her great ground mobility helps with getting in and messing up spacing. Which sounds a lot like an option Marth has when he approaches, except without the disjointed moves that can be thrown out relatively safely, usually making Sheik have to rely on the opponent commiting first. So it seems like Sheik still has to take some risks when approaching most top tiers characters while playing some guessing game, which isn't as reliable as having a good zoning game with hitboxes.

 

[Luco]

The burden of proof is always on the part of the people who are trying to change the current status quo. When sonic was listed as the 5th worst character in the game. It was up to the Sonic players to proof that he needed to be moved and that he wasn't bottom tier. Now that he is mid tier, it is up to the haters to prove that he should be moved back down. Thats how it works, and thats how its always worked. You dont just get to say 'ok were going to move this character because theres no valid reason to stay where he is, even though theres also no valid reason for him to move either.'

Heh, I concede so much that this can't come as much but that's a good point and it's making me think a lot.

 

[Ghostbone]

Snake is better than Diddy Kong and Falco is better than Marth.

This is true.

Snake became suddenly underrated when Ally quit him, he's still top 4 imo...

 

[lami]

This is true.

Snake became suddenly underrated when Ally quit him, he's still top 4 imo...

False quit Snake, too. Luckily Ally still plays Snake. And he's still just as enjoyable to watch.

 

[FourStar]

why are people just giving up on snake though?

 

[NickRiddle]

Because he's bad.

 

[da K.I.D.]

same reason people dont like playing dk. few people are willing to just get beat on like that. Even if they do end up winning at the end.

 

[Dekillsage]

Snake is better than Diddy Kong and Falco is better than Marth.

Yup

False quit Snake, too. Luckily Ally still plays Snake. And he's still just as enjoyable to watch.

False was a good snake?

why are people just giving up on snake though?

It's easier to play other characters.

Because he's bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hYJhTJseA90#t=146s

 

[M15t3R E]

Sheik (and PT) are characters I use against my more casual brawl friends so that I can actually try and not beat them toooo badly since I don't like to sandbag.
Horray for mediocre characters!!!

 

[Z'zgashi]

I play Bowser when I want to win.

 

[FourStar]

i mean i still feel like snake is still good. but is he really that bad cuz i really don't know why

 

[Psychoace]

http://youtu.be/1UQ9uUkhdQw?t=1m51s


false sux

 

[Djent]

It was funny to see people start underrating Snake around the same time they started dickriding Japan. Because you know, Snake actually does really well internationally.

Fortunately, 2013 has seen both trends dying back a bit. Snake still gets underrated, but seeing some people putting him around 4th-5th (where he should be IMO) makes me happy.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Snake is better than Diddy Kong and Falco is better than Marth.

There is no way Snake is better than Diddy. Snake does better than Diddy in the lowr tiers but Diddy does better at the top where it counts. Falco is probably better than marth though

 

[Aidebit]

Sheik (and PT) are characters I use against my more casual brawl friends so that I can actually try and not beat them toooo badly since I don't like to sandbag.
Horray for mediocre characters!!!

PT isn't mediocre. He's bad.