Official SWF Tier List v8

[Psychoace]

Every Ike i've seen vs falco uses dash attack a lot against him. Even when falco is trying to recover.

 

[da K.I.D.]

yea, it sends at a great angle. especially against space animals and expecially if you happen to be holding down at the time for whatever reason (It does happen)

 

[Z'zgashi]

http://strawpoll.me/92299

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I doubt anyone is actually going to read this lol

You play falco and you are afraid when people are next to you? Stop it with that. You have one of the best jabs in the game along with the ability to choose between doing only the first or two/3 parts of jab. Your grab isn't slow either and your spotdodge is ridiculous. Falco is best up close, stop playing him like a zoner.

Falco has the walk speed to make up for this. Even if it takes a while to set up(doesn't even take that long) he can shoot and walk towards with his lazer that hit your shield.

With ike? It's not slow?. You'd think the second you see ike input dash falco would stop and assume he's going to 1)dash attack 2)dash grab 3)dash block jab/grab mix up and react accordingly.

Yo whats with you guys thinking falco can't fight people up close when his tools are better than snakes? I don't understand lol

Being afraid isn't something relevant to a Falco/Ike match-up nor what I wanted to imply at all. Its a player thing someone has to get around if they are nervous up close anyway. So again, the idea of being afraid to fight up close is NOT what I am trying to convey at all.

I am simply trying to point out that Ike can box with Falco at near the same level. Yes, Falco has some very good assets in the form of his jab and spot dodge. The problem is that each of them can be beaten out depending upon what Ike does. If you attempt to go for say a jab -> grab or jab -> ftilt. Ike could have buffered an input for a jab and hit you before the ftilt or grab came out. Similar situation with jab2 -> something. If you try spot dodging at the wrong time you can get jab'd out of it. Then Ike still has the bread and butter dodges, grab, and shield you have to mix in altogether as well.

Falco will win some bouts up close, but he can easily lose them as well against Ike. This is where I think the match-up ends up being fairly even. Falco will not be able to fully shut down Ike like Falco can against other characters up close. Again, after falco loses one of these up close bouts he is launched and Ike with his disjoint can deal with Falco's methods of recovery rather well.

@Ike Dash attack. 18 total frames if you include the one frame needed to initiate the dash before the hitbox is active. Also, Falco is in the air for a total of 45 frames. This is long enough for Ike to react to a short hop, then initiate a dash attack and still hit Falco. However, if Falco is doing it right, he'll adjust his action at the height of the short hop once he sees the spacing and what Ike is doing (SHDL is bad. SH -> react -> action is best). So, an aerial or air dodge is enough to beat or trade with dash attack. However, an attempt at lasers will be beaten. Just think of it like Snake' dash attack for catching landings, but not as great.

Finally, I do not think Falco is incapable of fighting up close. I just realize that his abilities up close are not all godly in every match-up. Against Ike, its good, but not godly. Also, depending upon the character and the hitbox of jab1, Snake's Jab1 -> ftilt is a true combo.

I have a hypothesis: most players are not good at close range. Playing well at close range is difficult and takes a clear head and focus of thought. I think it's becoming less and less possible to play Falco by spamming lasers because players are getting good at getting around it, and that most Falco players are falling off because their laser cheese isn't working as well anymore.

The reason good Falco players like Larry have stayed relevant is frankly because they are good boxers. When their zoning stops working, they're still scary.

Up close involves too many random variables some times. With this game, jab cancel mix-ups are not guaranteed and you have player by player things you have to deal with. As I said before and by 1pokemastr, falco's jab1 and jab2 (depending upon the character) leads to typically a 0 to -4 disadvantage. Other characters have it worse or as good. Anyway, because of that disadvantage at times your attempt at a follow up like grab or another jab can be completely thwarted by say a buffered move from the opponent or buffered spot dodge or powershield. And things like jab -> grab is not something you can choose to react on once you try using jab. You just have to throw it out there and hope it works or not. The only safe things in this game typically are jab -> shield (to avoid attacks or go straight into one of the dodges). Or something like MK's spaced Dtilt or SH Fair.

People who want to play a "zoner" who kills early should be playing Olimar and not Falco.
Falco's not a zoner, he just has a projectile.

What do you mean by zoning anyway. Its seems too subjective to be using right now. To me, I view your usage of zoning as someone who is trying to use higher disjointed attacks to beat out an opponents methods of getting closer or just plan avoid attacks by spacing yourself at the right distance.

Someone like Marth, MK, or Olimar fits that idea I suppose. But, every character acts on this principle at some point or many times a match. Say at some point: Falco can either A) jab or B) walk backwards to avoid incoming attack, then turn around Ftilt/Dash attack. The later option to me seems like this idea of zoning you have brought up a couple of times

So it beats Sh double lazer, but not single? I see it winning, but the question is why is falco still doing it when Ike can dash attack? and also whether or not Ike can do it if he had blocked or got hit by a lazer already. Seems like a neutral game thing where falco is just starting to do sh lazers and ike already stopped him before he got started.

The reason Dash attack is "beating" anything is because Falco has chosen to commit to something. Using lasers puts falco in some start-up lag that he cannot get out of. SHDL is particularly bad for this because if you do laser at the height of the jump, Falco cannot do ANYTHING at all other than finish the laser animation by the time he gets to the ground. So, dash attack is a tool to prevent this commitment to using lasers prematurely. Due to the tool of dash attack, Falco has to be either at a farther distance to ensure safety of not being hit out of laser attempts, or he has to start out with a shorthop, react and assess the situation by the time he gets to the peak of the short hop, then carry out his best option after this anaylsis period. Without this little bit of reacting in your short hop withing Ike Dash attack range, you reach being beaten and hit out of your short hop.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Sounds more like electric property than priority.

Technically couldn't we consider that a type of priority? If Olimar's upsmash beats Pikachu's down air, then Olimar's up smash has priority over Pikachu's down air.

Priority doesnt really exist in brawl

pls

Priority absolutely, totally, 100% exists in Brawl.

1. The 9% Rule

A non-transcendent move when pitted against another non-transcendent move will clash, unless the damage difference between moves is over 9%. For example, a fully charged Samus Charge Shot will beat out Zero Suit Samus's Jab 1 because the difference between base damage is over 9%. However a fully charged Ganondorf forward smash will beat out a half charged Charge Shot and Ganondorf will continue with his forward smash as if the Charge Shot never happened.​

2. Aerials vs. aerials

This is a weird one, aerials can clash if they aren't transcendent, but cannot be cancelled so it comes down to which hitboxes are overlapping the enemy's hurtboxes. Aerials trade unless they're disjointed enough to hit the opponents hurtbox while not endangering their own. Example, Zero Suit Samus is renowned for having a stupidly disjointed up aerial, with proper spacing (and being underneath the opponent of course), it's possible to beat out every other aerial in the game by hitting enemy hurtboxes with the disjointed part of her up air.​

3. Aerial vs grounded

With the exception of a certain few aerial moves, aerial attacks and grounded moves have no interaction with each other and will trade under most circumstances.​

4. Transcendence

This is a state of whether a hitbox can clash or not. Non-disjointed transcendent hitboxes (especially multi-hit) are usually very bad since it's easy to hit the hurtboxes. On the flip side, disjointed transcendent hitboxes are excellent since they usually will beat out other hitboxes by going straight to the opponents hurtbox (example, MK's down smash is fast and disjointed and transcendent, his down smash will beat out, say, Fox's because Fox's legs are hurtboxes, while MK's sword is not). This is why Zelda is so bad and Meta Knight is so good.​

​

Example: Zelda uses neutral aerial, almost anyone can trade attacks with this because of how small the hitboxes are and because it's multi-hit. If Peach trades neutral aerials with Zelda, assuming Peach doesn't simply outright beat Zelda's attack, they will trade. Peach will take 3%, while Zelda will take 14%.​

5. B Moves

These act like grounded moves. Special mention goes to Tornado which cannot be cancelled because it's technically an aerial. It can be beaten out though by the 9% rule or by hitting him with an aerial that doesn't hit his tornado hitboxes. I think.​

6. Invincibility and intangibility

The absolute God of priority. These moves literally cannot ever be beaten out. Very few of these moves are in Brawl, however some moves have certain areas of a character that are rendered intangible or invincible during them. I'll list a few examples:​

​

Spoiler

Examples of whole body intangibility:​

​

Wolf's Down B​

Zelda's Neutral B​

Meta Knight's Grounded Up B​

Bowser's Up B​

​

Examples of part body intangibility:​

​

Zelda's Down Smash on her leg and knee​

Mario's Up Smash on his head​

Yoshi's Jab on his... legs?​

Yoshi's Dash Attack on his head​

​

​

Ice Climbers have invincibility on their up B. I've heard that Bowser's up smash has invincibility as well, but I've never confirmed it.​

​

Invincibility is less favorable than intangibility but it's still godlike. Sometimes intangibility can be useless (See: Zelda's Neutral B, though I've dodged things like Ike's foward smash with it before) but other times it can be amazing, and it's what makes Wolf's Down special one of the most amazing moves in Brawl.​

​

There are probably other things that affect priority, I'm just probably not thinking of them atm.​

​

(I hope some of you enjoy this possibly informative post. :x)​

 

[Psychoace]

I've been looking for that post.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

No problem! I'm glad someone enjoyed it.

Also, if anyone has any questions specifically on priority, I'd be happy to answer them btw.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm almost 100% sure that MK's neutral B on the ground can be clanked with and interrupted/cancelled (like he'll stop the tornado).

Just since you mentioned it couldn't be...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I actually can't remember. Hence the "I think". :3

Edit: Oh on the ground. Yeah that happens, something as pathetic as Jigglypuff's down tilt can cancel it thanks to the laws of priority in Brawl.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Zero Suit Samus is renowned for having a stupidly disjointed up aerial, with proper spacing (and being underneath the opponent of course), it's possible to beat out every other aerial in the game by hitting enemy hurtboxes with the disjointed part of her up air.

Doesn't every aerial beat every other aerial with proper spacing?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

no..........

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well, I'm just saying it works both ways. If Peach is inside ZSS, her nair is going to beat ZSS' uair, so it seems kinda pointless to single out ZSS' uair. Or if MK is below her, etc...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

no, theyll trade, peachs won't beat it out, this is common knowledge

 

[Ghostbone]

no, theyll trade, peachs won't beat it out, this is common knowledge

Peach wins the trade though.
And if Peach is below ZSS, her nair will hit ZSS and ZSS's uair will miss, obviously.

The point is more that, ZSS uair beats say, Peach's dair with certain spacing, Peach's dair beats ZSS's uair with certain spacing.

Saying an aerial beats another aerial with certain spacing is pointless as that applies to every aerial.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

you guys remember why they called you "grimbone" yeah?

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm glad someone bothered to post for clarity on the whole priority thing.
Brawl definitely has priority. It just has a different set of rules in comparison to Melee.

 

[Ghostbone]

Because everyone hates South Australians (online).

Edit:
Espy breaking up replies too good.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Because everyone hates South Australians (online).

No, it's because you both chime in together to argue about trivial things as if you need to back each other up.

The point is that ZSS's up air is a high priority move, as opposed to, say, Zelda's down air or Falcon's down air.

But whatever, continue to argue that "any aerial can beat any other aerial", I don't mind, but I will grab my popcorn.

 

[NickRiddle]

Technically couldn't we consider that a type of priority? If Olimar's upsmash beats Pikachu's down air, then Olimar's up smash has priority over Pikachu's down air.

pls

Priority absolutely, totally, 100% exists in Brawl.

1. The 9% Rule

A non-transcendent move when pitted against another non-transcendent move will clash, unless the damage difference between moves is over 9%. For example, a fully charged Samus Charge Shot will beat out Zero Suit Samus's Jab 1 because the difference between base damage is over 9%. However a fully charged Ganondorf forward smash will beat out a half charged Charge Shot and Ganondorf will continue with his forward smash as if the Charge Shot never happened.​

2. Aerials vs. aerials

This is a weird one, aerials can clash if they aren't transcendent, but cannot be cancelled so it comes down to which hitboxes are overlapping the enemy's hurtboxes. Example, Zero Suit Samus is renowned for having a stupidly disjointed up aerial, with proper spacing (and being underneath the opponent of course), it's possible to beat out every other aerial in the game by hitting enemy hurtboxes with the disjointed part of her up air.​

3. Aerial vs grounded

Basically the same as grounded vs grounded priority, aerials can cancel out grounded attacks, but aerials will continue, while the grounded attack will retract UNLESS the 9% rule is broken, in which the move with 9%+ damage will beat out the other move.​

4. Transcendence

This is a state of whether a hitbox can clash or not. Non-disjointed transcendent hitboxes (especially multi-hit) are usually very bad since it's easy to hit the hurtboxes. On the flip side, disjointed transcendent hitboxes are excellent since they usually will beat out other hitboxes by going straight to the opponents hurtbox (example, MK's down smash is fast and disjointed and transcendent, his down smash will beat out, say, Fox's because Fox's legs are hurtboxes, while MK's sword is not). This is why Zelda is so bad and Meta Knight is so good.​

​

Example: Zelda uses neutral aerial, almost anyone can trade attacks with this because of how small the hitboxes are and because it's multi-hit. If Peach trades neutral aerials with Zelda, assuming Peach doesn't simply outright beat Zelda's attack, they will trade. Peach will take 3%, while Zelda will take 14%.​

5. B Moves

These act like grounded moves. Special mention goes to Tornado which cannot be cancelled because it's technically an aerial. It can be beaten out though by the 9% rule or by hitting him with an aerial that doesn't hit his tornado hitboxes. I think.​

6. Invincibility and intangibility

The absolute God of priority. These moves literally cannot ever be beaten out. Very few of these moves are in Brawl, however some moves have certain areas of a character that are rendered intangible or invincible during them. I'll list a few examples:​

​

Spoiler

Examples of whole body intangibility:​

​

Wolf's Down B​

Zelda's Neutral B​

Meta Knight's Grounded Up B​

Bowser's Up B​

​

Examples of part body intangibility:​

​

Zelda's Down Smash on her leg and knee​

Mario's Up Smash on his head​

Yoshi's Jab on his... legs?​

Yoshi's Dash Attack on his head​

​

​

Ice Climbers have invincibility on their up B. I've heard that Bowser's up smash has invincibility as well, but I've never confirmed it.​

​

Invincibility is less favorable than intangibility but it's still godlike. Sometimes intangibility can be useless (See: Zelda's Neutral B, though I've dodged things like Ike's foward smash with it before) but other times it can be amazing, and it's what makes Wolf's Down special one of the most amazing moves in Brawl.​

​

There are probably other things that affect priority, I'm just probably not thinking of them atm.​

​

(I hope some of you enjoy this possibly informative post. :x)​

Aerials almost never clash, they only trade. (Exceptions being ZSS's nair and MK's glair for example) Also, A v G almost never clash either. (Except MK's dash-attack from what I've seen.)

B moves act as either projectiles, which are clashable if not transcendent, or their priority depends on where they do the move. (If you clash with MK's nado in the air, it thinks it's an aerial so it keeps going. If you clash with MK's nado on the ground it thinks it's a ground move so MK goes back to neutral)

Also, just a note, MK's nado cannot be beaten by aerials due to the % rule, it is beaten by hitting the top of it, or hitting it with a transcendent aerial. MK's nado can only be beaten by ground moves using the % rule.

Also, transcendent moves just don't clash, so they can be good and bad. (MK cannot fair away fireballs/Pit's arrows)

No, it's because you both chime in together to argue about trivial things as if you need to back each other up.

The point is that ZSS's up air is a high priority move, as opposed to, say, Zelda's down air or Falcon's down air.

But whatever, continue to argue that "any aerial can beat any other aerial", I don't mind, but I will grab my popcorn.

Any aerial CAN trade with any aerial assuming hitboxes and hurtboxes overlap on the same frame. You're confusing "priority" with frame data and disjoint. Very different things.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Probably because we are both right a lot of the time, and frequent similar threads. We don't have secret conferences where we discuss who will strike next lol, Ghost hasn't even posted in months.

I wasn't starting an argument over something trivial, I was just questioning the relevance of frame data and disjoint in a discussion about priority - as Nick Riddle also pointed out. GrimboneRiddle?

 

[NickRiddle]

Hiveminds.

 

[infiniteV115]

TL;DR the word "priority" in Brawl refers solely to the different types of hitboxes on attacks. The types determine when the moves clash, what moves they can clash with and what happens after they clash (depends on damage and whether the moves are in the air/on the ground). It explains hitbox interactions.
One move 'beating' another never has anything to do with one having better/worse priority; it's a matter of damage.

Saying this

If Olimar's upsmash beats Pikachu's down air, then Olimar's up smash has priority over Pikachu's down air.

Is equivalent to saying that PSI magnet has priority over Falco's lasers, ZSS' lasers/dsmash, Pit's arrows, etc.

And by that I mean that it's misleading because it has nothing to do with the "priority" of the moves because it has nothing to do with the hitbox interactions, but rather a unique property of the yellow pikmin hurtbox that causes them to absorb and nullify electric attacks without taking damage (that's what happens with yellow pikmin, right?)
It doesn't even need to be a yellow Pikmin attack. If Oli has thrown a yellow Pikmin with sideB and it doesn't latch on to the opponent (let's assume the opponent is a Pikachu), and the Pikmin is 'desynched' from Olimar (which means its hurtbox is now active and exposed) and is headed on its way back to Oli, a fsmash from Pikachu still won't kill the yellow Pikmin despite doing more damage than the Pikmin's total HP.
Same goes for red Pikmin and fire attacks (I know this has definitely happened with me using ZSS trying to kill a returning red Pikmin with a sideB2 and that ***** just walked on through)

The word 'priority' is bad enough because in the english language it has to do with something coming before something else. Translating that into Brawl terms would mean priority refers solely to one move being faster than another. But instead it refers to the hitbox interactions of attacks as outlined earlier. Doesn't really make sense on it's own but when you consider the idea that other fighting games actually have different levels of priority where one move will beat another move entirely because of priority (I don't actually know if this is the case cause I don't play other fighting games, I'm assuming it's true because it's the only thing that seems to make sense....someone confirm pls) and it'll have nothing to do with range/disjoint/speed, then it makes sense for Brawl players to apply the term priority to hitbox interactions in this game because Brawl's a fighting game as well (just not a traditional one) and a large part of the Brawl community plays other fighting games with actual priority (...right?)

Ok the TL;DR refers to the definition of priority, not the whole post XD

[collapse="Dammit Aero you got it all wrong"]

A non-transcendent move when pitted against another non-transcendent move will clash,

Nope, most aerials won't clash with ground moves.

-Some aerials can be cancelled out, eg ZSS' nair. I'm surprised you don't know this, you even used her as an example lol

-In reference to your 'aerial vs grounded' part, again, most aerials won't clash with ground moves. They just trade (ie both players get hit)

-B moves don't act like grounded moves, they act like ground/air moves depending on whether they're on the ground or in the air...I mean I thought that was pretty simple.
Don't believe me? Try out ZSS' grounded sideB vs nado, compare it to ZSS' aerial sideB vs nado.

-Invincibility and intangibility have nothing to do with hitbox interactions.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Priority, should in theory, explain the interaction between two hitboxes that collide in any situation where timing, range, miscellaneous oddities, etc... don't come into play.

So yeah, it really doesn't work simply for Smash at all.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its just a really general vague catch-all term for character attack interactions.

I use it to refer to interactions based on spacing, timing or power. But I really only use the term for sake of ease when people that im talking to already clearly know what Im talking about.

other than that, its mainly just a term for scrubs that dont actually understand the interactions of the game.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ok, I'm fairly certain that I'm right and you're all wrong, so I'm going to boot up frame advance right now.

ok so, THIS JUST IN, I was wrong about the aerial things, aerial hitboxes don't interact with normal non-special grounded moves or aerial moves.

That said, Nick Riddle brings up a valid point. What exactly is priority? I (and every other fighting game fan) consider the speed and disjoint of an attack to affect a moves priority. Zero Suit Samus's up air is a high priority move because it has several large hitboxes and comes out very fast, allowing it to beat out most attacks when used properly. Am I wrong? No. I'm not.

Nope, most aerials won't clash with ground moves.

-Some aerials can be cancelled out, eg ZSS' nair. I'm surprised you don't know this, you even used her as an example lol

-In reference to your 'aerial vs grounded' part, again, most aerials won't clash with ground moves. They just trade (ie both players get hit)

-B moves don't act like grounded moves, they act like ground/air moves depending on whether they're on the ground or in the air...I mean I thought that was pretty simple.
Don't believe me? Try out ZSS' grounded sideB vs nado, compare it to ZSS' aerial sideB vs nado.

-Invincibility and intangibility have nothing to do with hitbox interactions.

A couple of points here:

Regarding aerials being cancelled out: They can't. ZSS's nair will clash with aerials so long as they don't touch her hurtbox. It'll trade if it hits her hurtbox.

idk about the grounded vs aerial b moves

Invincibility and intangibility do affect the priority of a move. If you can't be hit while the hitboxes are out, it's not possible lose the trade, ever.

Case in point, try to beat Wolf's reflector with any move. Have fun with the reflector simply interrupting your feeble attempts to beat it with another move. That's why you have to shield it instead and punish it accordingly.

I think people have warped ideas of what priority really is. There's a priority system in Brawl; the 9% rule, but realistically hitbox placement, the speed of a move, transcendence and if a move has intangibility or not are all contributing factors to priority. This is 100% true. An unarguable fact of fighting games.

Edit: I'm scared that you'll actually try to argue that these aren't factors of priority, so here's a definition of priority that I found on the internet:

A descriptive measure of an attack's tendency to strike the opponent when that opponent is also attacking. In general, higher priority attacks always interrupt lower priority attacks. It's important to note that "priority" is usually simply a term of convenience - very few games actually have an internal mechanism that governs the resolution of attacks via priority. Instead, priority arises as a consequence of the characters' hit-box properties during a move. Typically, hit-box properties can lead to priority in two ways. First, during the move, the character's attacking hit-box can extends far beyond his target hit-box such that he can hit the opponent without being hit. Second, priority can arise when a move allows the character to attack another character while being invincible for a certain duration of the move (where such invincibility is usually the consequence of the complete absence of a target hit-box). An example of a high priority move is Ken's Shoryuken in the Street Fighter II series, a move which had extensive invincibility frames during its startup. In later renditions of Street Fighter II, the amount of invincibility frames was reduced, but even when not invincible, the attacking hit-box remained a great deal larger than the target hit-box for a relatively long duration of the move.

I have revised my old post for more accuracy.

Edit 2: It is interesting to note that Brawl has more of a priority mechanic than pretty much every other fighting game, and yet you all seem to think priority doesn't really exist in Brawl. This is weird.

 

[infiniteV115]

By 'cancelled out', I mean the hitbox on ZSS' nair is nullified if it clashes with something. The animation of the nair continues but it can no longer hit the person that clashed with it, unless they clashed with it using a projectile.

For grounded/aerial B-moves, try it out yourself with the example I listed; ZSS' sideB vs nado.

The intangibility on Wolf's reflector has nothing to do with priority because the intangibility isn't applied to the hitboxes, it's applied to Wolf's hurtbox. If there was no intangibility, it'd just be a regular transcendent move (it's transcendent, right?) and both parties would get hit.
Yes Wolf doesn't get hit, that doesn't mean the attack has high priority.

You're just arguing for a different definition of priority. And honestly I don't see why you insist on giving more merit to the definition you found on the internet than to the one I listed. I'm on the internet too, you know.
And my definition is fairly simple, while this one you listed has the clouded concept of high/low priority, which involves taking into account things like raw hitbox sizes, disjoint size, attack type (ie my 'priority'), invincibility, intangibility, super/heavy armor, etc into something you can't even quantify yet still insist on using terms like higher/lower priority with.

Tell me, what has higher priority, MK's uair or Marth's fair? How about MK fsmash vs ZSS dsmash?
Do non-Olimar grabs have the highest priority because they can 'beat' other attacks by grab armoring them?
Does a DJ nair from Yoshi have higher priority than Wolf's reflector just cause he can SA the shine's hit and then hit Wolf out of the shine with nair after the intangibility frames?
Does a move have higher priority than another simply because it beats that particular move?
In almost all situations where these 2 moves would be pitted against one another, Marth's dair would beat ZSS' dsmash. Does Marth's dair have higher priority than ZSS' dsmash?

Really it just sounds like the more 'priority' a move has (under your definition), the better the move is. Why don't you just say the move is good for multiple reasons rather than using a concept as foggy as 'high priority'?

 

[1PokeMastr]

Dk's Full Charged Punch, Though.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

it's 2am, too hard to argue about this

people who have played other fighting games will understand priority and probably agree with me, and that's good enough for me.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Brawl isn't a regular fighting game.

 

[FourStar]

so does anyone know who has the closest to even MU with MK?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I play marvel, street fighter, tekken, soul callibur, blazblue, guilty gear, virtua fighter, dead or alive, and probably like 5 more I cant quite remember, and I MIGHT agree with you, if I even knew what youre main argument/point was.

 

[Dekillsage]

so does anyone know who has the closest to even MU with MK?

No such thing as a close to even MU vs MK.
Ic's probably come closest in the japanese ruleset

 

[FourStar]

but who is pretty good against MK is all i'm asking

 

[infiniteV115]

In say, a japanese stagelist, ICs and Falco probably have the best MU.
In say, the Apex 2012/2013 stagelist, I'd probably give it to Pikachu cause MK pretty much has an auto-win against ICs and Falco since both Delfino and Frigate are options and only one can be banned.

 

[FourStar]

In say, a japanese stagelist, ICs and Falco probably have the best MU.
In say, the Apex 2012/2013 stagelist, I'd probably give it to Pikachu cause MK pretty much has an auto-win against ICs and Falco since both Delfino and Frigate are options and only one can be banned.

see i'm not crazy. pika has options aginst mk but only on certain stages. like on BF pika gets ***** by mk. but on frigate its a little closer

 

[infiniteV115]

You're clearly crazy cause Pikachu doesn't get ***** on BF. iirc ESAM thinks that BF is one of Pikachu's best stages against MK

 

[Dekillsage]

Shuttle loopington

woosh

 

[Get Low]

Do you guys remember when Dedede was fifth? Looooooooool.

 

[FourStar]

You're clearly crazy cause Pikachu doesn't get ***** on BF. iirc ESAM thinks that BF is one of Pikachu's best stages against MK

well that is ESAM we are talking about. from tournament experience i've seen so many pika's get taken down on BF. personally. BF is like one of my least favorites stages to play on even though i do pretty good there. idk i guess nor cal just doesn't have the quality pikas.....

 

[NickRiddle]

There is only one quality Pikachu.