Official SWF Tier List v8

[Dekillsage]

Curiously, what makes you say Razer doesnt know the MU

His neutral game, recoveries and approaches are poor vs ike. Doesn't take advantage of the fact many of ikes tools come from landing a jump in aerial. Doesn't throw grenades at ike's up b lol. It's hard for me to explain other than that. A lot of his problems comes from his habits as well, not only the lack of MU knowledge.

 

[Dekillsage]

I'm sure top Snakes are just getting buttloads of DK practice...

Sarcasm or? If not lol

 

[SoulJoker]

Sarcasm or? If not lol

I'd be surprised if it wasn't

 

[da K.I.D.]

Pikachu vs Ike. Because of pikachus small stature, and subsequent lack of horizontal range. Ikes general gameplan is really hard for him to deal with.

pika doesnt have the air speed to get around his aerials so most of the time, in order to get in pika has to take risks by running in recklessly and hoping the ike responds by doing a jump back fair that he can hit before it comes out, as opposed to just punching him in his little rat face for 16%.

since pika is small and low to the ground, it makes its a ton easier to space ikes nair so that its safe on shield as well.

pikachu is also very light, if youre not good at killing pikas momentum cancels help him a ton with his survivability, but if you get hit with anything by ike over say 110 or so, hes going to die before he has time to do any of that.

Pikachus run away game is also pretty ineffective as well, seeing as ike has the easiest time dealing with jolts out of maybe everyone in the game, since he can just hit A and create a 3 frame no-jolt-zone whenever he wants.

A lot of pikachus matchups can get a lot better by being unpredictable and throwing in some quick attacks and skull bashes from time to time. Against ike, most of that stuff just gets him up smashed, which he will die to around 80%

its not a terrible matchup, but pikachu has to play it by the book and very carefully, whereas ike has a bit more freedom with what he can get away with. once pikachu has ike in the air or offstage, pika can put on a lot of hurt. because the only way i can get down is by airdodging, going for a hard read down air, or quick drawing away, which pikachu is fast enough to punish anyway. ike also doesnt have good air speed, which makes thunder a huge threat.

plus, once he is offstage, aether gets gheyed by jolts super hard. and any attempts to quickdraw recover results in ike getting a face full of lightning from the sky.

essentially, ike imo has a big advantage at neutral, but on getting in on the opponent and getting them in the air, pikachu gets a lot greater of an advantage for a successful hit than ike does. thats why i think ike has a plus 1 on pikachu.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Yeah but CG too good.
And every other character except Mk can Jab T-Jolts.
Ike's Up Smash is frame 25, There are plenty of faster up smashes, DDD has a frame 7 U-Tilt with Invincibility.
Why is frame 25 so special ?
Might as well say Pikachu loses to Ganon because a Frame 24 Fsmash.

Oh okay.

"pika doesnt have the air speed to get around his aerials "

"which pikachu is fast enough to punish anyway. ike also doesnt have good air speed, which makes thunder a huge threat. ".

 

[da K.I.D.]

when I play sonic, I have to time my tiny little no hit box jab to meet an arching projectile thats coming at me at varying speeds. its easier for me to just power shield it, but now pika is running at me and im shielding,

ikes jab is fast, has a massive hitbox, and makes him lean forward so its super easy to do and requires no timing at all because you can hold A, and then after you clash, the best move to use against a pika that is trying to rush you while you deal with the jolt is just to jab again. the process is a lot simpler for ike than it is for anyone else in the game.

ikes use up smash in a position where there opponent is above them trying to get down. it out ranges every aerial in that position, out lasts airdodges to the ground, and can catch pikachu out of skull bash and quick attack, which makes him not use them, which limits his movements. pikachu with limited movement is not nearly as scary.

pikachu when he has ike in the air is at a great advantage because he can frame trap with jolts and up airs, and ike cant get around thunder easily. and if ike quick draws to try and get away pika will still catch him and punish just as hard.

ike when pikachu is in the air, is either throwign out big, high range moves or waiting to punish your options to get to the ground. if pika airdodges an aerial, he doesnt have the airspeed to use that dodge to get close enough to punish the aerial, so it resets the situation to neutral, where ike is at an advantage.

at neutral ike is +1, when ike gets in, its +2 for ike, when pikachu gets in, its -3 for ike.

Does that make it more clear?

Also, I feel that the CG doesn't do much for the matchup. getting the grab requires you to navigate the minefield known as ikes jab range, and all you really get out of it, is the same damage you would get on any low percent situation with pika.

 

[Blubolouis]

wtf did i just read

 

[1PokeMastr]

Do you hold shield after PSing something ? PSing basically acts as if you never shielded and nothing happened to you. And you can move a lot faster after PSing, Being SONIC and all, you know. Fastest dash in Game ?
Ike's Jab is frame 3.
Sonic's Jab is frame 3 or 2.
Both with respectable hit box sizes.
Ike's jab is pretty standard in terms of speed.
Mario/ Luigi/ Falco/ Sheik/ Peach/ Pikachu/ Fox and others all have a frame 2 jab.
Most of the cast then has frame 3, 4, 5, Or 8 (Ganon), 12 (DDD).
Also T-Jolt is slow as hell AND Powershield happens on frames 1, 2 and 3 when the shield is active.
Sound similar to any jabs we might know ? :3

Ike's Usmash lasts for.. 25 - 28 or 30. 5 frames at most.
Air dodges are usually +20 frames of invincibility. It only catches air dodges to the ground because of the slow start up, landing lag from air dodging to the ground. Not because it's greater than the air dodge.

EVERY MOVE IN THE GAME BEATS SKULL BASH IF IT HAS A HITBOX (Mario Cape/ Mirror Shield Omitted). Hell, even Rob can spike Pikachu out of it. With his frame 22 Nair :<
What good is Skull Bash anyway ? It's like beating a slow phantasm.

And if Pikachu T-Jolts, dashes in and Ike is jab spamming.
Pikachu shields.. Ike is now grabbed. :< So much for Ike getting in.

Edit: Just saw the "Quick Attack" comment.

So..

EVERY MOVE IN THE GAME BEATS BOTH THOSE MOVES.
Ike isn't special :3

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Ike isn't special :3

Ike killed a goddess, if that isn't special idk what is

 

[smashkng]

Ike's Usmash hits on frames 25-31. During the last 2 frames it has a hitbox that covers both sides and is stronger than all of the hitboxes before. Ike's jab certainly is shield grabbable. But IDK if Pikachu can shield a grab a spaced and non-PS'd jab because he doesn't have great grab range. But yes Ike does struggle against shields in general. Only Nair is truelly safe on block against chars with great ground speed like Pikachu and Ike needs space to throw that out (SH Nair is like 22 or 23 frames). AC'd SH bair rarely hits someone as small as Pikachu. Shield release and dash attack/dash grab is really effective against Fair and moves like tilts and smashes when you have a very fast ground speed. Ike has alright standing grab range but it is far from amazing and his dash grab sucks. Pivot grab is disjointed and more ranged than standing grab but its horizontal range is still not that amazing (its vertical grab range is however). Also ROB's Nair 18, not 22 frames, but it does last almost forever.

 

[pidgezero_one]

icies did 9/11

 

[Seagull Joe]

Ryo has already beaten Esam. is broken.

 

[NickRiddle]

ESAM has beaten Ryo the last couple of times they played. MU learned.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

How is Ike at all relevant? I mean half his moveset is free for even Ganon to punish on block and whiff.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

How is Ike at all relevant? I mean half his moveset is free for even Ganon to punish on block and whiff.

That doesn't matter too much. Look at snake. The guy needs like three moves. Grab, Ftilt, and nades and already more formidable than most people in the game. Something similar with Olimar. Fsmash, SideB and Grab covers so much utility on its own.

Besides mid tier sounds more interesting these days when top/high tier is a little stale.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Mid-tier is completely irrelevant from a competitive standpoint. The truth of the matter is that everyone below about ZSS gets **** on by the top tier, and for that simple reason will never be a competitive threat.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

And the tier list from a competitive standpoint is completely pointless too. How does knowing the more precise placing of a character help you at all in tournament? Actually, its the tournaments themselves which dictate the direction of the tier list too rather than the other way around. In the end, the tier list is for fun discussion and really nothing more. Your outcome in a match won't really depend upon how well you know their true placing at all.

With that in mind, bring on the mid tier discussion.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I now main mid-tier trash and am irrelevant.

 

[Luco]

Mid-tier is completely irrelevant from a competitive standpoint. The truth of the matter is that everyone below about ZSS gets **** on by the top tier, and for that simple reason will never be a competitive threat.

So what? Why can't we talk about him? What's wrong with that?

@Eryx: I'd argue that Olimar's Fsmash isn't THAT amazing over something like his Usmash. But that's just me.

 

[FredFuchs]

Mid-tier is completely irrelevant from a competitive standpoint. The truth of the matter is that everyone below about ZSS gets **** on by the top tier, and for that simple reason will never be a competitive threat.

only 3 characters **** on ike, and only 2 of them are top tier. remember, -1 means slight disadvantage

 

[da K.I.D.]

Do you hold shield after PSing something ? PSing basically acts as if you never shielded and nothing happened to you. And you can move a lot faster after PSing, Being SONIC and all, you know. Fastest dash in Game ?
Ike's Jab is frame 3.
Sonic's Jab is frame 3 or 2.
Both with respectable hit box sizes.
Ike's jab is pretty standard in terms of speed.
Mario/ Luigi/ Falco/ Sheik/ Peach/ Pikachu/ Fox and others all have a frame 2 jab.
Most of the cast then has frame 3, 4, 5, Or 8 (Ganon), 12 (DDD).
Also T-Jolt is slow as hell AND Powershield happens on frames 1, 2 and 3 when the shield is active.
Sound similar to any jabs we might know ? :3

Ike's Usmash lasts for.. 25 - 28 or 30. 5 frames at most.
Air dodges are usually +20 frames of invincibility. It only catches air dodges to the ground because of the slow start up, landing lag from air dodging to the ground. Not because it's greater than the air dodge.

EVERY MOVE IN THE GAME BEATS SKULL BASH IF IT HAS A HITBOX (Mario Cape/ Mirror Shield Omitted). Hell, even Rob can spike Pikachu out of it. With his frame 22 Nair :<
What good is Skull Bash anyway ? It's like beating a slow phantasm.

And if Pikachu T-Jolts, dashes in and Ike is jab spamming.
Pikachu shields.. Ike is now grabbed. :< So much for Ike getting in.

Edit: Just saw the "Quick Attack" comment.

So..

EVERY MOVE IN THE GAME BEATS BOTH THOSE MOVES.
Ike isn't special :3

if you think anything about sonic jab is respectable, I dont know what to tell you. the hit box on sonics jab is first of all, frame 3, and second of all far smaller than ikes, despite the fact that sonic is a cartoon character whos fists actually gett bigger when he punches stuff, compared to ike who is more realistic and doesnt do that.

and usually if someone powershields something and knows that another attack is coming directly after, yea, youre going to hold shield.

also, none of the characters you mentioned with 2 frame jabs to my knowledge, can Hold the A button and clash with jolts. I never said ike does things against pikachu that other people cant do. I just said he does a lot of them easier and more effectively.

Im sonic, I read a pikachu quick attack, I down smash him, it does like 14% and if hes over 100 it MIGHT put him offstage.
Ike reads a pikachu quick attack, he dies at 80.

See the difference?

oh, and btw, im pretty sure robs nair doesnt spike.

and as far as punishing air dodges with up smash, I know exactly why it does that, I dont see what you gain by arguing semantics.

theres an answer to every option in the game, quick attack is no different, every character can beat quick attack , just like every character can beat MKs tornado. But that doesn't mean that they will, nor does it mean that it is easy.

 

[1PokeMastr]

My Bad, I meant Dair.
Mario, Pikachu and Fox all can do what Ike does.
Same as Sonic and Snake and Falcon.

And why wouldn't you just PS the next attack ?
Holding shield seems counter productive after a powershield.

Dk for +2 Pikachu.

Strongest Dsmash in the Game = Dk.
Gogogogo.

 

[Delta-cod]

Maybe because you don't know exactly when the next attack is going to connect or what it's going to be?

What are you even trying to prove? This theorycraft is terrible.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Do you ever know when a next attack is going to be, when you're being attacked ?
Do you really ?

 

[Delta-cod]

Never with 100% certainty, but I know that when I get thrown by Kirby at low percents I'm typically gonna get utilted for it, so I SDI in advance.

In this situation, no, so holding shield is perfectly valid. This is why I don't see your point.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It just sounds to me like a bad player not understanding how a character as Terrible as Ike, could ever have a positive matchup against a high tier like pika. and then forming arguments and bad logic to supplement the conclusion rather than using the data objectively to then form a conclusion.

Im literally only speaking on what I've seen after watching pikapika and San play together for hours on end. if you want to tell me thats not high/top level matchup knowledge... once again, I dont know what else to say to you.

Speaking of things ive seen on this matchup, it also seem incredibly difficult for pika to get from the ledge back to the stage against ike. Which is something that pika very rarely has issues with.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

only 3 characters **** on ike, and only 2 of them are top tier. remember, -1 means slight disadvantage

If you're using the BBR MU chart as the be-all and end-all of MU discussion, sure.

Realistically speaking, the only top tier I'd say Ike can win at top-level is Pikachu, but I'm incredibly biased against Pikachu.
Crouch under my moves some more you little rat -_-

 

[infiniteV115]

Ike beating ICs and Snake at top level is not only realistic, but it's already happened. Ryo has beaten MVD, Razer and Nakat all within the past year.
I don't imagine Pikachu is anything more than a +1 for Pikachu either.

Ike's also even with ZSS and I wouldn't be surprised if he was evenish with Wario.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ike vs viable characters

gets destroyed by mk
loses slightly to diddy
even or wins vs ics
even or loses to snake

solidly loses vs falco
solidly loses to marth
solidly loses to olimar
loses solidly to ddd

please note, all 4 of those have been proven in high profile tournament settings to be very winnable for ike. and I can provide video references if necessary.

beats wario
probably slightly loses to zss.
... who else is in those tiers?
i mean just with that list alone, that idea of 'ike loses to everyone good' is pretty ignorant.

probably just another example of a lesser player assuming the outcome of a match up by comparing nothing but a characters tier position.

honestly, I put ike right up there with rob, and toon link on my list of "characters that could win tournaments but dont because MK is around)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Kid, if it means anything, I agree 100%.

Also, Ike vs. ZSS is pretty even. Ike does not lose by a lot, if at all (probably not at all).

 

[NickRiddle]

I'm seeing a super slight advantage to ZSS in my head now, and any advantage warrants +1 for ZSS.
It's super duper tiny, but it's there.

 

[Player-1]

diddy solidly beats ike

 

[FredFuchs]

just out of curiosity, for anyone at apex this year, who did nakat use against ryo. i'm asking since the video isn't on youtube

 

[NickRiddle]

MK and then Fox.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Ganondorf is the only man that can go out with other men and not be gay.

 

[Cassio]

Kid I dont mean to put down your opinion of the MU, only that with pikapika he tended to be more skilled through his strength as a player moreso than proficiency with pika and his MUs which can make analysis of him a bit dicey. I think he tends to state his as well.

I think the MU is a solid +1 pika, but Ike can really mess pika up if he doesnt respect the character. Ike has pretty strong damage output, good cover options and range, and a pretty strong grab game. Most annoying thing too is dying to a jab > uptilt at low percents which is a rather amazing kill set up. For pika, as with most characters with range, he will most likely want to condition ike away from a pure spacing strategy with moves like (stutter step) fsmash and dtilt, pushing him into more RPS situations that pika thrives on (however ike is certainly no slouch in this area either). Crouching and crawling is pretty useful here especially against aerials, and pika will want to keep in mind situation where he can abuse Ike's transcedent priority on his aerials with jolts. Of course ike has to deal with a few annoying things. Getting CG'd offstage to edgeguarded is pretty rough, in fact being offstage or in the air (as Kid mentioned) is pretty poor for ike overall. On the ledge ike has to play extremly cautiously as a well timed quick attack to the ledge is capable of gimping his aether recovery in most situations. However if he isnt gimped it can be annoying having to rack up damage on ike to kill him since he lives quite awhile.

One of the worst things ike has to deal with is pika's non-landed sh fair that, along with other not short characters like snake and ZSS, greatly hinders his ground game. Its electric priority outdisjoints jab, multi-hit eats spot dodges, and mobility allows him to either escape hits on shield or put the opponent in a guessing game that favors pika. The move itself is one of pikas best combo starters, even the last hit, and can lead into grabs and such. Fair is actually why pika does well against a strong portion of the cast since it provides him a tool to win at neutral and puts a knot against most characters games on the ground.

imo PS is almost always the best option vs jolt if youre on the ground.

 

[infiniteV115]

just out of curiosity, for anyone at apex this year, who did nakat use against ryo. i'm asking since the video isn't on youtube

MK and then Fox.

Oh, my bad then.

Also I don't agree with Ike losing solidly to Falco and DDD. I'm pretty sure those are both slight disadvantages (more specifically I'm pretty sure those are established as 55-45 MUs)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That fancy 2.0 MU chart gives a +1 to falco and a +2 with DDD. And to me makes sense. Throughout the whole match DDD gets lots of punishment off a single grab while Falco is pretty much getting chip damage the whole match against Ike.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Uh cassio, what on earth is electric priority? I'm fairly certain no such thing exists... As far as I know pika's fair really doesn't have much range or priority, it's more that it has a great lack of much landing lag allowing for huge combo potential also fairs fast multi hitting nature along with pika's good ground speed makes the move function really well where it probably wouldn't be as good on less mobile characters. I also doubt that pika can fair ike through jab, I could be wrong but at worst I would expect a trade.

Edit: ike definitely loses to ddd. Cg to edge on characters with bad recoveries is a dream for ddd. It really doesn't get much better than that. Going 55/45 for that mu does not seem realistic at all.

 

[infiniteV115]

Such a thing does exist. Yellow Pikmin absorb and go through electric attacks (eg Pika dair vs Oli yellow usmash, Pika dair gets cancelled and Pika gets hit by usmash, whereas if this were any other non-transcendent aerial where the damage difference between the aerial and the usmash was 8% or less, they would just clash)

Same goes for red pikmin and fire attacks