Official SWF Tier List v8

[Bobwithlobsters]

Yeah kinda like ddd who is really held back only by his mu's with mk, ice climbers, and ddd. Other than those three he has a really strong mu spread. kinda like wario too with ddd and mk.
Edit: pidge I want your A game not your excuses...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Rob could be in the latter group but in theory his other matchups are so redeeming that his poor MK matchups shouldn't matter as much.

ROB is a good character with an unfortunate MK match-up rather than being a character who is beaten by MK because he's bad. That's basically it. MK's suite of tools happens to be everything ROB hates, rather than MK pooping all over his options because he doesn't have any. It's a very classically bad match-up. I think you could nerf MK to a significant degree such that he's mid tier (reduce his frame data or whatever else) and he'd still beat ROB just because of where his hitboxes are and how ROB's mechanics work.

Unfortunately his bad MK match-up affects him just as badly as other characters with bad MK match-ups. You could put him up so far as with Wario and it'd be fine with me, tbh.

 

[DeLux]

I wish Smashboards had a dislike button for some of the posts I'm reading in the last like 10 pages since my hiatus >_>

 

[Tesh]

Either you're with us or against us. I just assume anyone who didn't like my post must have disliked it.

 

[Osennecho]

Yeah kinda like ddd who is really held back only by his mu's with mk, ice climbers, and ddd.

Ummmm pretty sure the ddd should say Olimar....?

 

[Luco]

Ummmm pretty sure the ddd should say Olimar....?

Ddd is just on the mind! :3

Also I don't necessarily dislike things that I don't like...

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Ummmm pretty sure the ddd should say Olimar....?

I was trying to be funny... But in all seriousness I do agree that olimar is easily ddd next worse matchup but there has been some debate by the ddd boards on the mu. I'm not sure what the next mu chart is going to say but I think most ddd's think olimar is not at the same level as mk and ice climbers. I was trying to get at the ddd ditto is one of the stupidest mu's in the game...

edit: also I am curious as to who has been posting the things that delux finds dislikeable. I sure hope it wasn't me.

 

[NickRiddle]

ROB also has a horrendous ZSS MU.
MK has nado so it's terrible, but ZSS has an infinite.

 

[Tesh]

well at least rob can try"in your face" way of destroying ROB that doesnt leave options open

 

[pidgezero_one]

Yeah kinda like ddd who is really held back only by his mu's with mk, ice climbers, and ddd. Other than those three he has a really strong mu spread. kinda like wario too with ddd and mk.
Edit: pidge I want your A game not your excuses...

My A game has moved onto bigger and better things. I'm really into ice sculpting now. Today I made a mold of my own butt.

I wish Smashboards had a dislike button for some of the posts I'm reading in the last like 10 pages since my hiatus >_>

You could just infract all the posts you don't like.

Actually don't do that, I don't want to get banned

 

[Dekillsage]

ROB also has a horrendous ZSS MU.
MK has nado so it's terrible, but ZSS has an infinite.

Mk is still worse for rob.
v-v

 

[ぱみゅ]

MK is everyone's worst Matchup, he at least +3's everyone.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So a +3 is like what? a 70:30 match-up?

So....
MK vs MK
70:70 match-up. Wow amazing.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

So this has been brought up a few times now about how zss bodies rob due to this infinite but I have not heard at all why this infinite is mu deciding while he arguably has a winning against ice climbers who also infinite him. Is this infinite way easier easier to set up compared to the grab that ice climbers need?

 

[Dekillsage]

Rob has a 4 frame throw and his body is that stick body of his. Ic's have trouble grabbing him and rob has the perfect tools to kill nana off a simple back throw.

Also the reason why MK is worse is because rob has 0 ways to beat MK at neutral. No legit ways to beat nado and he can't land or recover vs him. Can't trap MK into kills either. There is almost nothing rob can do.

Vs Zss he still has tools. He can play the neutral game and "avoid" the infinite (shouldn't happen all three stocks). I don't think its 7:3
but if you call zss vs rob a 7:3 then rob vs Mk is a 8:2
That's just my opinion though.

 

[Tesh]

the infinite sets up out of dsmash, that move with the big ass range , damn near lagless and whatnot.

he also or less loses to her in the air too, she is too quick for him overall the infinite is just gravy for her, much like DDDs infinites on mario, luigi dk etc. he beats all of them anyway

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS also juggles the crap out of ROB and ROB can at least kill Nana when playing against ICs. No such tactic exists against ZSS, she can always infinite him.
It's a dsmash infinite btw; you know, that big, transcendent move that's safe on block and really good and stuff. More specifically it's an infinite that only works when ZSS dsmashes a grounded ROB.
I don't know about it being his worst MU (I could see MK being a worse MU) but I'd say it's at least +2 ZSS, mostly because of the infinite

Ninja'd by 2 people

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's with her Dsmash, which is way safer than IC's grab, plus ROB can separate Climbers well and mess with their strategy, while can fall for ZSS' traps at any moment.

@Eryx: MK:MK is 100:0, MK will always win, no matter what.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Rob has one one of the best keep away games in this game along with decent close quarters combat and great mid range game. To say the infinite completely changes the mu to 7:3 seems a bit over the top. Grabs are going to be easier to land than a down smash... Is it good? Yes. As good as ddd's or ice climbers infinites? that's a stretch...

 

[Dekillsage]

Rob's keep away game is a joke sadly. His cqc game is surprisingly one of the best ones I feel.

 

[Luco]

It's with her Dsmash, which is way safer than IC's grab, plus ROB can separate Climbers well and mess with their strategy, while can fall for ZSS' traps at any moment.

@Eryx: MK:MK is 100:0, MK will always win, no matter what.

So all dittos are 100:0?

Jamwa I concede defeat.

 

[Tesh]

rob doesnt really play keepaway against most characters, its more about being able to retreat safely to places alot of characters can't. especially against ICs

its not a strategy that does much of anything to ZSS, you can avoid the dsmash, but she is still faster than you and chases you down pretty well so its not as simple as run away and shoot at nana, samus is an independent woman that dont need no man.

mks overbearing qualities in the matchup cant be hidden from.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Rob has one one of the best keep away games in this game along with decent close quarters combat and great mid range game. To say the infinite completely changes the mu to 7:3 seems a bit over the top. Grabs are going to be easier to land than a down smash... Is it good? Yes. As good as ddd's or ice climbers infinites? that's a stretch...

The infinite changes the MU from 65-35 to 70-30 in ZSS favour.

tbh I feel that the ZSS and MK Matchups are pretty similar for ROB. Both juggle ROB to hell and back, both can easily chase ROB down, the difference is that MK has Nado and can gimp ROB more easily, while ZSS has an Infinite.

I feel that MK MU is easier than ZSS, I've never felt that I lost to an MK with ROB when I could have won in MK dittos or with Falco. When I lose to ZSS with ROB I always think "I maybe could have won with a different character"

But I've always had weird thoughts about MUs so you can ignore everything I just said if you so desire

 

[Tesh]

imo the dealbreaker for zss being worse than mk is she doesnt really have an approach. and her major damage comes from overzealous approaching from ROB

ROB can at least try to space her and keep her out, MK just flies in and says "oh you thought you had a shield? then juggles you suuuuuuuper easy.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Idk just don't see the rob zss matchup as 35:65 before the infinite. She doesn't have the tools to shut down his neutral game like his other bad mus do. most characters get juggled to here and back again when tring to recover. That is really half of this game at this point... The only characters that get to say no to that are basically mk because mk and wario because of his mobility and maybe jiggly puff for the combination of the two. Other than that most everyone gets juggled.

The real question has become the neural game which I feel is actually one of robs strong suits.

Second question, what are these mu ratios translating to in the +/- system? 65/35 is somewhere like an easy -2 while the 70/30 is a solid -2? Or is the 70/30 more of a -3?

 

[1PokeMastr]

http://www.twitch.tv/acgamesonline/old#

 

[NickRiddle]

The +/- scale doesn't directly translate to the #/# scale.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

The +/- scale doesn't directly translate to the #/# scale.

That's exactly my problem. I'm much more accustomed to the +/- system and don't feel talking about 65/35 vs 70/30 isn't measurable. The difference is too close for it to be noticed do to basic error in our measuring system from basic input error by players and player skill. I like the +/- system better as it fits much better with our measuring precision.

To that end I am not sure I see rob losing to zss -2 before the infinite. I think it is more like a 0 personally...

 

[Dekillsage]

Without the infinite zss wins but not by much. With the infinite she def gets a boost (around the 65-35 range). Not because she can 0-death rob but more that she forces rob to limit himself.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MK beats ROB +3 due to completely ignoring all of his defensive options and punishing him hard
ZSS beats ROB +2 due to punishing him hard and not being one of those characters that ROB can just ftilt/grab/laser/gyro all day (due to her speed and just the way she works in general)

ROB can still go an entire match without getting hit by dsmash if he plays patient enough (and it doesn't really limit him, the situations where he could get infinite'd would still be hard punished even without the infinite, so he wants to avoid them just as much); MK can chase him down and force a mistake, ZSS has to hope he makes a mistake.

And it's like +1 if the ZSS can't do the infinite consistently, which would apply to most ZSS mains because who is going to practice an infinite on ROB lol

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

And it's like +1 if the ZSS can't do the infinite consistently, which would apply to most ZSS mains because who is going to practice an infinite on ROB lol

The ZSS mains where I live

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And it's like +1 if the ZSS can't do the infinite consistently, which would apply to most ZSS mains because who is going to practice an infinite on ROB lol

It really isn't hard

 

[Luco]

It really isn't hard

Is this the Dmsash ---> footstool ---> Dsmash infinite we're talking about?

Cause I found that hard.

Then again I only use ZSS as a fun tertiary and I have no idea how to JC with her hah.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Is this the Dmsash ---> footstool ---> Dsmash infinite we're talking about?

Cause I found that hard.

Then again I only use ZSS as a fun tertiary and I have no idea how to JC with her hah.

Dsmash
turn away
Jump up and back, and slow fall onto rob's head
footstool and c-stick down quickly, this is probably the hardest part, but it's not that technical, it's just fast
baby paralyzer twice to unstale dsmash, and for timing
repeat

 

[NickRiddle]

The only problem is that variation works after 50%.
You have to turn > SH > FF > footstool to get it before 30%.
And you can d-smash > footstool > f-tilt before that.

 

[infiniteV115]

At low % you can also just run up, footstool > dair/downB > b-reverse laser...and maybe throw in some ftilts/dash attacks for free damage I guess

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I doubt it's hard with practice, but I've never seen someone just pick up a controller and do it 0 to death.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I've never seen someone just pick up a controller and do it 0 to death.

i did it

 

[NickRiddle]

I practiced the infinite for about 2 hours before I could get 50 - death consistently.
Now I need 5-10 minutes every few weeks to refresh my muscle memory.
It's really not hard, people are just lazy.

 

[Minwu]

so i had instant ramen and doritos for dinner last night and i was like "this must be how it feels to main samus or link"